Three's a crowd....on a bridge

[Hogeye]

I noticed Hogeye stated in a condescending manner to a fellow member that laminates do not move because of humidity issues. Here we go....

 

Laminates do move with humidity changes most times in a uniform way, however there are instances where an owner may not be so lucky. I have seen cases where the adhesive will let go between the laminates due to the stress of two conflicting pieces, the reasons can range from man made errors to wood simply having a mind of it's own. Anyway more often than not in instances with pieces as narrow as what is being used by Gibson on their fret boards now the exposed piece will swell from the increased moisture of the offending humidity change and only pure luck dictates whether or not that said piece returns to it's original form. This would cause a portion of the fretboard to appear to swell up, how much totally depends on the severity of the damage, the only guaranty is without much needed attention the problem will not go away on it's own. Most times to be properly repaired the offending piece will have to be removed which would most likely mean completely replacing the fretboard... an expensive undertaking if someone doesn't have the knowledge or skill to perform such a task. Laminates work well for their intended purposes and they do move... hopefully this clears up any misinformation posted by the uninformed.

 

As for laminate necks well they serve their purpose as well but that's not to say they are without their problems. I've seen neck laminates separate from each other and from the wings of a neck through body... would I let that stop me from buying a guitar made in such a fashion, no. But I would prefer not to misguide members into believing such designs are problem free regardless of the name on the headstock. Now Hogeye see how I didn't have to make fun of you to get my point across, hopefully you can gain some humility from this experience.

 

 

Humility? Me?? Not likley...

Now about the humidity thing. If you keep your guitar in the recommended humidity range you will have no problem with the glue joints on any part of your guitar. If you raise the humidity above the recomended level your top will crack before the glue joint gives away on your bridge or fretboard. I suppose that if you subjected the laminated joints to the level that they failed you would have destroyed not only the joint but the rest of the guitar as well. So... You are right and I stand corrected. The glue joints can fail. Its just that the entire guitar will fail before they do.

 

Please keep in mind that Gibson offers a lifetime warranty on their guitars. Do you honestly believe that they would build a part to fail just so they could go to the expense of fixing it?

[Del Nilppeznaf]

Your posting is encouraging that flawed reasoning and that is objectionable.

 

I agree

 

New potential owners of Gibsaon guitars comming to this forum and reading some of the comments made about new Gibsons....... without ever even playing one...... will be led to believe they are inferior instruments. This is my opinion is uninformed and ultimately wrong.

[j45nick]

Please keep in mind that Gibson offers a lifetime warranty on their guitars. Do you honestly believe that they would build a part to fail just so they could go to the expense of fixing it?

 

 

Hogeye, that Gibson "lifetime warranty" is not transferrable, so it is less meaningful than it might be. I don't know how long the average person buying a new Gibson owns it, but it probably isn't a "lifetime" purchase for most people.

 

I agree with you completely when you say that laminated parts such as bridges and boards are extremely unlikely to fail at the glue joint unless terribly abused, by which time a separated bridge lamination would be the least of your worries.

 

I assume that Gibson is using some variation of Tite-Bond aliphatic resin adhesives for these laminated parts. A part glued with these should last a lifetime without problems in most cases. Having said that, I have spent a lot of time rescuing older "orphan" guitars that HAVE been terribly abused, including failed glue joints, etc. Of course, older hide-glued parts are probably much more prone to glue-joint failures than anything glued with aliphatic resin.

 

My issue with this whole situation, as far as I understand it (thanks to JT's excellent articles and input), is that we have a stand-off between the feds and Gibson which is causing the probelm, for better or worse. As you rightly point out, people who bear no blame may ultimately lose their jobs, which is not a good thing, ever.

 

From a guitar consumer's perspective, however, I need to look at this a bit more selfishly, and decide whether the current Gibson products meet my expectations or not. For me, the issue of the laminated parts is aesthetic, rather than functional. They just don't appeal to me, any more than Martin's horrendous Strata-Bond neck does. That ain't no laminated maple neck, and I'd hate to see Gibson go down that route. I will always be willing to pay a premium for a guitar built the old-fashioned way.

 

That doesn't mean I'm not looking to buy a carbon fiber travel guitar, however. You gotta be practical here.

