Theory - All levels, We can All Learn Something.

[Riverside]

If we agree to make them all power chords with only the root and fifth, them we can negotiate? I'll let you have any scale you want, and we can barter over the 3rd.

 

 

With only 5ths, you can't characterize them as Major or minor.

 

That's kinda the point.

[Andy R]

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[Andy R]

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[stein]

If we agree to make them all power chords with only the root and fifth, them we can negotiate? I'll let you have any scale you want, and we can barter over the 3rd.

 

NO? aw, I didn't think you would. Gosh, you're a hard ***!!!

Apparently my comedy is as bad as my theory. I was making a funny.

 

The theory behind the comedy: the thread started as a theory teaching thread, and it quickly got derailed into advanced stuff, and then discussion on what makes a scale or key.

 

Part of it was the minor pentatonic imposed over a major scale progression. Whether we are "allowed" to use a 3rd or have to use all fifths to still be called a key.

 

Then, ANDY, wisely got back on track and pulled the "you have to know the rules before you break them" card, and properly laid down the rules of traditional theory for us. So I called him a "hard ***".

[Andy R]

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[Andy R]

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[stein]

So Stein did you still have questions about pentatonic and blues scales major, minor, etc...?

I ALWAYS have questions about the blues scales. It has been, at times, my life-long ambition to come up with a solution and a new form of music theory that simplifies it and recognizes it as a "proper" form instead of fitting it into the classical western theory which I think makes it more complicated than it is. I admit it may be a delusion of grandeur.

 

BUT..also, I have not played or practiced much, and I have a lot to bone up on. There is also a lot of basic theory and tips and tricks to apply it that I am picking up on here as a result of your thread.

 

Please, continue on. I am actually reading it, and I am attempting to absorb as much as I can, which is considerable. While it may SEEM like the same stuff, taking the same thing and coming at it again and from different ways takes a lot of thought.

[damian]

Actually I think that's exactly why he posted that. He understands that 5ths are ambiguous.

 

VodkaButtercupStevo would argue that FIFTHS aren't ambiguous, but are required..... :unsure: .....

[Andy R]

So here is a quick trick to naming what notes are contained in the chords your playing in a certain key. I just noticed this today and it was a big "Duh" moment for me. I showed the long way by looking at each chords major scale starting with the root note of the chord and finding the 1 3 5 . Here is the simple way. It is one of those so obvious you miss it things.

 

Pick a key..... Ok .. E major it is Major scale formula = WWHWWWH = E F# G# A B C# D E

 

Just Start with a note and skip a note in between So:

 

E F# G# A B C# D# E

E G# B - E Maj

 

E F# G# A B C# D# E

F# A C# - F# min

E F# G# A B C# D# E

G# B D# - G# min

 

E F# G# A B C# D# E

A C# E - A Maj

 

E F# G# A B C# D# E F# G# A B C# D E

B D# F# = B Maj

 

E F# G# A B C# D# E F# G# A B C# D# E

C# E G# = C# min

 

E F# G# A B C# D# E F# G# A B C# D# E

D# F# A# = D# Dim

I just write down the notes of the scale and circle through it instead of writing out long way but I couldn't think of another way to explain it. You can just keep stacking to add 7ths etc...

[rct]

RCT,

No disrespect meant in the previous post and I understand what you are saying and agree with what you are saying. I would only disagree with you to some extent based on how and why I try to explain things in a certain way but there is a method to my madness. I am also chewing on if I should take another approach or just stick the course I have in mind which will end up heading more or less to the point you are making. So I am not dismissing what you are saying or saying it is wrong. So Please feel free to jump back in.

 

So you know when i teach or explain things I usually try to stick to a fundamental foundation with some strict rules in place. So as every musician knows and complains, and points out when you are trying to explain theory that rules are meant to be broken. This usually derails things pretty quick because you can go a thousand different directions on how you can bend and tweak theory. I think this is what makes it difficult to grasp for most people.

 

So I start with as simple of a premise as I can with some strict rules of application and then once that is grasped I start working in the variables and rule breaking and or the "why doesn't this follow this rule".

 

So right now I am basically trying to explain is What makes a key a key? How to determine the key? As well as how to play in key and ensure you stay in key. So if someone can't grasp this basic concept I don't want to muddy the water yet explaining every exception to the rule. Maybe I'm speaking to strictly and will consider this.

 

No disrespect was taken, and certainly no disrespect was intended towards you and these lessons.

 

Music theory attempts to explain the perfect mathematics that are music. Unfortunately, our ears don't know anything about perfect mathematics, just what does and doesn't sound good. Sure, there are "rules", but theory should be used to explain after the fact, not create rigid scripture to be followed. At least, in my long ago HIGH school days, that's how he tried to do it.

 

Anyway right now all I'm trying to convey is that a key contains certain notes which determine the key. If you only play the notes that are in the key you will assuredly be playing in the same key as the key your playing over. Can we agree to that?

