damian Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 This whole thing can be solved............Start growing trees with serial numbers...... :unsure: ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 This could be something as innocuous as the incorrect identification of a couple of bundles of wood by a worker in India- a simple mistake. Or it could be something as damning as a system of exporting huge amounts illegal wood over a long period of time that Gibson was aware of or even helped to instigate. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 What's going on here is pretty simple. Gibson thought they were complying with all appropriate regulations but now this other regulation popped up and they were not prepared to deal with it. Just because you comply with one regulation doesn't mean you don't have to comply with other regulations. They're supposed to have a certain amount of finishing content done in India. The feds are contending that there was not enough finishing done in India. Gibson needs to be able to address this. In business, you're supposed to be ahead of these issues. You need to know the regulations better than the regulators and be prepared to deal with them before they come up. This regulation came out of the blue, and it's nobody's fault but Gibson for not being prepared. They need better lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Oh stein, you right wing conspiracy nut job! lol...something in the tea maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 My question is, why is a finished fingerboard _blank_ not considered a finished product. That's different from a fingerboard. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 What's going on here is pretty simple. Gibson thought they were complying with all appropriate regulations but now this other regulation popped up and they were not prepared to deal with it. Just because you comply with one regulation doesn't mean you don't have to comply with other regulations. They're supposed to have a certain amount of finishing content done in India. The feds are contending that there was not enough finishing done in India. Gibson needs to be able to address this. In business, you're supposed to be ahead of these issues. You need to know the regulations better than the regulators and be prepared to deal with them before they come up. This regulation came out of the blue, and it's nobody's fault but Gibson for not being prepared. They need better lawyers. While I can agree with you somewhat, regulations when written and codified are extremely confusing and complex, not to mention voluminous in scope. Several years back I was involved in a legal battle with the IRS . Being as anal as I am , I went to the Federal Book Store in Atlanta and bought myself a copy of 26USC ( Internal Revenue Code ). In these codified books you will find that for the purposes of certain chapters , words take on whole new meanings and intent and can be ambiguous in meaning and application. My point is, that it's virtually impossible to know everything in the massive volumes of code, implementing regulations and statutes. Sure, you can hire lawyers, but guess what they don't know everything that's in the mountains of codes and regulations, that's why most good lawyers have a paralegal on staff for research. This is all the result of America becoming an over regulated and litigious nation. Good Luck Henry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 My question is, why is a finished fingerboard _blank_ not considered a finished product. That's different from a fingerboard. m Probably due to the person interpreting the statute and his general lack of knowledge as to what he's looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.” m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master that's all." m Welcome to the world of codes and regulation. Where green may be blue depending on the disposition of the enforcer or interpreter. Interesting side note to my IRS battle is that I was threatened with prosecution under Title 31 USC, which has to do with Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms of which I am and never have been involved in the production , sale or distribution of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Marsh Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 After reading the federal document it looks to me like there is a game of "button, button, who's got the button?" going on between Gibson, LMI and the German importer/exporter. Seems like an old story - lots of nations in the past have sought to avoid interdiction in trade issues - Civil war - Union blockade of cotton going to the mills of Britain, Opium/silver/tea wars in China, circa 1840's etc, by shipping to a separate neutral source where the said proscribed materials become new and clean and therefore, legal. Interesting content referring to some information being supplied by an employee or employees of Gibson - Still, who's to say? I'm waiting for the ultimate outcome. I hope Gibson is vindicated because of their wonderful instruments and the legacy that dates to the early 1900's. Every coin has 2 faces - let's see which face lands up on this coin toss....Let's keep our minds open eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 After reading the federal document it looks to me like there is a game of "button, button, who's got the button?" going on between Gibson, LMI and the German importer/exporter. Seems like an old story - lots of nations in the past have sought to avoid interdiction in trade issues - Civil war - Union blockade of cotton going to the mills of Britain, Opium/silver/tea wars in China, circa 1840's etc, by shipping to a separate neutral source where the said proscribed materials become new and clean and therefore, legal. Interesting content referring to some information being supplied by an employee or employees of Gibson - Still, who's to say? I'm waiting for the ultimate outcome. I hope Gibson is vindicated because of their wonderful instruments and the legacy that dates to the early 1900's. Every coin has 2 faces - let's see which face lands up on this coin toss....Let's keep our minds open eh? Well ,I tend to be rather jaded when the application of Federal Code and Regulation is concerned,.Due to the fact that I once had the application of the Federal jackboot