[onewilyfool]

I once had a Martin 00-17 that I bought used. It was far superior appearance wise to the 00-15's as it had a gloss body and bindings all around. The seller informed me that it had a "Micarta" fretboard, and Micarta bridge. When I got it, it was 9 years old. I did some research on this "micarta" stuff, and found it was a black version of the "Tusq" saddles and nuts. Those of you in the construction industry will be familiar with it as "Corian", the product used on countertops...similar stuff. SOOOOOO, the seller had disclosed the product, and I did my research, and went into the sale with open eyes, and willing to give it a shot. I would describe the appearance as "grainless" Ebony....like.......I've had this Corian countertops in my Kitchen for 15 years, and it looks good as new. Same with the fretboard and saddle. The stuff doesn't shrink, is not affected by normal heatand cold, and is impervious to humidity. In my research, I found some links where people's body chemistry caused it to "flake" but on the one I had, it was as new, and for the two years I played it, I saw no wear. So here is a product which may find a future when we really run out of ebony and Rosewood. There is one difference between my purchase and the purchases we are talking about here, the seller DID inform me of the non-traditional materials BEFORE I purchased. I kind of miss that guitar, as I sold it to fuel some GAS....here is a Youtube of me playing a Beatles song on it!!

 

[stein]

 

 

 

You have no problem throwing 120 hard working honest people under the buss. They are my friends and you are encouraging others to stop buying their guitars out of your ignorance.

 

 

I think you got it backwards. If these are your friends and you care about the well being of them and the company, you should be convincing them, not bashing the customers.

 

IF there are "advantages" to laminate fingerboards, by the time this is established, there are going to be more problems revealed. You HAVE to know that. Wether you come from a pure 'knowledge' place, or a 'perception' place, you won't convince either group that laminate is not a bad idea.

 

You miss the point about those that 'perceive' they don't want to see laminates simply out of tradition. This group may not be knowledgeable about WHY some things work and some don't, but what they want is something built the way it is SUPPOSED to be built based on tradition. This customer base has proven to be right in the long run, and it should also be obvious that attempts to get away from them or convince them otherwise has not worked.

 

If you want to bash this group because you feel you have superior knowledge of hardwoods and how to build a guitar, you may be able to prove some you are more knowledgeable to some of them in their perceptions. Unfortunately, with THIS argument, you have a group that actually know what they are talking about in a 'technical' aspect. You think it is possible to win that argument?

 

YOUR perception that this thread is actually hurting Gibson misses the point completely. What the majority are TRYING to say is that the way laminates of rosewood is being used by Gibson on the bridges and the fingerboards is a bad idea and effects the quality of the guitars, both perceived or in reality. Not wanting to see this is based on love for the brand, and this thread reflects that rather than a bash fest.

 

The reason it may come off as negative is because laminate rosewood fingerboards (and to a lesser extent bridges) is not defensible. Buyers will either want to see Gibson stick hard to tradition on certain things, or have those who make the decisions on what changes to make be more knowledgeable than using this particular method.

[Eyecon]

Since the feds have the "Gibson Wood" and I guess you could say the feds have a "hard on" for Gibson. There out of wood.. they have no more wood to build in the way they have been building them for 100+ yrs. Doesn't Gibson own Epiphone? Aren't Epi's made in China? Call me crazy.. BUT...Couldn't Epi purchase the Indian Rosewood fretboards etc. Sand them - trim them , buff them.. whatever. Then sell it to Gibson Montana to make non-laminate bridges & fretboards? Tell me why this isn't an option?

[BigKahune]

Since the feds have the "Gibson Wood" and I guess you could say the feds have a "hard on" for Gibson. There out of wood.. they have no more wood to build in the way they have been building them for 100+ yrs. Doesn't Gibson own Epiphone? Aren't Epi's made in China? Call me crazy.. BUT...Couldn't Epi purchase the Indian Rosewood fretboards etc. Sand them - trim them , buff them.. whatever. Then sell it to Gibson Montana to make non-laminate bridges & fretboards? Tell me why this isn't an option?

 

Lacey act - The wood blank thickness is too thick for export according to Indian law, as the Feds see it. If the rosewood is coming from India too thick, it doesn't matter who the middle men are, does it? The Feds are enforcing Indian law regardless of what India has to say about it.