The next point I would venture into is ("Ok I am only playing notes in the Key but why does it sound bad sometimes and good sometimes") Once that is grasped then onto more and more details of what and how to add notes that are not in the basic key Center...

 

So I find it difficult to tell somone that the key of C contains no flats or sharps and then turn right around and tell them that they can play all of these other notes and still be harmonically for lack of a better word ( " be in key") that do have flats and sharps....

 

It seems to me that the level you are teaching at has no idea what a key actually feels like, or how to blow over it. A very large part of music, some say even more than theory, is experience. Theory to a person that has played the guitar for twenty years without once having ever played in a band is way different than theory to a regularly ensembled musician. So your difficulty is definitely understandable.

 

See what I mean? A lot of people dont realize why certain chords work in a key and some don't.

 

So I digress that you can play notes outside of the Key Signature and not " Change the Key" so to speak but They should also understand that they are technicaly stepping outside of the root key and borrowing from another key.

 

I don't think, at the level you are trying to reach, that is required. I think that when a student asks "how come I can play an F# in passing and it still sounds scwheet?" you can simply answer that "in passing" is correct and that the first chair, for lack of better wording for a lead player, does not change the key. It is at that point that it is important to teach that DOing it is the only sure way to know, that most of this theory crap is just that on paper, and that all of this stuff is pretty meaningless without the band around you, much like Art Appreciation can't be done correctly in a dark room with no, well, Art. When I had theory, the first half of the day was Theory, Choir, Jazz Band. All that stuff from the first class was USED in the other two, that experience was worth more than the theory itself!

 

So I guess a question to you is ( honest question) What key would you say this progression is in? Cmaj, Gmaj, Cmaj, Amin, Cmaj, Cmaj, Dmin, Cmaj, Dmin, Gmaj, Amin, Dmin Emin, Cmaj

 

For the learners and beginners out there, these chords are simply what the writer decided to use as harmonic context for whatever the melody is. That melody presumably moves through these chords in a human ear pleasing fashion without getting too far too dissonant. Another writer might take the same melody and come up with completely different chords. So for the sake of your lessons, I'll just say it could be a couple, but since there is no context for the chords I'll take the last one as the tonal center and resolution, so it's in C.

 

And yes, I know, it is all a confusing mess, especially when trying to teach via writing. It is best done with a bunch of instruments and peoples around to mostly demonstrate what NOT to do. Theory is about WHY the stuff we do works, and then, somewhat about why it doesn't. Remember also that a lot of stuff actually DID work, but was forbidden by the Church, so it just wasn't done. Theory is kewl in that a part of it is actual history, patrons, kings, popes, stuff like that, and they had parts in it all. Or, incrdibly dull, so lets go have a 11 beers and play some Grand Funk Railroad. I'm up for either.

 

Motor on, Heads.

 

rct

[zigzag]

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[Andy R]

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[rct]

...The absolute end goal will be to show how to do all of these things, change keys, play modal, etc.. without even really thinking about it.

 

Oh man, that there the hard part. Good luck with it, theory is a great thing to have.

 

rct

[zigzag]

Not what I was originally looking for, but still cool:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mbrAlE9pC4

 

I don't know about yoose guys, but that lesson really motivates me to learn modes.

[WahKeen]

I've actually enjoyed reading most of what's been posted. There are things that I've known and had not necessarily "left brained". I like to tap into my left brain more, but some things feel like overload to my head. That in itself demonstrates a need to explore more of that for me. I just need to pace myself and not let it bore me to where I just want to grab my guitar and enjoy. I wholeheartedly agree that learning more theory than one already knows can only help. Great stuff guys!

[Andy R]

I've actually enjoyed reading most of what's been posted. There are things that I've known and had not necessarily "left brained". I like to tap into my left brain more, but some things feel like overload to my head. That in itself demonstrates a need to explore more of that for me. I just need to pace myself and not let it bore me to where I just want to grab my guitar and enjoy. I wholeheartedly agree that learning more theory than one already knows can only help. Great stuff guys!

 

WahKeen Thanks for the feedback. The Post definitely needs to be cleaned up a bit. I am going to try to remove as much of the redundancy and "justification bickering" as I can and try to simplify it a bit more.

[WahKeen]

Nah Andy, It's all good the way it is unless you want to take the "realness" of it out, it's up to you. As "most of it", I meant I didn't care for the nonconstructive comments and attitudes. Don't get me wrong, I get people's frustrations and disagrements on theory. That's not what I'm talking about. Keep on.

