Young?

[WahKeen]

How's about this. I appreciate proper spelling and grammar (though I know I flop at times in this regard, I try not to), but I won't bug you if you don't follow "proper" grammar. Its appreciated, but I'm not going to get in a twist over it. I'm going to refrain from correcting grammar from here on out, its your choice, I'd like it, but so long as you get the point across I'll survive.

 

Goodnight

 

Dats whut im sayin' + 1

[MrNylon]

Kids today have more pressure heaped on them. They're growing up faster, and education has changed, for better or worse.

[brad1]

Kids today have more pressure heaped on them. They're growing up faster, and education has changed, for better or worse.

How do they have more pressure? I'm so tired of hearing this BS.

Can you please back up this statement with some facts.

[milod]

I s'pose it's inevitable that I'd see this thread and add a comment. Sorry this is so long.

 

I'm not a teacher nowadays, and when I was teaching martial arts and unarmed combat instructors, one of my more serious subjects for instructors-in-training was grammar and enunciation.

 

Why? Because my wish was that they would increasingly inspire the respect due them as excellent and caring teachers. Yes, we got into learning theory and the technical side of things from kinesiology to specific techniques of physical and mental training, but that carries far more weight if it's spoken with good grammar and speaking voice.

 

Younger kids? I don't teach nowadays and have no offspring, but I think they're as bright as kids ever have been; the bell shaped curve almost certainly has changed little.

 

But I think a lot has to do with some changes in culture that also has teachers dressing very informally in comparison to when I was "a kid." I'm guilty too. Some 45 years ago I wore coat and tie as a news reporter. Today it's jeans. That's the cultural change.

 

Yes, texting and such have dumbed down the language. I'd say it's not so much the fault of "kids," however, as the entire culture around them. I'll admit that at a cattle branding, my grammar isn't what one might use when writing an essay on a point of philosophy.

 

Lewis and Clark's Journals are masterpieces of mapmaking and understanding of botany and zoology. Neither man was formally educated in the sense we think of it today, but both were brilliant. Consider other skills: They took a company of frontiersmen into terra incognita among even warlike peoples and did so with virtually no incident and with loss of only one man from an illness we're still uncertain about.

 

But their spelling was, shall we say, inconsistent.

 

The weakness of a forum such as this is that the old guys actually do respect the intelligence and potential of younger guys. They want them to be respected for the talent and interest and potential due them as developing musicians and human beings. Speaking well is part of gaining that respect, like it or not.

 

So... young guys, if some older guys do seem a bit harsh, it's only because their hopes for you are perhaps greater than your own. Perhaps their hopes for you are greater than their hopes for themselves at their own point in life. As guitar players, you younger folks are seeking to learn, to experience, to improve. That's also what an old, gray haired and creased-face guy like me aspires to.

 

Some of us will find "success" accompanied with money, some won't. But "success" is a matter of feeling decent about yourself inside; not complacent, but that, in spite of being jostled and bumped, there is something of worth inside that can be valued.

 

I won't paste the entire poem. Here's a web reference if you haven't read it. You should.

 

http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm

 

The last words in the poem say it well, but fewer words express the same thing. When the rodeo pickup man picks up a saddle bronc rider who didn't get the best bucking horse, but who got the best score out of his draw even if he's out of the money, the pickup man still says: "Good ride, cowboy, good ride."

 

Here's Kipling's take:

 

"If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,

if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!"

 

m

[surfpup]

I'm not a teacher nowadays...

 

Here's Kipling's take:

 

"If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,

if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!"

 

m

 

Yes, Milod, you are a teacher nowadays.

[tng6664]

ok guys,,lighten up, for real are we here to talk and discuss proper grammer or guitars,amps,pedals,strings..If I offend you,well I opologize,If you want to criticize ,,If it aggravates you that bad you need to loosen your tight butt up.My opinion is that stuff like this is a big part of a problem we have nowadays.if you can understand it then what the hell does it matter,are you really that uptight.