 

Henry knows he's risking sales with these moves. No matter how many knowledgeable people/analysts/Gibson-aficionados/friends make good arguments for laminated woods, alternative materials, and the fine Gibson workers, Henry knows that consumers are going to buy what they want, if it's available, and currently traditional materials and woods are available from all manufacturers but Gibson. It doesn't take a knowledgeable genius to figure out Gibson is in trouble with this situation they've gotten themselves into. Gibson may get along on sales to folks who don't know or don't care what kind of materials are being used, but Henry knows the market shares are changing - not in Gibson's favor. Maybe the market shares will turn around, maybe they won't. I hope Henry settles all this before long-term damage is done to Gibson's reputation.

 

BTW, for those of you who don't follow any of the electric forums, there have been posts about the neck/fretboard seams splitting in Nashville and Memphis products. Gibson covered some of those under warranty about 18 months ago, saying the problem was due to using improperly dried wood. Thankfully, AFAIK, Bozeman has not had similar problems.

 

 

.

[Del Nilppeznaf]

What the majority are TRYING to say is that the way laminates of rosewood is being used by Gibson on the bridges and the fingerboards is a bad idea and effects the quality of the guitars, both perceived or in reality.

 

The reason it may come off as negative is because laminate rosewood fingerboards (and to a lesser extent bridges) is not defensible.

 

I understand some concerns from a purist point of view.. but I really think some of you have this WAY out of proportion.

 

I quote from WIKIPEDIA on GIBSON HUMMINGBIRD

 

"The necks are made by laminated 3 piece mahogany."

 

Soooooo, as most people know some/most necks are made up of laminated wood. On the Hummingbird you can't see the whole board because of the binding... Most agree the laminated FB's make no difference to the sound.... and structurally are fine.

 

WHATS the big problem guys? FFS

[stein]

Since the feds have the "Gibson Wood" and I guess you could say the feds have a "hard on" for Gibson. There out of wood.. they have no more wood to build in the way they have been building them for 100+ yrs. Doesn't Gibson own Epiphone? Aren't Epi's made in China? Call me crazy.. BUT...Couldn't Epi purchase the Indian Rosewood fretboards etc. Sand them - trim them , buff them.. whatever. Then sell it to Gibson Montana to make non-laminate bridges & fretboards? Tell me why this isn't an option?

Then it wouldn't be "made in USA"....which personally, I think is still what makes a Gibby a Gibby.

 

I do agree, there does seem to be more to the case than meets the eye. On the surface, it would seem Gibson could purchase limited supplies as they need then because they are on the market to anyone, but they don't seem to want to do that.

 

Makes me wonder if because of some reason, Gibson OR the suppliers are prevented from doing business?

 

I applaud Gibson for what looks like a refusal to do certain things in 'defiance' of what looks like wrongdoing by the feds. But I would like to see more public disclosure on what is really going on. I think it might help to expedite things to expose the truth and find the proper way to settle things for everyone.

[Eyecon]

Lacey act - The wood blank thickness is too thick for export according to Indian law, as the Feds see it. If the rosewood is coming from India too thick, it doesn't matter who the middle men are, does it? The Feds are enforcing Indian law regardless of what India has to say about it.

 

 

.

 

 

Let me ask, do other guitar makers (Martin - Taylor) import Indian Rosewood that is the correct thickness? So no hassle from the Feds? Or does all rosewood from India come "too thick"?

[stein]

I understand some concerns from a purist point of view.. but I really think some of you have this WAY out of proportion.

 

I quote from WIKIPEDIA on GIBSON HUMMINGBIRD

 

"The necks are made by laminated 3 piece mahogany."

 

Soooooo, as most people know some/most necks are made up of laminated wood. On the Hummingbird you can't see the whole board because of the binding... Most agree the laminated FB's make no difference to the sound.... and structurally are fine.

 

WHATS the big problem guys? FFS

I think this is different uses of the term 'laminate'. A three piece neck consisting of substantial thicknesses is a lot different than doing a veneer type thing, and had different results as far as strength and durability.