[overtherainbo]

o

[Duende]

I am genuinely sad Andy has removed his comments , I thought people were enjoying the debating and understanding of this thread?!! On the internet though I do sometimes mistake people debating to them getting their knickers in a twist~!! Some knickers got twisted? LOL

 

 

Andy,

 

I said earlier I teach in a very different way to you. I think perhaps one major difference is that I don't teach theory in relation to guitar, but in a global mentality, I think similarly to you I get people to learn theory 'on the job'. An example is when I teach composition, I don't produce long complex lists of 'cans and can't' and long theoretical explanations before we even write/record one note. We start with a pen and paper/recorder and get down the idea (hoping there is something there!!) and then as the piece takes shape in the first few bars, theory creeps in surreptitiously! It sneaks in without them usually even aware we are doing the dreaded (and often boring) 'theory'

 

The pupil inevitably encounters creative road blocks where they can hear and ultimately experience that something doesn't feel right, it is then that you can ask questions that make them use theory as a tool that has a practical purpose!

 

I do think though if in l lot of musical understanding; the old adage of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' applies. If someone has an instinct for just 'knowing' why something works that way, i.e having a very good ear, then going around the houses knowing every detail of the theory of why it works, is not necessary. Well not as necessary to the same degree as to someone whose ear doesn't recognise instinctively why things work that way!

 

The Miles Davis school of thought is ultimately the backbone behind my guitar teaching "Master your instrument, Master the music, and then forget all that bullshit and just play"

 

Matt

[Duende]

Music theory attempts to explain the perfect mathematics that are music. Unfortunately, our ears don't know anything about perfect mathematics, just what does and doesn't sound good. Sure, there are "rules", but theory should be used to explain after the fact, not create rigid scripture to be followed. At least, in my long ago HIGH school days, that's how he tried to do it.

 

... A very large part of music, some say even more than theory, is experience.

 

 

wise words

 

Matt

[zigzag]

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[Andy R]

Matt, and fellow forum readers.

 

So you know I didn't delete my comments out of spite or anything I would just like to get back on track. The posts I left up I want to refine a bit as well as add some audio examples. The thing I am missing is having the guitar in my hands and playing examples as I explain what i am posting. It does get very tedious/redundant and tiring to read. Much like a picture, the sound of playing two notes together is worth a 100 words of explaining what two notes sound like together.

 

I also, kindly and respectfully ask people who have "contributed" but not in a way that is, instructional, tips for learning, different ways of looking at an explanation, questions about something they don't understand, etc.. to please delete their posts as well.

 

I would like to keep this particular thread on the topic of theory to be about learning and applying theory, tips, examples, questions, and answers etc and for people who WANT TO learn theory.

 

The topic of whether or not theory adds value or makes you a better player or that you don't need to learn it, or how good you are and never learned theory, You should just play and it doesn't matter, etc... can be a whole thread on its own.

 

I would really like to try to make this a good post that adds value and people actually get something out of. Please consider this. I know this is a "Public" forum and I am not trying to be a dictator here but if we can self moderate this it can be a great post that might really help people improve their musical skills.

 

 

Written with much respect for all of you, and nothing but good intent.

 

Andy

[ShredAstaire]

It does get very tedious/redundant and tiring to read and much like a picture playing two notes together is worth a 100 words of explaining what two notes sound like together.

 

This is part of what was frustrating me i think....i can't learn music stuff by reading so many words (letters lol) and not knowing how to apply it to the guitar in my lap...

 

Now, you have no obligation to teach me so i don't ask that you change your method but i think you nailed it. That was the source of my frustration...so many words for music...

 

And yes, i'm happy to delete my posts in this thread that didn't have anything to do with anything. ;) Do i get to keep my post count? lol!!

[ShredAstaire]

I have a request...if its not too much trouble. I've been interested in the "how to figure out the key" posts in this thread and I think i am getting something from them. I need to know if thats true lol!

 

Can you post (if it will benefit others) a few songs (YouTube) and have me figure out the key and I can either PM my answers to you or maybe a separate thread would be warranted...a "What Key Is This In" thread where it just continues.

 

Now the only thing that I ask is to start with simple stuff...you know, stuff that you would ALL agree with is in a certain key...nothing too tricky. :)

 

If not, thats cool...thought I would ask though!

[Duende]

Shred,

 

edit, just read your post.Okay, I am going to give you something that hopefully you don't know. What key do you think Bellowhead's Jordan is in and what chords can you hear in it?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t6S7ujK0w

 

I would like to keep this particular thread on the topic of theory to be about learning and applying theory, tips, examples, questions, and answers etc and for people who WANT TO learn theory.

The topic of whether or not theory adds value or makes you a better player or that you don't need to learn it, or how good you are and never learned theory, You should just play and it doesn't matter, etc... can be a whole thread on its...

Andy

 

edit - I see your point,

 

Back on subject...

 

I am on my iPhobe now, but will post some links when I get home. I know we have different systems in our respective countries, but we have eight grades in theory and practical exams in the U.K. Grade 1 theory deals with treble and bass clef reading, simple music terms, basic composition techniques etc while the intermediate grades deal with harmony and transposition, Grade 8 is the most advanced grade and the standard people are on entering music college/university.

 

here are some of the things covered by grade 1

 

http://www.mymusicth...ccidentals.html

 

 

Cheers Matt

 

Matt