Theory - All levels, We can All Learn Something.

[milod]

You guys are making me feel like the ignorant old country boy who, when asked if he could read music, responded, "not enough to hurt my playin'." I think in large part that perspective is likely what brought the "nashville numbering system" of chords to the fore.

 

All kidding aside, I can read a bit - albeit I'm a horrid sight reader - but this thread has me trying to remember stuff from my early years in music rather than the later years. I've always kinda depended on my ear 'stedda paper - although sometimes the paper is wonderful to remind me of what my ear told me to do. It's been probably 50 years or more since I asked somebody what key they were playing in and they responded "three sharps."

 

I guess when I was teaching transposition it was pretty much "You're likely to transpose these:" I, IV, V; relative minors, etc., dominant of the dominant, subdominant of the subdominant... that one's most likely to encounter... plus a bit of just plain addition/subtraction. <grin>

 

But... I somewhat question the idea that a VII chord isn't used. The old swing "I'm getting sentimental over you" goes from C major to B major before hitting a more "traditional" progression. A "cowboy" piece I do goes from G to F# ditto. In neither case do I consider these "passing chords."

 

On the other hand, I'm not all that much of a picker.

 

m

[Andy R]

So back to the C.A.G.E.D. method. So back to the idea of playing in key means your playing the notes of the key your in and it would be handy to understand how to play the notes in that that key up and down the neck without having to think about it too hard. So as I said before to start with we will think of C Maj, A Maj, G Maj, E Maj and D Maj not just as chords in the open position but Chord forms or Shapes. Can you picture the Shape of your fingers when you play the chords in the open position? C reminds me of a "stair step shape" A reminds me of a "straight line", G Reminds me of a "big triangle" E reminds me of a backwards L and the D shape reminds me of a triangle on its side.

 

Regardless, the point is to think of the shape of these chords. Now think of what ( and where ) the root note of these chords are in the strings/shape you're playing.

 

C Shape it is your 3rd finger on the 3rd fret of the A string which is .... C!

A Shape it is the open A string

G Shape it is the 3rd finger on the 3rd fret of the Low E string which is ..... G! (depending on which fingers you use)

E Shape the root note is the open low E String

D Shape the root is the open D string

 

So let's think of the nut as a Capo and that's how we have determined the notes of the "Open Strings" and the notes that follow. So if you were to actually put a capo on the first fret and pretended it was the nut you would have different note names for what are now the "open Strings" So assuming "Standard A 440 tuning" Your open strings would now be (low E to High E string)

F, A#, D#, G#, C, F So you could still play the same chord shapes of C,A,G,E,D major but they wouldn't be named the same chord anymore.

 

C Form now = C# Major

A Form now = A# Major

G Form now = G# Major

E form now = F Major

D form now = D# Major

 

The point is the chord type ( major ) didn't change, The chord "Shape" didn't change just the root note that names the chord changed. So 1 more example. Lets move the Capo to the second fret and pretend it is now the nut, Now your open Strings are F#, B, E, A, C, F#

 

C form now = D major

A Form now = B major

G Form now = A major

E Form now = F# Major

D Form now = E Major

 

So again the idea is that we are using a familiar chord Shape/Form and making different Major chords.

 

It is exactly what your doing when you play Barred chords where you are using the low E string to name the chord or the A String to name the chord.

On the E string barre chords you are making the "Open E Form" using your first finger as the Capo/Nut and your remaining fingers to play an E form and sliding it up the neck to create different Major chords. Take your middle finger off and you are now playing an E minor form and all the chords become minor chords

 

Same thing happens on A string based Barre chords. You are using your first finger as a capo/nut and sliding the A Major FORM up the neck and creating different major chords. Again the point is to realize that whatever shape/chord type you can play in the open position remains the same type of chord be it major, minor, minor 7th, dom7th, etc..

 

So now that we have established that. There is a pattern that happens on the guitar that allows you to utilize the C, A, G, E, D form and play the same chord all the way up the neck. You will need to get used to playing these chord forms without using your 1st finger and some of them are a bit of a stretch but not too bad.

 

So Let's start with a C Major chord.

 

1. The first way to play it is in the open position using the C form ... Obvious

2. The next position way to play a C Major chord is to Barre across the 3rd fret with your 1st finger and using your remaining fingers to play the A form Shape

3. The next position to play a C Major chord is to barre across the 5th fret with your first finger and play a G form doing this will make the root of the G which will now be your ring finger which is playing the Root C on the low E String on the 8th fret

4. The next position will use the E Form and you will barre across the 8th Fret with your first finger and play the E form with your remaining fingers

5. The next position will utilize the D form you will barre across the 10th fret with your first finger at least from the high e to the D string and play a D form with your remaining fingers. My pinky shifted when i took the picture. It should be on the B String.

6. Next position uses the C form again with a barre on the 12th fret

7. Repeat the C, A , G, E, D forms until you run out of neck or can't smush your fingers together enough.

 

So Depending on what chord form you start with you will cycle up the neck through the next form in the pattern of CAGED

 

So a second example lets try B major up the entire neck.