[BigKahune]

Let me ask, do other guitar makers (Martin - Taylor) import Indian Rosewood that is the correct thickness? So no hassle from the Feds? Or does all rosewood from India come "too thick"?

 

This 2011 India-Lacey thing started with Gibson because the paper work that accompanied the imported rosewood coded the wood at a thinner (legal by Indian law) dimension. This was so very naughty and made it appear that Gibson might've had something to do with the misleading coding. So the Feds pulled out their guns and raided Gibson. AFAIK, other manufacturers are using the same type of blanks, but never ran afoul with their paperwork. And don't forget in 2009 it was ebony source from Madagascar that got Gibson in trouble.

 

 

.

[BigKahune]

I think this is different uses of the term 'laminate'. A three piece neck consisting of substantial thicknesses is a lot different than doing a veneer type thing, and had different results as far as strength and durability.

 

I agree -

 

Laminated neck and body -

.

 

 

3-piece neck using sizable chunks of wood.

 

 

And the very twisted -

[stein]

This 2011 India-Lacey thing started with Gibson because the paper work that accompanied the imported rosewood coded the wood at a thinner (legal by Indian law) dimension. This was so very naughty and made it appear that Gibson might've had something to do with the misleading coding. So the Feds pulled out their guns and raided Gibson. AFAIK, other manufacturers are using the same type of blanks, but never ran afoul with their paperwork. And don't forget in 2009 it was ebony source from Madagascar that got Gibson in trouble.

 

 

.

I think regarding the later raid and the affidavit explaining the feds point of view, it is likely BS. If a reasonable person was just to go by that evidence, it would lead to nothing...as well as also inferring Gibson is innocent.

 

I think the reasons given by the FEDS is a smokescreen...an excuse to justify the second raid.

 

I don't think the paperwork issues stated in the affidavit have anything to do with it. I also think as far as a case and justification for the raid, the affidavit isn't worth the paper it is written on. So I think looking there for answers won't provide anything.

 

As an American, someone who has bought from Gibson and may do so again, AND as a taxpayer who is ultimately the intended recipient of the government, I feel I have a right to know WHAT they are doing and WHY they are doing it.

[stein]

I agree -

 

Laminated neck and body -

.

 

 

3-piece neck using sizable chunks of wood.

 

 

And the very twisted -

That's actually pretty cool.

[michaeljohnr]

You have no problem throwing 120 hard working honest people under the buss.

 

 

I would argue that management is doing this quite well in the matter at hand.

 

Those guys on the floor might hate making these parts, but if that's the specification what are they expected to do? Refuse and get fired?

 

Quality, is something that is perceived as much as it is something that can be held, touched and felt. In fact, perceived quality can do more damage to a product simply because more people talk about something than will actually make the effort for themselves to investigate.

 

This new multi-ply method of manufacturing the bridge may be just as reliable and sound like a solid wood component. It may not. The reality, at this point in time is the PERCEIVED quality, which unfortunately is low. That perception comes from the history of the company and it's past high benchmarks versus this. It is an unexpected turn of manufacturing (and no, Gibson does not owe us any explanation at all for this change) and unfortunately people perceive it poorly.

 

What I did notice on the OP's photo was very poor finishing on that bridge. Jointer marks are left like that? That's a poor finishing job.

 

Gibson asks a very premium price for these instruments, and in some cases obscene prices. I have purchased two Historic Les Pauls and these were in the range of what I consider obscene cost wise.

 

It's reality versus perception in this instance. Perception wins.

[ParlourMan]

The best part of your uniformed post was your Post Script. Ignorance implys just that. Lack of knowledge. My post was nothing more than setting the record straight with knowledge.

 

And you had the audacity to say 'Ivory Towers' to me?

 

I have stated my case and all your rants are now falling on deaf ears. Gibson is going thru a very difficult time and they are doing the very best to make the situation a positive one. If anyone here thinks they are taking financial advantage of the situation you are wrong.