across my neck. It was not a pleasant experience, that cost me time and resources over what was in itself a witch hunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson Artist Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 All im going to say is 2012 cannot come fast enough. You can read into that however you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 ... Let's see... a non-union shop put outa business in a low personal tax state with traditionally no income tax and a right to work law... and currently it's represented by a majority of Republicans in the House and both senators? Hmmmm. ... m Don't forget Concealed Carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinh Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Oh and publicize got a z in it. Just saying. The substantial number of British readers of the board, myself included, would disagree. http://www.merriam-w...onary/publicise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 My question is, why is a finished fingerboard _blank_ not considered a finished product. That's different from a fingerboard. m Could be that someone in India wants the fingerboards to be cut for frets, fretted, markers inlaid and oiled before shipment. Why? Greater added value. Could be someone is negotiating for a bigger slice of the Les Paul pie. From there the necks could be negotiated using the same logic, then the bodies, then final assembly. Think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.” m "Depends upon what the definition of 'IS' is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Musician's Friend Catalog, May 2011.......................... " Taylor 35th Anniversary BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD Acoustic Guitars " FOR SALE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Could be that someone in India wants the fingerboards to be cut for frets, fretted, markers inlaid and oiled before shipment. Why? Greater added value. Could be someone is negotiating for a bigger slice of the Les Paul pie. From there the necks could be negotiated using the same logic, then the bodies, then final assembly. Think about it. Doubtful. If that was the case, they would already have the blanks done that way and nothing to stop them if that was what they wanted. And for sure, they would NOT do anything to bring down a company they wanted to sell to. We can be sure this isn't coming from India. If they didn't want to allow the sales, they could easily make it illegal and stop the stuff from even leaving save for the black market. And, if was activist or citizens within India, all they would need to do is complain to the INTERNATIONAL TREE HUGGER people and they would remove the certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieman15061 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 The substantial number of British readers of the board, myself included, would disagree. http://www.merriam-w...onary/publicise Just playing with you Mart. Glad you Brits are concerned about our guitars and points of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerwagonjohn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 It appears to me the wood was imported under a false description. Described as legal veneer but it was actually sawn wood by there definition. So who falsified the paperwork and who knew about the act. I hope they can get the facts straightened out. I am glad I bought my L-4CES when I did, and that it was made in early 2009. Now my only worry is that all new Gibsons have a ID chip set into the neck pocket plus as a new guitar it is registered with Gibson. Will they have to pry my guitar from my cold dead fingers? I sure hope not. I have heard ebony was in short supply but not to this extent. I guess it is everyones fault and everyones problem. Thanks John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinh Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Just playing with you Mart. Glad you Brits are concerned about our guitars and points of view. Now I'm going to get off my arse, get out of my pyjamas, get a book of cheques from the boot of my motor, and go to the shopping centre to buy some fags. PS> we can't worry about our own guitar industry 'cos we 'aint got one no more! I don't think there's a British electric guitar manufacturer (as opposed to a craft builder/luthier like John Birch or some of the folks making acoustics) left for us to worry about! The last production British electric guitar I can remember was the Hayman/Shergold line that died out in the 1980's . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Now I'm going to get off my arse, get out of my pyjamas, get a book of cheques from the boot of my motor, and go to the shopping centre to buy some fags. PS> we can't worry about our own guitar industry 'cos we 'aint got one no more! I don't think there's a British electric guitar manufacturer (as opposed to a craft builder/luthier like John Birch or some of the folks making acoustics) left for us to worry about! The last production British electric guitar I can remember was the Hayman/Shergold line that died out in the 1980's . . . . Can I still buy a Lorrie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson Artist Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Can I still buy a Lorrie? Imagine the new criminals of the future wont be cyber nerds attacking microsoft but rather camp counselors at summer camps trying to sing Kumbaya my lord with their illegal pieces of wood. The horror..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Have you seen this? Threats, intimidation, and coercion? Exploiting Africa, India? The US government went after the craftsmen building the guitars. It's a fishing expedition. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tmLcGeIypk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Have you seen this? Threats, intimidation, and coercion? Exploiting Africa, India? The US government went after the craftsmen building the guitars. It's a fishing expedition. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tmLcGeIypk Well you know some certain elected official is reportedly from Kenya , so maybe he's just protecting the motherlands resources from those mean old capitalists. Sorry Duane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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