 

1. The most Common B major most people play is the A Form barre chord on the third fret

2. So the next form up will be the G form where your first finger barre is on the 5th fret and you play the G form so that your ring finger is now playing the root B on the Low E string 7th fret

3. The next form will be the E form. Your barre will be across the 7th fret and you will play the e Form with your remaining fingers

4. The next Form will be the D form 1st finger barre across the 9th fret and remaining fingers make the D form

5 The next form will be the C form Barre will be across the 11th fret and remaining fingers play the C form

6. Again repeat until you run out of neck

 

So to Summarize take a look at the chord form you are playing C A G E or D and the next way to play the chord will be the chord form before or after it in the CAGED Sequence

 

So one last example if you are playing a D Major Chord using the A form Barre on the 5th fret then if you want to play the next lower form of D Major you will use the C form barred on the 2nd fret or if you want to play the next D major chord up in position you will play the G form barred across the 9th fret

 

So you may be saying ... Well that's pretty cool but is there anything else I can do with this C A G E D sequence other than play the same Chord up and down the neck??? Yes Actually there is. Because these chord forms are hiding in pentatonic scales, diatonic scales, and modal scales. Once you recognize where they are you can quickly shift keys as well as connect all the notes of the scales all the way up and down the neck just like you did the Chord forms. I will give you a hint the most common blues Pentatonic scales that people use either have the G form in them or the C form. There are also Pentatonic scales that have the A Form, E form and D form in them. So if you learn those patterns you can play and connect them just like the chord forms work.

 

I imagine if you did a quick search you could find the scale mappings and more information on the CAGED method but I highly recommend the Fretboard logic books and DVD. I will also answer any questions if I can.

 

 

Andy

[vourot]

Thanks for starting an interesting thread. I was about ready to punt this forum out of my bookmarks.

[stein]

You guys are making me feel like the ignorant old country boy who, when asked if he could read music, responded, "not enough to hurt my playin'." I think in large part that perspective is likely what brought the "nashville numbering system" of chords to the fore.

 

All kidding aside, I can read a bit - albeit I'm a horrid sight reader - but this thread has me trying to remember stuff from my early years in music rather than the later years. I've always kinda depended on my ear 'stedda paper - although sometimes the paper is wonderful to remind me of what my ear told me to do. It's been probably 50 years or more since I asked somebody what key they were playing in and they responded "three sharps."

 

I guess when I was teaching transposition it was pretty much "You're likely to transpose these:" I, IV, V; relative minors, etc., dominant of the dominant, subdominant of the subdominant... that one's most likely to encounter... plus a bit of just plain addition/subtraction. <grin>

 

But... I somewhat question the idea that a VII chord isn't used. The old swing "I'm getting sentimental over you" goes from C major to B major before hitting a more "traditional" progression. A "cowboy" piece I do goes from G to F# ditto. In neither case do I consider these "passing chords."

 

On the other hand, I'm not all that much of a picker.

 

m

Yes, to explain the use of 2 major chords a half step from each other and why and when it would make sense is WAY advanced, but needless to say, if and when it DOES occur, there are key changes happening.

 

What I was trying to explain (or avoid explaining while talking out my ***) is that the HALF DIMINISHED chord is not considered by many a "real" chord. It really only has a use in it being included as the 7th chord of a key. Agian, I digress to say there are reasons why it does not occur as a chord in practical applications.

 

So, to reiterate my point, it is not that it is the 7th chord, but rather it is the half diminished chord as why we can exclude it. And, in excluding it, we are lest with a total of 6 chords, and they are the I IV V of the major and the relative minor of that particular scale or key.

[mcmurray]

Great thread Andy.

 

Here's my brain dump: http://www.jsguitarforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56336

 

That was written 5 years ago, I've since refined my method a little. I've had success with students transcribing and playing by ear with no mistakes after as little as 10 weeks, so I'm confident it works as advertised (linking one's ear to the fretboard).

[Andy R]

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[zigzag]

I think it is a very good idea to learn major, pentatonic and blues scales, at the very least. The CAGED method was instrumental for me in remembering the order of the scale patterns. Once the scales became second nature, I forgot the CAGED patterns within that scale, but the CAGED method applies to all scale patterns.

[Andy R]

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[Andy R]

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[stein]

Give this a whirl and say why if you want...

I picked A Maj just playing a few chords by memory, no cheating!

 

BUT, NOW i AM GOING TO CHECK AND SEE IF i AM CORRECT.

[stein]

Just went back and listened to the song...I was wrong.

 

I don't want to blow the game for anyone, but I will note for technical purposes, there are 2 scales happening.

 

Supposing I am right.

[BoyVader]

Hey Matthew...please don't post anymore videos of your playing...I already feel inferior enough!!!

 

How long did it take you to get your playing to that level?!

 

You make it look so easy!!! Seldom do "lessons" sound soooo beautiful...

[Duende]

I am hungover and just picked the right key, but wrong tonality...oops LOL Also Judas Priest?? WTF LOL

 

Andy,

 

When you taught the guitar, did you go into this level of depth (and also use the 'caged' method). I am interested, as I teach very differently...But in the words of a great Chinaman "no style as style, no way as way".