 

Nobody has said they're getting a hard time any more than me, had you followed my posts since this issue first came up you would see where I'm coming from. At no point have I doubted the structural 'insignificance' of this decision to roll out multi-part bridges, I would agree that structurally they are likely to be stronger... what they're not will come up, it's a lengthy post I'm dealing with here ;)

 

You seem to have all the answers. Do you think that the folks at Gibson haven't visited all their options? Do you have some special information they don't? Do you have access to their business plans and know more about the situation than they? The folks making these decisions are doing their best to impact you as little as possible. Yes I know the world revolves around your "special" wisdom. Must be lonely up there in your Ivory Tower.

 

You're not a people person are you? It's quite an abrasive demeanor you have, you may not like or agree with my opinions, but at least I can conduct myself in an orderly fashion.

 

 

Your Passive/Aggressive postings are disturbing to say the least.

 

Hmmm, see above.....

 

I find it very peculilar that you have yours and it is just fine.Then you state "but I won't support them again"? I just don't get your reasoning.

 

My reasoning:

The guitars are heavily valued on perception, surely nothing argues that more than the 'Only a Gibson is good enough' banner itself, says more than any thoughts I might have, no?

The current perception has taken knock, by and large due to a step people view as being less desirable.

As such pre-Lacey Act guitars are holding a slightly more 'elite' perception, I mean at 2-4K per model we are in the 'elite' of guitars outside the boutique market aren't we?

People are paying the same if not more for a model which comes with a 'compromise', as the enthusiasts/collecters/resale customers will view it.

 

So, a common 'perceptive' view so far has listed:

higher prices for a compromised model

dimmer view on the resale market

The poor acceptance from it's focus groups (including us here)

Some even claimed dealers have steered them away from Gibson due to this

The comical link to Norlin (likely to be of real harm)

 

These range from plausible to ridiculous, as a Lacey-Act guitar owner I can say how nice the guitar sounds, I've listed my reasons for keeping it, I even posted in capital letters about it, maybe try reading my thread to get a position of where I am on it, yet I can see the other side of the coin, we must have some of the most hardcore repeat-customers in here, I'm sorry if buying only 4 in 16 months disqualifies me from that list, however, the news and general feedback doesn't make great reading. Regardless of what us, the owners, have said to the contrary. ie. fighting an uphill batlle.

 

 

Please keep your J-50 and enjoy it.

 

I will

 

 

You have no problem throwing 120 hard working honest people under the buss. They are my friends and you are encouraging others to stop buying their guitars out of your ignorance. So if everyone on this forum decides not to buy Gibson guitars because of your ranting will you sleep better? I see... Lets put 120 hard working, tax paying honest people out of work because you have your sensibilites injured.

 

I've not thrown anyone under a bus, I'm not the person who decided the factory floor was going to change the design, then roll it out to such a negative reception. My sensibilities are not injured, my sensibilities are that I have bought a great guitar, found out it's one of the less popular 'Lacey-Act' models, decided that I had followed my ears because I was there to buy a hummingbird, weighed up my options of a no quibbles return and then posted rather verbosely why I've decided to keep the guitar even though it has these 'compromises'.

 

Yes I will fight for my friends and your public assult will not elicite a gentlemanly responce from me. I am no gentleman and have never claimed to be. Ask Buc. This is serious business and saying flippant, hurtful things like "I will be less likely to support them again" and "I would never buy another one of these new" is not helping.

 

No, I would never call you a gentleman. You've really no idea how badly your coming across.

 

As for the "I'd never buy another one new", well, if they're going to become available on the second hand market at decent prices because the owner got hacked off by their 'perceptive' reputation and decided to sell, why would I? Quote me where I've said I think they're lesser in actual quality or have a bad sound, you won't be able to... my thoughts and assessments are based totally on the reactions of the user groups across forums where this has come up. As just another member with his own opinion do you really think I'm capable of such opinion sway? My posts have only spoke negatively of the business decisions, pomdered some of the business options that may or may not be open to them. I have not criticised the actual guitars only how they will be perceived

 

 

When you are wrong I will call you out... You are wrong....

 

 

Consistent to the last. You're actually quite a bad advert for Gibson if you are in any way affiliated, just as well we have an excellent advert for the company in Mr Morten who comes here. He knows how to deal with and go out of his way to help Gibson customers (myself several times) rather than perform textual chest-beating and attacking its repeat customers.

 

I have dignified you with a response but please learn some common good manners,it could benefit you greatly.

