charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 This is not limited to Fender or Mashall amps, or any other's...at all. That was only an example. What I'm curious about, again, because of a recent situation I found myself in, do you all use different amps, now, for different guitars...especially when considering Fender, or Fender-like, single coils, as opposed to Humbuckers, or P-90's. In the early days, everyone seemed to use the same Fender amps, then Vox, then Marshall...and so on, regardless of which brand, or type guitar they used. For a uniform "look" or stage appearance, maybe? And yet, even live, they didn't sound bad, or have a problem with tone. You don't see that, much, anymore. Stages these days, have many kinds, and brands, of amps. I (personally) only hear two distinctive differences in (overall) voicing, in amps, today. "British" (Vox, Orange, Marshall) tone, and "American" (Fender, Mesa, mostly) tones. Some, have all of that, and more (boutique amps, as well) as digital simulators. I ask this, because last night, I was in a situation, where I was using the exact same amp, at the exact same settings, as the other guitar player, but was using a P-90 equipped Gibson, to his Fender Telecaster. Our overall guitar volume was equal, too. But...Mine disappeared, almost entirely, in the overall mix, of sounds, in this band. Now I know, that Tele's and Strats are a lot more 'cutting' than a P-90's more "fat" round sound. But, last night, it seemed unusally so. ???? We even had a discussion, about that, after the gig. The two other guitar players I was playing with, both said they've had to alter either their rig, amp settings, or even amp types/brands, to maximize "their tone," with different guitars! I just don't remember this ever being an Issue, in "the good old days," when we all used, primarily, the same amps, back then. So..??? Any thoughts? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 All single coil guitars get played with the VOXAC50 All humbucker guitars are blasted through the Mojave Dirty Boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 It is the John-ruh of music I am playing that dictates my choice of amp, usually. I only use a Maxon delay pedal, so I find all my guitars work well with any of my 3 amps (all of which are Traynors, BTW). [... and they are all BLACK, charlie brown!] Regards, J/W [bTW: It sounds to me like you were having a phase cancellation problem last night. You may have to play with your back line and reorientate your amps (especially if you and the Tele guy are both playing infinite baffle (open-backed) amps). That is usually the cause of Gibsons disappearing in the mix.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 All single coil guitars get played with the VOXAC50 All humbucker guitars are blasted through the Mojave Dirty Boy And...??? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 And...??? CB The Hofner bass get it's lovin from the AC50 too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 LOL...no, I meant "why" do you use those different amps, specifically? What is it, about them, that makes one, better than the other, for a specific guitar. Pardon me, if I seem "obtuse," but I'm really curious, as I'm having "tone/volume" problems, that I've never had, before...in those "Jam" or Gig situations. It's quite frustrating, I can tell you. Especially, since there seems to be no real "reason" for the sudden problem(s). CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolling56 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 No.........that's why you have knobs on the guitar and amp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 LOL...no, I meant "why" do you use those different amps, specifically? What is it, about them, that makes one, better than the other, for a specific guitar. Pardon me, if I seem "obtuse," but I'm really curious, as I'm having "tone/volume" problems, that I've never had, before...in those "Jam" or Gig situations. It's quite frustrating, I can tell you. Especially, since there seems to be no real "reason" for the sudden problem(s). CB Oops... The single coil pups retain there chiming characteristics better through the AC50. My Dirty Boy enhances that throaty tone with the humbuckers... The brown tone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 LOL...no, I meant "why" do you use those different amps, specifically? What is it, about them, that makes one, better than the other, for a specific guitar. Pardon me, if I seem "obtuse," but I'm really curious, as I'm having "tone/volume" problems, that I've never had, before...in those "Jam" or Gig situations. It's quite frustrating, I can tell you. Especially, since there seems to be no real "reason" for the sudden problem(s). CB I edited my post above... you may not have seen it. Ever heard of "phase cancellation". I'll bet that's what you ran into last night. I use amps that are warm and clean when I back my volume controls off, but which will also compress and sag a little when I push them hard in a jazz or blues setting. I even like just a little sag for playing country... To me, it boils down to the amp running dead quiet, even if it's a tube amp, and being