Elias Graves Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 My Alleykat has developed a cup on the body. I took it to an authorized service center and was told I need to send it in for evaluation and that it will likely be replaced. Before I do that, however, I'd like to know how Epi handles replacements for guitars out of production. The Alleykat hasn't been manufactured for several years and there's no direct replacement. How does Epi handle that? Do I get to pick the replacement or is there some arbitrary crossover they use? Any experience with this sort of thing? EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crust Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Eli, I am interested in finding out about that also. I wonder if after an evaluation by who ever, they are sent somewhere (like that place that fixes seconds, broken headstocks... then resells to ebay/pawnshop dealers). I wonder if someone, somewhere might actually try to repair it if the guitar is no longer in production ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad1 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Why not ask Epiphone? I'm surprised that you haven't, being that you have obviously been in touch with them. Just because it's been out of production, does not necessarily mean they don't have any new ones around however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted April 12, 2011 Author Share Posted April 12, 2011 After I posted this, I asked myself "Why didn't you just ask the guy at Gibson?" :) So I sent him an email. Haven't heard back yet. And I guess I didn't want to sound like I'm angling for a Lennon Casino. :D If it did get replaced, another Alleykat would definitely be my first choice. In fact, I'm still undecided as to whether I even want to send it in. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigneil Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 AlleyKat, WildKat, and the new WildKat Royale, are all both available on their website. My link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 Not sure why the Alleykat is still there. It hasn't been made since 07 I believe. Regardless, the corporate answer from Gibson is that they will work with you to select an instrument of equal value. Pretty generic statement. Lawyers...what are you gonna do? EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennyman Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Any chance you could post pics of this "cup" you speak of? Is it just a cosmetic thing, or does it affect the playability / structural integrity of the guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 The body lies flat to this point. The cup follows this line. The cup, bend, warp or whatever you want to call it. At first, I couldn't see any other issues. Last night, however, I noticed that the tailpiece stud on the upper side is no longer sitting flush to the top. The body seems to have pulled down from the stud a bit leaving it proud of the top. Sigh. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigneil Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 I have seen a similar problem to this in another thread somewhere...? can't remember what the outcome was. I am off to have a wee search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 I have seen a similar problem to this in another thread somewhere...? can't remember what the outcome was. I am off to have a wee search Was probably me. I think I've posted that pic here before. I just now got brave enough to contact CS about it. Really hate to lose this guitar. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigneil Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Was probably me. I think I've posted that pic here before. I just now got brave enough to contact CS about it. Really hate to lose this guitar. EG AaaaaH, that's what it'll be. well you could look at it this way....As one guitar leaves you now have the opertunity to explore new guitar possibilities ... the current epiphone production line is your Oyster, and besides, they may still have Alleykats available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted April 14, 2011 Author Share Posted April 14, 2011 AaaaaH, that's what it'll be. well you could look at it this way....As one guitar leaves you now have the opertunity to explore new guitar possibilities ... the current epiphone production line is your Oyster, and besides, they may still have Alleykats available. I asked, but the CS guy won't answer that. Honestly, I can't get another Kat, I may not send it. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennyman Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Why don't you find a proper luthier nearby and let him take a look at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_edward Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Why don't you find a proper luthier nearby and let him take a look at it? To answer that question - because there's really nothing that can be done, I wouldn't send it to Epi, you'll never see it again, they can't fix it and will probably send you something "comparable" . Without getting into a far reaching discussion about how guitars are made, I will say that guitar manufactures constantly break the golden rules of cabinetmaking (which have been well known for literally 100's of years), and this Kat is a shining example of what can happen. That body has cupped for whatever reason (no time to get into that now) and based on the thickness of the body, IMO there's really nothing that can be done to flatten it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennyman Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 To answer that question - because there's really nothing that can be done, I wouldn't send it to Epi, you'll never see it again, they can't fix it and will probably send you something "comparable" . Without getting into a far reaching discussion about how guitars are made, I will say that guitar manufactures constantly break the golden rules of cabinetmaking (which have been well known for literally 100's of years), and this Kat is a shining example of what can happen. That body has cupped for whatever reason (no time to get into that now) and based on the thickness of the body, IMO there's really nothing that can be done to flatten it out. I don't mean to sound like a ****, but, what do you know about woodworking and