 

 

[j45nick]

I think regarding the later raid and the affidavit explaining the feds point of view, it is likely BS. If a reasonable person was just to go by that evidence, it would lead to nothing...as well as also inferring Gibson is innocent.

 

I think the reasons given by the FEDS is a smokescreen...an excuse to justify the second raid.

 

I don't think the paperwork issues stated in the affidavit have anything to do with it. I also think as far as a case and justification for the raid, the affidavit isn't worth the paper it is written on. So I think looking there for answers won't provide anything.

 

As an American, someone who has bought from Gibson and may do so again, AND as a taxpayer who is ultimately the intended recipient of the government, I feel I have a right to know WHAT they are doing and WHY they are doing it.

 

 

Stein, you have read JT's objective and informative article on the Gibson case, haven't you?

 

There sometimes seems to be a knee-jerk reaction in this country that if the federal government does something, it must be wrong. It isn't always that simple.

 

(I can already hear retrorod revving up his engine to pounce on that one, so I'll just go back into my corner.)

[Eyecon]

This 2011 India-Lacey thing started with Gibson because the paper work that accompanied the imported rosewood coded the wood at a thinner (legal by Indian law) dimension. This was so very naughty and made it appear that Gibson might've had something to do with the misleading coding. So the Feds pulled out their guns and raided Gibson. AFAIK, other manufacturers are using the same type of blanks, but never ran afoul with their paperwork. And don't forget in 2009 it was ebony source from Madagascar that got Gibson in trouble.

 

 

.

 

 

Well this thread has become personal between some and I'm sure it will be locked then deleted soon, But before it does.

 

Okay, let the Feds keep the "wrongly coded" wood. Big loss financially for Gibson over the cost of purchasing/importing. Why can't Gibson buy more? Do they not have the cash? Gibson should buy from the exact same supplier that other guitar makers buy from. Is there not any rosewood left to buy in India? Or any other place that has good quality rosewood and ebony for sale? Or does India run it's wood exports like Seinfeld's Soup Nazi.. "NO WOOD FOR YOU!"

 

Or perhaps does this run deeper. The laminate decision not being based on shortage, but an opportunity to maximize dollars and use the shortage as the reason.

 

Just seems to me that if other makers can currently get their hands on good solid wood for bridges and fretboards, then so can Gibson. This is such a quagmire.

[stein]

Stein, you have read JT's objective and informative article on the Gibson case, haven't you?

 

There sometimes seems to be a knee-jerk reaction in this country that if the federal government does something, it must be wrong. It isn't always that simple.

 

(I can already hear retrorod revving up his engine to pounce on that one, so I'll just go back into my corner.)

I have read all his stuff posted or linked here, and I appreciate it too.

 

I think ALL we really have in the end are inferences and innuendo. I would challenge ANYONE to come out and say what is REALLY going on, and that goes for either side. Gibson says they are innocent, the Feds say they are guilty. As it stands right now, IF Gibson is guilty of something, we have yet to see it.

 

As far as the public is concerned, Gibson has made a pretty good case that they are not doing anything wrong. That don't make it true, but as far as anyone can see, it might seem so and they HAVE called out the Feds to show or prove otherwise. As far as the Feds are concerned, they may have something, they may not. So where is it? If it IS actually in the "evidence" presented to the public, or the court documents presented, they not only have a weak case, but Gibson has a good case to show the are being wrongfully targeted. IF that is what they got, then I would think they should be required to answer some hard questions regarding their place as a recipient of tax dollars and the use of their authority.

 

I may have my own opinions and observations, and they might be only opinions based on what I see and can judge. Between the 2 sides here, I feel I have a right to question the Government more than I do Gibson. And when the Government HASN'T shown accountability when asked or challenged (as Gibson has), I see that as a problem for everyone.

[onewilyfool]

Well this thread has become personal between some and I'm sure it will be locked then deleted soon, But before it does.

 

Okay, let the Feds keep the "wrongly coded" wood. Big loss financially for Gibson over the cost of purchasing/importing. Why can't Gibson buy more? Do they not have the cash? Gibson should buy from the exact same supplier that other guitar makers buy from. Is there not any rosewood left to buy in India? Or any other place that has good quality rosewood and ebony for sale? Or does India run it's wood exports like Seinfeld's Soup Nazi.. "NO WOOD FOR YOU!"