[Shnate McDuanus]

I can only speak for myself here, but I'm eighteen years old and I have never been criticized by anyone about my speaking abilities or my writing abilities. I capitalize, punctuate properly and use correct spelling and grammar in text messages, for the love of deity. I don't mean to brag, but I've written short fiction which has been compared to the works of Kurt Vonnegut, Norman Mailer, Tim O'Brien and Bret Easton Ellis. When I use a word, I make damn well sure that I know what it means and I know how to spell it, without the use of a spell-check function. I was accused of "painting with a broad brush" somewhere here on the forums--if I didn't know not to question authority (which, by the way, is apparently selected solely by how many years you've lived) around here, I'd lay that same claim on a few of you. I've done some excellent things in my eighteen years, and I'm proud of these achievements. I wrote a short theatrical piece for an independent theater festival in New York City. It was produced and performed five times during a one-week engagement as part of that festival. When the week was over, guess who won first place? When it came time for me to leave high school (during which, by the way, I got an SAT score that was well above-average, on my first and only attempt) I got very generous scholarship offers from several highly-rated liberal arts colleges from all around the country. I know that this thread was not directed at me, and I know what this thread is about, but I insist that the premise on which this thread is based is flawed. Again, not to wave my **** around here, but tell me: do I seem stupid to you?

 

I've seen posts here by adults who claim to know better, who claim to have been through it all, who claim some sort of special, innate ability based on their experience, which have been poorly-written and practically nonsensical. These posts have been written by adults in their thirties and forties who can't spell simple words or who make ludicrous statements based on poorly-informed prejudices. I can't give specifics because of the rules of the forum, but, I assure everyone on this forum that poor spelling and poor grammar are not symptoms of youth in and of itself. Symptoms of the environments in which individuals have been raised? Probably, yes. A sign of the times? Definitely. But something that anybody over thirty is automatically and categorically innocent from, and something that anyone under thirty is unequivocally guilty of? No, no, no. That's a fallacy, plain and simple. It's not about age. I've had professors--brilliant ones--who were worse at spelling than I am. They were also all over the age of thirty. I can't abide this sort of ridiculous premise.

 

What I will say about youth, though, is that it's hard. I won't say that the youth of today endure more pressure than the youth of previous generations. I will say that growing up isn't easy. I've been confused, I've been stressed, I've been anxious, I've been awake at five o'clock in the morning, lying in the fetal position on my dorm room floor in a cold sweat, locked in the throes of a panic attack. I'll admit that I have a lot of growing up to do--I have to learn how to treat others fairly and equally, I have to learn how to manage my time, I have to learn how to function in the "adult world." I have to finish college, get a job, find a place to live, and find myself. I'm distracted by sex, I'm distracted by music, I'm distracted by illicit substances, I'm distracted by my fears and my dreams and my anxiety. Every day I have to own up to the painful fear that I will never be able to live up to all of my dreams, and every morning I get out of bed, look in the bathroom mirror and ponder all of the reasons I have for hating myself. I have been criticized, quite justly and appropriately, for rash, irrational behavior and extreme sensitivity to what others think of me and how others treat me. But you know what? The maxim that I live by is this:

 

If you think life is easy, you aren't living.

 

The world is confusing, and eighteen is a confusing age to be. I know I've derailed the thread horribly by now, but I just want to remind everyone who may have forgotten (or remembers but doesn't care) what it means to be eighteen and scared, eighteen and distrustful, eighteen and in severe emotional turmoil, just about every day.

 

Oh, and if you respond to me with one of those old gems that have been pulled out on me so frequently:

 

-Take a Midol

-Time for a nap

-Shhh, the grown-ups are talking

-Looks like you've had too much caffeine

 

Then, frankly, I have no way to respond but with a big "**** YOU." Growing up is hard, and it's only made harder by self-righteous b*stards with axes to grind.

[retrosurfer1959]

Strange how one of the most argued topics on this guitar forum is on spelling and grammar. Leave it alone already - at least half of these posts are done on handheld devices or in a hurry as part of a conversation not as a formal writing process.

 

The continual harping is getting pretty silly and at least as annoying as the bad grammar.