 

My question to you is; If someone was very musical and had a great deal of musical intuition, would you still teach them this level of depth theoretically; or would you tailor the lessons towards their natural understanding of music.

 

Cheers and looking forward to hearing your perspective

 

 

Matt

[Duende]

You make it look so easy!!! Seldom do "lessons" sound soooo beautiful...

 

Cheers!

 

I am pleased you noticed the right hand's lack of tension!

 

I know religion etc is forbidden here, so I'll keep it brief, but while I am a Christian, I have learned LOTS from reading about Buddhism and applying it to my technique on the guitar and piano. I also have studied the stances etc of various martial arts fighters. It inspires me how a good fighter can be lightening fast and powerful; yet his body can still be calm and flexible! I alluded to Bruce Lee in my post to Andy, but Bruce Lee is a huge inspiration on my guitar technique! My fingers never ache, hurt etc and my body always feels relaxed. I swear by boiling hot baths and then practising straight after...your hands are so relaxed and it feels great!

 

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kimbabig]

Matt, the Bruce Lee thing would be hilarious if you didn't explain yourself and we didn't know how talented you were.

 

 

[Duende]

Matt, the Bruce Lee thing would be hilarious if you didn't explain yourself

 

we're all musicians here!...all a bit bonkers and deranged

[Kimbabig]

It's about time I get off my sorry *** and start learning theory. I leave in two days, but I'll definitely be anonymously checking this thread.

I'm organizing the information in this thread in a word document, printing it, hole punching it and putting it in a special binder.

 

 

It's 16 pages so far, keep it coming!

[zigzag]

See if you can find the CAGED pattern in this example of a C Major scale.

 

 

C A G E D

 

I apologize that I am not good enough with handling graphics on a forum to make more sense out of this graphic. I would recommend googling a site that shows scales and applying the CAGED system toward seeing and memorizing those scales.

[Andy R]

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[Andy R]

See if you can find the CAGED pattern in this example of a C Major scale.

 

 

C A G E D

 

I apologize that I am not good enough with handling graphics on a forum to make more sense out of this graphic. I would recommend googling a site that shows scales and applying the CAGED system toward seeing and memorizing those scales.

 

 

Zig Zag Thanks for the graphic. I might take it and define the areas and repost. Much appreciated !!! I think some will be able to see it but maybe starting with an example would be good and then we could shift to a different key and see how many get it right or even use just a partial and see if everyone can figure out where to go with it...

 

Andy

[damian]

" Teach a man a scale, he'll know a scale, teach a man a chord, he'll wanna rock, teach a man music theory, he'll wanna teach."

 

Anyways, " Another Thing Coming ".......Whether it's F# or G* is redundant........What's interesting is whether it's major or minor,

 

or neither........And why.....................................

 

And, does the actual vocal line musically lend any clues ????? ... .......

[zigzag]

... I might take it and define the areas and repost. Much appreciated !!!

 

Starting with a pentatonic scale might be easier to pick up the pattern.

[stein]

Great job showing the graphic there, Ziggy.

 

Personally, I would make my own diagrams. If you draw your own neck, then write in the notes (without sharps or flats) you end up with the c major scale. I would write in the notes as well. I highly recommend making your own chart, because writing it in yourself rather than just viewing it helps your brain to process and understand what you are writing.

 

You can see not just the chords of the CAGED system in the diagram, you can also see every chord available within the scale. You can also see the pentatonic scale with it as well. (keep in mind the minor pentatonic will be the "A" minor pentatonic).

 

If you write in the names of the notes instead of just dots, you can still see the patterns you would play with your fingers, AND you can see the chords and the notes of the chords, and how they are put together.

[Duende]

He came over to me and said that he had never had such a jump in the increase of students with real guitar knowledge and that my students were always the best in the class. That made me feel pretty good. ( And he taught them more of the site reading stuff ) I also had a few students get music scholarships based on their abilities which I was also proud of.

 

So you should be Andy, that is an incredible compliment and a credit to your teaching!

 

 

I didn't make them leave but I tried to push them out of the nest the best I could and help them realize there was a bunch more to learn and develop and they should seek out new things and approaches.

 

That is very humble of you and also quite unusual. Not bad unusual, but unique and actually quite refreshing unusual.

 

 

 

So I guess to summarize I used the "Give a man a fish and you have feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you have feed him for a lifetime) approach....

Hope this long winded replay answers your question.

Andy

Maybe we are not that different as I thought Andy. I say something very similar, that I teach people to teach themselves and to think! Thanks for sharing all this, it is so nice to hear how someone else does things. I hope my pm didn't freak you out too much

 

Matt

[stein]

" Teach a man a scale, he'll know a scale, teach a man a chord, he'll wanna rock, teach a man music theory, he'll wanna teach."

 

Anyways, " Another Thing Coming ".......Whether it's F# or G* is redundant........What's interesting is whether it's major or minor,

 

or neither........And why.....................................

 

And, does the actual vocal line musically lend any clues ????? ... .......

If he sang the vocal line in the major scale, that would sound gay.