 

Or perhaps does this run deeper. The laminate decision not being based on shortage, but an opportunity to maximize dollars and use the shortage as the reason.

 

Just seems to me that if other makers can currently get their hands on good solid wood for bridges and fretboards, then so can Gibson. This is such a quagmire.

I agree.....they have had 3 years to find a suitable supplier....it just smacks of "lie by omission" by not informing buyers of the changes, and profiteering....just maximizing profit, quality be damned. I was just at the local Gibson store, and talking to the manager, he informed me that they knew about the fretboards but NOT the bridges. As an aside, ALL the Epiphone acoustics (not just the Masterbilts)had solid bridges and solid fretboards (ironic isn't it? the cheap import has better specs than the USA made?).......couldn't the parent company just ask Epiphone to share some of their wood....or DEMAND it??? This whole episode just STINKS!

 

By the way, I checked out some of the "baked" maple fretboards, you could still see the maple grain, but the color wasn't bad. I don't know how deep the color goes, but it was passible and solid. Les Paul purists are probably not going to be content......

 

By the way again....the argument that the lowering of specifications is some how stronger and more stable, smacks of when I get a letter from my health insurance company that in order to "serve me better" they are removing several coverages that they provided before and raising the price of coverage.....it is just tooo transparent

 

By the way again....the wood the government took was from the Nashville plant destined for their Les Pauls, etc.... this wood had nothing to do with Bozeman.....it just gets worse and worse...

[j45nick]

 

By the way again....the wood the government took was from the Nashville plant destined for their Les Pauls, etc.... this wood had nothing to do with Bozeman.....it just gets worse and worse...

 

Well, that just confuses the heck out of things, doesn't it?

[onewilyfool]

Well, it makes you wonder why the specs are changing at the Bozeman plant when they were not affected by the government raid????? Again....this acoustic debacle just stinks.....Norlin all over...

[Eyecon]

I am considering one of those Limited "Golden Age" J200's. At 6k+ I think I would like to get verification of ALL SOLID WOOD (neck excluded), impeccable choice of tone woods and unsurpassed attention to detail - before I fork over the cash.

[Morkolo]

Humility? Me?? Not likley...

Now about the humidity thing. If you keep your guitar in the recommended humidity range you will have no problem with the glue joints on any part of your guitar. If you raise the humidity above the recomended level your top will crack before the glue joint gives away on your bridge or fretboard. I suppose that if you subjected the laminated joints to the level that they failed you would have destroyed not only the joint but the rest of the guitar as well. So... You are right and I stand corrected. The glue joints can fail. Its just that the entire guitar will fail before they do.

 

Please keep in mind that Gibson offers a lifetime warranty on their guitars. Do you honestly believe that they would build a part to fail just so they could go to the expense of fixing it?

 

Once again your points are flawed, mostly on technicalities but ones that are game changers. You claim that if you keep your guitar in the recommended humidity range you will have no problem with the glue joints on any part of your guitar, fair enough but as was already mentioned how do explain all of the warranty claims based on wood shrinkage from improperly dried wood. What I'm saying is if everything is built properly and carefully than basically as you say a cautious owner should have no issues. This is essentially what your points are based on but the fact remains that Gibson has released guitars to the buying public personally verified by their quality control staff, constructed by their team of luthiers, using woods selected by their team of experts in their given field with issues that should have been caught by all three of these divisions. As is the case with any issue with wood these problems can only be taken on a case by case method, meaning where a glue join may fail because of a green piece on one board causing all kinds of havoc another may have zero issues. So basically if constructed properly normal preventative measures should ensure a long and happy life for any given instrument, but when products are being released to the public without that fine attention to detail than the normal set of tolerances based on observations from a quality built instrument cannot be used to gauge the reliability of a lesser built product... be that because of quality control, workmanship or materials used. So the fact remains that construction methods can fail and given the fact that certain materials haven't been installed properly on what are supposed to be finely crafted instruments simply dictates that the top might not be the first place to fail.

 

As for the warranty, here in Canada we get a 1 year warranty with every new Gibson. Once the year is over we're SOL...