luthierie? And I mean that in the most sincere and serious manner: If you're experienced in woodworking or in luthierie, please share some of your insights as to why there's "nothing that can be done". I ask as a fellow 'Kat owner, and if there's a structural flaw in the design, I'd like to know. (I'm a total layman when it comes to these things, so for me, I'd be thinking about cutting a dowel to the right length and gradually hammering it in to where the cuppage is, in the hopes of re-aligning the top & bottom. Luckily, I'd also like to think that I'm intelligent enough to recognize that this is a pretty "brute-force" approach and it just might be wise to consult with people more knowledgeable about such things.) In any case, I hope that I never have to deal with something like this on my 'Kat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted April 18, 2011 Author Share Posted April 18, 2011 Well, solid wood warps aesily. The thinner you make it, the more likely it is to become unstable. Given that this has occurred at a glue joint, improper drying is the likely cause. If two pieces of wood are joined, particularly without a dowel or joint, when one piece goes up or down in moisture content, it will expand differently than the piece next to it. When i make, say, a tabletop out of multiple pieces, they get dowels and glue to help stabilize them. You use some other tricks, like make sure you alternate the curve in the grain, reinforce where necessary and stabilize by the frame around it or below it. By hollowing out a big piece of mahogany (relatively soft) youre taking a chance. Thats why bent wood is more common in hollows. The bends and joints help stabilize things. The more i think about it, im kinda surprised this doesnt happen more with this style. Theres no bracing inside to hold things still. Im not going to take it to a Luthier. IF it's repairable, it will take time. The only way you'd be able to "fix" this would be to clamp it flat and gradually go tighter. It will either break or go back to shape. The costs involved arent worth it on a guitar of this price. Epi offers a lifetime warranty, which i'll void if i go messing with it. I'll take my chances with CS i guess. Shipping on tuesday. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 Been monitoring the Kat and it seems to be getting worse. The top has now bent down some with the back and one of the tailpiece studs is sticking up above the top. Talked to CS on the phone and they issues an rA with no hassle. They did say that a repair is not likely because of the price of the guitar. He couldn't say for sure, but figured another alleykat was unlikely and I'd have to choose a replacement from current inventory. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_edward Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I don't mean to sound like a ****, but, what do you know about woodworking and luthierie? Well, like I said “I don’t want to get into as long discussion,” that’s why I just didn’t say anything the first time EG posted this problem in another thread a month ago. But sometimes I read stuff on the net that make me shake my head, so here’s my 2 cents worth; I’m trained as a cabinet maker and have worked in the industry since the late 1970’s. I worked for years under numerous highly skilled cabinetmakers and have cut mountains of lumber into everything you can imagine. Currently I’m the general manager at an architectural millwork company where the CNC code I write cuts a couple of million dollars worth of product every year… so I don’t speak as a complete novice. I’ve been building guitars and guitar parts pretty much since I started working in the 70’s and I’m still at it, I just finished a guitar last weekend. About solid body guitars – in the guitar world 1 or 2 piece bodies are considered by everyone to be best, they have all the mojo and people constantly ask for them. The problem is that a one piece body has a higher chance of warping than its lower mojo cousin, a body made using numerous properly laminated pieces. It’s work and it’s wasteful to cut up a bunch of wood in 5 or 6 equal pieces, jointer the edges and glue up so it’s stable – most importantly it doesn’t look good under a clear finish and supposedly doesn’t sound good either. Leo and the guys just went for the wide boards and used as few pieces as possible because it’s the cheapest way to make a body and looks the best, never mind it’s not the most stable – funny, it turns out in the guitar world that the least amount of work is coincidentally, the most desired body – a 1 piece body. Although in this case it seems the reverse has happened – a laminated body has warped, that’s just on the surface of it, the key is that it has to be properly laminated and in the case of an Alleykat it’s challenging, you have; (1) Chambers (that are different shapes and volumes on either side of center). (2) Laminations in the core of different widths (golden rule #1a, broken). (3) A top of a different material and thickness (looking for trouble at best), that has been veneered over and attached after cambering. (4) An interior surface that’s unfinished and F holes that allow moist air inside This is not a “balanced” construction by any means, nor is a good idea to have wood exposed on 2 sides being finished on only 1 side (golden rule #2a, broken) warping is always a possibility, in this case it did happen. I think the only reason we don’t see more warping in the guitar world is that a solid body guitar is relatively thick for its size, and builders season the material extremely well – if Strat’s were built 1 1/4 inches thick, half of them would come warped to some degree right from the factory., I bet if we all put a straight edge across the back of our LP’s and SG’s some would find deviation. Sorry EG, but your Alleykat is toast IMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 They did say that a repair is not likely because of the price of the guitar. He couldn't say for sure, but figured another alleykat was unlikely and I'd have to choose a replacement from current inventory. Go for a Royale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 Well, like I said “I don’t want to get into as long discussion,” that’s why I just didn’t say anything the first time EG posted this problem in another thread a month ago. But sometimes I read stuff on the net that make me shake