moderately "touch-sensitive", as the marketers like to say. As for tone, the engineers seem to be able to accomplish anything with modern EQ. J/W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 I edited my post above... you may not have seen it. Ever heard of "phase cancellation". I'll bet that's what you ran into last night. I use amps that are warm and clean when I back my volume controls off, but which will also compress and sag a little when I push them hard in a jazz or blues setting. I even like just a little sag for playing country... To me, it boils down to the amp running dead quiet, even if it's a tube amp, and being moderately "touch-sensitive", as the marketers like to say. As for tone, the engineers seem to be able to accomplish anything with modern EQ. J/W Thanks, JellyWheat...I think you've touched on it, with the "Phase Cancellation" thing. That makes sense, given the situation, and (unfortunate) lack of real "dynamics" by the players, last night, too. I USE tone and volume controls, on my guitar(s) especially. Last night, it seemed like no one else did! LOL So the overall volume, may have contributed, to what I was experiencing, when in a more dynamic state, which we usually play in, it's never been a real problem. It was just perplexing...but, now that you mentioned "Phase Cancellation," it makes (more) sense. Thanks... CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Thanks, JellyWheat...I think you've touched on it, with the "Phase Cancellation" thing. That make sense, given the situation, and (unfortunate) lack of real "dynamics" by the players, last night, too. I USE tone and volume controls, on my guitar(s) especially. Last night, it seemed like no one else did! LOL So the overall volume, may have contributed, to what I was experiencing, when in a more dynamic state, which we usually play in, it's never been a real problem. It was just perplexing...but, now that you mentioned "Phase Cancellation," it makes (more) sense. Thanks... CB Think nothing of it. I will waive my usual fee on this occasion, given that I have not yet included my PayPal coordinates in my profile information. [Think nothing of it... but sing the praises of the JellyWheat to all your friends, nonetheless!] J/W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Sorry to hear about your problem CB. I use the same amp for both types of guitars/pups but I do adjust the tone controls on the amp and guitar if needed. I really am just to lazy or tired to carry more than one amp to a gig or jam. Lol. Actually I need to qualify what I said. I have two amps to use but I only use one at a time. Both are amps I built, one is a kit and one from scratch (a spin off of a princeton tweed). 1. the modded princeton tweed: I only adjust the one tone knob on the amp and guitar tone if needed (perhaps vol too). I add highs into the humbuckers. 2. Ceriatone OTS (dumble ODS copy) - this amp sounds good no matter what guitar I use but it excels with humbuckers I think. When I switch guitars I seldom change any settings except volume (singles you know has less output). In my band my sound is usually brighter than the other guitarist. I think this is because at my age I have a hearing shift going on and have a tendency to turn the highs up. Lucky for me the highs cut thru the mix better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Could the reason your tone and volume were so far off been the length of your guitar chord? I know people who have switched from say 30' to a more managible 15' and increased their tone and volume. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 No... I tend to use different guitars for different amps! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Thanks, JellyWheat...I think you've touched on it, with the "Phase Cancellation" thing. That makes sense, given the situation, and (unfortunate) lack of real "dynamics" by the players, last night, too. I USE tone and volume controls, on my guitar(s) especially. Last night, it seemed like no one else did! LOL So the overall volume, may have contributed, to what I was experiencing, when in a more dynamic state, which we usually play in, it's never been a real problem. It was just perplexing...but, now that you mentioned "Phase Cancellation," it makes (more) sense. Thanks... CB Think nothing of it. I will waive my usual fee on this occasion, given that I have not yet included my PayPal coordinates in my profile information. [Think nothing of it... but sing the praises of the JellyWheat to all your friends, nonetheless!] J/W If it was phase cancellation then wouldn't both guitars have the same problem? Phase cancellation happens when two waves oppose each other - one wave is at the peak and the other is at the trough. I don't believe it's phase cancellation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Thanks, all...for your replies, and ideas. Keep them coming. As to the cord length, they're short...I play in bars, mostly. Not on larger stages, except in rare instances. So...??? It's really interesting, in a perplexing, frustrating, sort of way. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 OK on a Serious note... When you say "Mix" do you mean stage mix to your ears or Front of house mix through the PA or both? I agree as well that phase cancellation could be the culprit. Obviously the 2 guitars are going to sound quite different regardless if they are set the same for tone, gain and volume. Especially if the Tele was a maple neck/fretboard and if you were using a mahogany body/neck and rosewood guitar ( Just making a comparison as I'm not sure what you were actually using) but in this scenario the mid, mid/highs of the tele would generally dominate especially if the tele were being played with a very clean setting. So if you are getting stomped on by the tele in the upper frequencies and the bass guitar is over lapping into the low to low mids of your guitar tone this will also cause you to be lost in the mix as well... add more distortion to your tone and you will really fade out of the mix .... I have been using different pickups in the guitars I use lately with the same amp. I try different ones until I get the tone I like without having to do any major amp tweaking. Regards, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Unless I'm going for a Jazzy sound, I use older fender Amps. Not necessarily Vintage, but I haven't been impressed since they started adding the DSL stuff <_< For Jazzy stuff I like to use my Epiphone 210sc. Kind of a smaller cheap JC120, or really more like a JC90. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsyseven Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 My AC30 is enough...perfect for my Tele,Casino and Jazzmaster...i don´t need more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 This thread is all kinda different directions, eh? In case anyone cares, Fender amps with Jensens stock are wired backwards (out of phase). But, I have never had a problem with it unless recording, or miking for a PA. It only seems to be a problem when 2 out of phase signals are on the same wire, so to speak. But amps firing into a room, doesn't seem to matter. More frequencies get eaten up by the bass and room reflections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I run two Fender Stage amps and had to reverse one of the speakers polarity (I don't know it that's correct terminology, but I reversed the speakers connection). My 112se has the Blue Back, the stage 100 has an English Celestion, I switched the Celestion to match the Jensen and they sound Great together. To address CB's problem in the op, it just might be that your mids needed to come up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 If it was phase cancellation then wouldn't both guitars have the same problem? Phase cancellation happens when two waves oppose each other - one wave is at the peak and the other is at the trough. I don't believe it's phase cancellation. Actually, I think that did happen, at times. There were times, last night, when my guitar sounded great...but, more often than not, it was just "lost" in the over drone, in the room, from all the amps, etc. We've played that room, a lot...and it's never been "ideal" by any stretch...but, last night just seemed particularly "bad," sound wise. At least, for me! So, I just wanted to get some input, and ideas, as to what "might" have gone on/wrong. As usual, you guys have helped, with that...especially given the difficulty in even guessing, since you weren't there. LOL But, it is, as always, appreciated! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 I run two Fender Stage amps and had to reverse one of the speakers polarity (I don't know it that's correct terminology, but I reversed the speakers connection). My 112se has the Blue Back, the stage 100 has an English Celestion, I switched the Celestion to match the Jensen and they sound Great together. To address CB's problem in the op, it just might be that your mids needed to come up a bit. Yeah, I thought of that, even as we were playing, and took the bass down a LOT, pushed the mids to nearly max, and the treble at about 1/2 to 3/4 max, depending on if I was using the Les Paul (double cut) faded "Special," or my Ric 12-string. The Ric sounded fine, really...as the songs I use it on, tend to be less volume dependant, anyway. Thanks, as always, FM, for the input/ideas. Edit/Addition: We were all using Tube amps, and the 2 (myself, and my Telecaster playing buddy) were using identical Fender Blues Juniors. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Interesting posts and thoughts...........I understand the problem, but I'll let you all talk it out...... [thumbup] ....However, in jest; I used to have that same problem frequency...My doctor told me it was just a passing phase....He suggested that I run direct to PA, until I reminded him that I live in Oregon......:blink: ;) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzboy Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 At the moment right now my Les Paul Standard sound good with My Laney LH 50 since I re tube the Laney with E34L it has sounded much better. That doesn't mean though that I wouldn't be willing to try out another amplifier to see if that amp will produce the tone that I have been looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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