 

I don't think intelligence and typing skills on a guitar forum have much of a relationship. I understand what Dem00n and the other younger posters are talking about at least 90% of the time which is more than I can say for some others here.

 

I have some posted some doozies on here "thanks mostly to the keyboard on my IPad" that I can barely even read later without cringing myself and it's not based on lack of knowledge, I graduated Summa *** Laude from one of the worlds most prestigious schools, I know better but honestly sometimes;

 

I just don't care it's a GUITAR FORUM relax.

[Silenced Fred]

I can only speak for myself here, but I'm eighteen years old and I have never been criticized by anyone about my speaking abilities or my writing abilities. I capitalize, punctuate properly and use correct spelling and grammar in text messages, for the love of deity. I don't mean to brag, but I've written short fiction which has been compared to the works of Kurt Vonnegut, Norman Mailer, Tim O'Brien and Bret Easton Ellis. When I use a word, I make damn well sure that I know what it means and I know how to spell it, without the use of a spell-check function. I was accused of "painting with a broad brush" somewhere here on the forums--if I didn't know not to question authority (which, by the way, is apparently selected solely by how many years you've lived) around here, I'd lay that same claim on a few of you. I've done some excellent things in my eighteen years, and I'm proud of these achievements. I wrote a short theatrical piece for an independent theater festival in New York City. It was produced and performed five times during a one-week engagement as part of that festival. When the week was over, guess who won first place? When it came time for me to leave high school (during which, by the way, I got an SAT score that was well above-average, on my first and only attempt) I got very generous scholarship offers from several highly-rated liberal arts colleges from all around the country. I know that this thread was not directed at me, and I know what this thread is about, but I insist that the premise on which this thread is based is flawed. Again, not to wave my **** around here, but tell me: do I seem stupid to you?

 

I've seen posts here by adults who claim to know better, who claim to have been through it all, who claim some sort of special, innate ability based on their experience, which have been poorly-written and practically nonsensical. These posts have been written by adults in their thirties and forties who can't spell simple words or who make ludicrous statements based on poorly-informed prejudices. I can't give specifics because of the rules of the forum, but, I assure everyone on this forum that poor spelling and poor grammar are not symptoms of youth in and of itself. Symptoms of the environments in which individuals have been raised? Probably, yes. A sign of the times? Definitely. But something that anybody over thirty is automatically and categorically innocent from, and something that anyone under thirty is unequivocally guilty of? No, no, no. That's a fallacy, plain and simple. It's not about age. I've had professors--brilliant ones--who were worse at spelling than I am. They were also all over the age of thirty. I can't abide this sort of ridiculous premise.

 

What I will say about youth, though, is that it's hard. I won't say that the youth of today endure more pressure than the youth of previous generations. I will say that growing up isn't easy. I've been confused, I've been stressed, I've been anxious, I've been awake at five o'clock in the morning, lying in the fetal position on my dorm room floor in a cold sweat, locked in the throes of a panic attack. I'll admit that I have a lot of growing up to do--I have to learn how to treat others fairly and equally, I have to learn how to manage my time, I have to learn how to function in the "adult world." I have to finish college, get a job, find a place to live, and find myself. I'm distracted by sex, I'm distracted by music, I'm distracted by illicit substances, I'm distracted by my fears and my dreams and my anxiety. Every day I have to own up to the painful fear that I will never be able to live up to all of my dreams, and every morning I get out of bed, look in the bathroom mirror and ponder all of the reasons I have for hating myself. I have been criticized, quite justly and appropriately, for rash, irrational behavior and extreme sensitivity to what others think of me and how others treat me. But you know what? The maxim that I live by is this:

 

If you think life is easy, you aren't living.

 

The world is confusing, and eighteen is a confusing age to be. I know I've derailed the thread horribly by now, but I just want to remind everyone who may have forgotten (or remembers but doesn't care) what it means to be eighteen and scared, eighteen and distrustful, eighteen and in severe emotional turmoil, just about every day.