my head, so here’s my 2 cents worth; I’m trained as a cabinet maker and have worked in the industry since the late 1970’s. I worked for years under numerous highly skilled cabinetmakers and have cut mountains of lumber into everything you can imagine. Currently I’m the general manager at an architectural millwork company where the CNC code I write cuts a couple of million dollars worth of product every year… so I don’t speak as a complete novice. I’ve been building guitars and guitar parts pretty much since I started working in the 70’s and I’m still at it, I just finished a guitar last weekend. About solid body guitars – in the guitar world 1 or 2 piece bodies are considered by everyone to be best, they have all the mojo and people constantly ask for them. The problem is that a one piece body has a higher chance of warping than its lower mojo cousin, a body made using numerous properly laminated pieces. It’s work and it’s wasteful to cut up a bunch of wood in 5 or 6 equal pieces, jointer the edges and glue up so it’s stable – most importantly it doesn’t look good under a clear finish and supposedly doesn’t sound good either. Leo and the guys just went for the wide boards and used as few pieces as possible because it’s the cheapest way to make a body and looks the best, never mind it’s not the most stable – funny, it turns out in the guitar world that the least amount of work is coincidentally, the most desired body – a 1 piece body. Although in this case it seems the reverse has happened – a laminated body has warped, that’s just on the surface of it, the key is that it has to be properly laminated and in the case of an Alleykat it’s challenging, you have; (1) Chambers (that are different shapes and volumes on either side of center). (2) Laminations in the core of different widths (golden rule #1a, broken). (3) A top of a different material and thickness (looking for trouble at best), that has been veneered over and attached after cambering. (4) An interior surface that’s unfinished and F holes that allow moist air inside This is not a “balanced” construction by any means, nor is a good idea to have wood exposed on 2 sides being finished on only 1 side (golden rule #2a, broken) warping is always a possibility, in this case it did happen. I think the only reason we don’t see more warping in the guitar world is that a solid body guitar is relatively thick for its size, and builders season the material extremely well – if Strat’s were built 1 1/4 inches thick, half of them would come warped to some degree right from the factory., I bet if we all put a straight edge across the back of our LP’s and SG’s some would find deviation. Sorry EG, but your Alleykat is toast IMO... I agree. While I don't have your experience in wood, I have cut and glued maybe one small mountain of lumber and everything you said there is spot on. Regarding this design in particular, it's different. While I would call it chambered, in reality, the WHOLE thing is chambered except for one block under the bridge. Probably not a coincidence that this fold originated right up against the edge of that center block. The interior body is routed so that the back is about 3/16" thick and the sides are about the same. Combine that with the plywood maple top and you get all kinds of things that don't move at the same rate. That construction makes me hesitant to take another Kat of any kind. I fear it's a recipe for warping. Given that the body is constructed from at least five pieces of mahogany of varying widths, it's pretty easy to believe that they weren't all necessarily dried the same. One piece with some funky moisture or grain and something's gotta give. Regardless, I now must wait for gibson to pronounce it dead before I can move on. The guitar was fun, but I'm more likely to go with a full laminate body like a 175 next time. Plywood is stable. :) EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennyman Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Thank you, James, for your well-thought out and educational reply. I hope that my question wasn't one of those things that makes you "shake your head", I really was asking for an honest and rational answer from an experienced source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 Finally got everything set back to stock. Ready to go. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 Well, I had decided I was gonna hold on to the Kat as long as the warp didn't affect anything. Now it has. The stud is crooked on the tailpiece now. I thought maybe it had just pulled out a little, but it's set all the way in. The bass side of the body is where the warp is. I guess it's time to pack it up. Now comes choosing a replacement from current stock. I'm torn between a 175, 339 or Wildkat. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 That's a real shame Elias, doubly so, I'd hate to have to choose between those replacement options, leaning slightly towards the Kat though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Graves Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 Choosing is tough. I love hollowbodies, but the one 175 I've seen wasn't that impressive. One pickup mounting ring was backwards and the pots were all loose and scratchy. Not too big a deal, as I would likely replace pickups with single coils anyway, but I'm a bit suspect of the Indonesian workmanship. The Wildkat is tempting. I like the shape and feel of the Kat and I do like P90s. Plus, the Kat fits my style pretty well...especially if I could score a Royale. The 339 looks good, as the new pickups, plus what I've read from Epi, this guitar is supposed to rival the trad pro in terms of build. I like the trad pro models. A pelham blue Dot is a possibility, though it's a cheaper guitar and I'd be cheating myself somewhat. A Casino would be ideal, but it is a higher price point. I have a Gibson Junior with humbucker, so I'm not hurting for more HB gear. My custom tele in the works now has a P90 bridge and a Charlie Christian neck, though it'll be tuned baritone. Also have a Godin 5th Avenue acoustic that I may convert to electric. That'd take care of my hollowbody gas, probably better than the 175. The Wildkat might be my best choice. I like the master volume setup and the ones I've played sounded fine stock. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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