 

Oh, and if you respond to me with one of those old gems that have been pulled out on me so frequently:

 

 

 

Then, frankly, I have no way to respond but with a big "**** YOU." Growing up is hard, and it's only made harder by self-righteous b*stards with axes to grind.

 

Wow, that's cool man. If you ever get around the Chicago area, I think you and my one friend would get along amazingly, he has also written tons of plays and short stories and has had them published. That's really sweet.

 

To tack on to XDemon and ride off of his coat tails (since I am not as eloquent with my words as he is, I try but if I'm posting on a forum and not getting paid to write, I probably won't spend as much time on it) growing up is tough. I know the easy thing to say is "man up, we all had to do it" but we live in a different time. My parents constantly tell me that its no longer that you graduate high school, graduate college then there are jobs out there waiting for you. I don't know what I'm going to do, my passions are writing, journalism and guitar and all of those are very unsure careers. Most newspapers are going bankrupt and there are giant waves of massive layoffs of whole sections abounding.

 

I believe XDemon made a great point because like I said earlier, if you don't give us any respect, how are we supposed to respect you? You grew up with the "question authority" idea in your minds and it has continued and grown. So we question it, and instead of answering, we just receive pissed off messages that when condensed down pretty much say "don't respect me" and we don't. All these talks about how times have changed often start with guitar, or gear, or the latest electronic thing, but also for people. It's not 1970 when you were 18 like myself and XDemon.

 

I have won awards for my writing and have had them published and could either have an internship or job lined up with a well read magazine within a year or so. Since, all that matters on this forum is spelling and obviously not guitar playing, should we instead post videos of us writing? Of us practicing writing? Have threads of "here's your subject, now write an essay in 20 minutes or less and publish it"?

 

And I agree with retro, I post a lot of the time from my phone as many others do mainly because I'm out somewhere and I'm waiting for something and I'm bored. Before someone jumps down my throat and says "that's the problem with kids these days, always on those damn phones" I'll stop you there. Its not just kids, its the age we live in. If you don't like technology, make your t shirt that says "proud luddite" on the front and walk around without a cell phone, laptop, car, etc.

 

And I would say most of the people who this thread was made for have steered clear... interesting observation

[Shnate McDuanus]

I'd also like to note that I was extremely tired when I wrote that. Looking on it now I can't believe I got that passionate about something so trivial.

 

That's one of my problems--I get passionate about trivial matters far too easily.

[TommyK]

Youngsters of the X, Y and Z generation work under the assumption that if it is on a computer it is infallibly accurate. If it has a digital read-out no greater accuracy can be had. Does it have a sweep second hand or an analog gauge? It's accuracy is suspect as it is old school.

 

They forget that their electronic marvels are the result of many man hours of sweat and toil and questioning accuracy. They believe that since it is a machine it is infallible. But they forget that these machines are man made and as such are prone to error and inaccuracies.

 

The humans who developed the machine languages, the assembler languages are now leaving us. These assembler programs have been copied, copied and re-copied deep within the bowels of the programs that allow us to communicate and add funny little smilie characters to our text. Some day, in our grand children's time these assembler programs will need tweaking or rebuilding due to inevitable corruption due to the vagaries of time. These chilluns will have to do some serious spelunking and reverse engineering in order to fix a broken system they have no knowledge of, the creators of which will be long dead. Good luck!

 

As far as communication skills. Too many of today's college graduates are horrible communicators, as they've sunken deep into jargon and abbreviation convenient for typing out a message with their thumbs, but to compose a simple article for the school news paper or a business letter? Some paragraphs are quite unintelligible.

[milod]

Actually I think rather highly of the young folks on here.

 

Music is good for the brain - especially experimenting and being exposed to different sorts of music. I think this forum is good for them because they are hearing things from one and two generations older than they are; it's good for the older generations (at least for me who has no children or grandchildren) to hear perspectives from around the world from people one or two generations younger.

 

Xdemon... Read TS Eliot's stuff on poetry "criticism" and I think you'll like the way he essentially said the same thing you said of your own material above. <grin>

 

m