Why buy a new Chinese built Epiphone?

[wellercasino]

I am pondering a question.

 

I would like to hear peoples opinions on why it would be a good idea to buy a new, made in China epiphone.

 

My thinking behind this is reading some recent posts regarding the new 62 reissue Sheraton models. I am using this guitar as an example only, as my thoughts would also relate to other models such as the Casino, Les Paul, SG etc etc.

 

 

The purchase price of the Sheraton reissue, in the UK is approximately £600 to £650 depending on where you buy and which model you choose.

 

Do you think this is good value? I ask this for several reasons. I realise the 62 reissue has "Gibson" mini humbuckers and a frequensator tailpiece, where as the usual version normally sold has full size humbuckers and a stop bar.

 

Do you think this small change in spec would be enough reason to buy this guitar at its current asking price say compared to;

 

A, The standard Chinese version which is cheaper,

 

B, A used Korean Sheraton from say the late 80s or early 90s, saving about £200 in the process. The Korean guitars are known for their fairly high build quality. You could upgrade the pickups and still save money.

 

C, A Japanese model from the Matsumoku or Terada factories. A little more expensive but a much higher quality guitar. Hard to find but well worth the wait?

 

D, A used Elitist model. Made in Japan, superb quality. Again a little bit higher priced but you wont lose any money on it because the guy that purchased it new took the hit.

 

 

As i said, i use the Sheraton as an example but the argument, for and against applies to most models in the line up.

 

I would like to hear what other people think

[wiggy]

I would suggest that the best approach is not to fixate on where the guitar is made and go for the one which feels the best in your hands.

 

Ultimately the guitar is simply one part of a chain of tools whose sole purpose is to allow you to translate what you hear in your head to a sound emanating from the loudspeaker. If the cheapest, worst chucked together piece of rubbish does that better in your hands than the ultimate custom built work of luthier's art then that is the one to chose.

 

Mind you - if it looks good it doesn't suck!!

[ant7629]

Great post!

 

I would say that the price of £600 for a reissue Sheraton is about right IMO. If you consider a that a Sheraton II is around £450 new, that is with stock pickups and no case. Not even a gigbag.

 

The 1962 has USA mini humbuckers (around £150 a set) and an Epi hard case (at least £50). Although I am biased because I really want one of these.........

[bobouz]

Last year's 50th Anniversary '61 Casino provided a lot of bang for the buck, and this new Sheraton appears to be cut of the same cloth. You're getting Gibson pickups and a case in the package, so it should represent a better overall value compared to the standard Sheraton, imho. That said, a used Korean-made Sheraton also offers a lot of quality at a lower price point, and people often will be selling them with a case. If you can afford to go in the other financial direction, the Elitist or AIUSA Sheratons are hard to beat - but the trick is finding one! A few months ago I did manage to pick up a John Lee Hooker AIUSA Sheraton, and the quality is amazingly first rate. Final verdict: I'd recommend getting the best guitar you can afford.

[indiekiduk]

It's hard to tell without trying one. The ES-355 looked great in spec and the pics however it's terrible quality, both times I tried they fell apart in my hands. A new Sheraton 62 is $799 with hard case but I saw a used Sheraton II in excellent condition on craigslist for only $380 with a hard case. If the 62 is well made then the premium just for collect-ability is worth it, only 1,961 are being made, however if the quality is as bad as the 355 then it's a plain waste of money. The supply constraint forces us to take a risk on ordering online without playing so be sure to order from somewhere with a no quibble return policy, however returning a guitar by mail is a total pain. It might be worth holding off until some others get them and report on the quality, and hopefully there will be some youtube videos soon too.

[wellercasino]

I appreciate the replys so far. They all have an interesting angle on this conundrum.

 

Another example i try and understand, but cant ever find the answer too is why someone would buy a new "inspired by Lennon Casino", when for very similar money they could buy a nearly new, mint Elitist Casino which is, in my opinion, a much better guitar in all respects. Not only that, but you know when you take the "inspired" home you have just lost at least 25% of what you paid due to depreciation but you could sell the Elitist the next day and get your same money back that you paid.

 

Am i missing something here??????

[stein]

ANY time you buy ANYTHING new, it depreciates. Just the way it is.

 

You also have to consider, when you buy something, you aren't just paying for that "thing". If you buy from a dealer, the dealer WILL get money. He gets a cut. Any store or company gets a cut of the action.

 

I think one way of looking at it, is that when you buy a new guitar, some of what you pay is for the price of the guitar, and some is for the dealer. The cut for the dealer you can't get back. So, what do you want for that "extra"?

 

Personally, the way I look at it is a new guitar gives you choice. The service is the dealer stocks the stuff, so I can walk in and be able to try guitars. Trying a number of guitars to find the one I like and fits me the best is worth the extra money. It isn't always about what whether this guitar or that one is "better", it's about what I think is better. Better for me. I am spending money to play it and use it.

 

If I am worried about making money on the deal or loosing money, or how much "value" it will loose, then I would be investing the money somewhere so it might make money or be safe. Guitars are a bad choice for that.

[bobouz]

Personally, the way I look at it is a new guitar gives you choice. The service is the dealer stocks the stuff, so I can walk in and be able to try guitars. Trying a number of guitars to find the one I like and fits me the best is worth the extra money.

Totally agree. Would you rather take a shot at one guitar via the internet, or multiple stores full of many guitars to choose from? Sometimes a particular guitar is not available locally, but if it is, I don't mind paying more for the opportunity to play it first hand & find one that truly feels right. In the best of all worlds, you might have the opportunity to sample two or three of the same instrument. Every time I've been fortunate enough to sample multiple examples of the same model, one guitar has always stood out above the rest.

[wellercasino]

ANY time you buy ANYTHING new, it depreciates. Just the way it is.

 

You also have to consider, when you buy something, you aren't just paying for that "thing". If you buy from a dealer, the dealer WILL get money. He gets a cut. Any store or company gets a cut of the action.

 

I think one way of looking at it, is that when you buy a new guitar, some of what you pay is for the price of the guitar, and some is for the dealer. The cut for the dealer you can't get back. So, what do you want for that "extra"?

 

Personally, the way I look at it is a new guitar gives you choice. The service is the dealer stocks the stuff, so I can walk in and be able to try guitars. Trying a number of guitars to find the one I like and fits me the best is worth the extra money. It isn't always about what whether this guitar or that one is "better", it's about what I think is better. Better for me. I am spending money to play it and use it.

 

If I am worried about making money on the deal or loosing money, or how much "value" it will loose, then I would be investing the money somewhere so it might make money or be safe. Guitars are a bad choice for that.

 

 

Hi Stein,

 

I appreciate what you are saying. The aim of the discussion is whether or not the new Chinese guitars offer value for money compared to used examples manufactured in Korea and Japan. I suppose i am assuming that after trying guitars they all work and play as they should so the reason for buying would come down to price and quality of finish etc etc. In this scenario i am asking for peoples opinions on whether or not the Chinese guitars really make sense.

 

Adrian

[antwhi2001]

I've bought over a dozen Epis over the years, my policy is usually to buy secondhand, on e-bay, and aim for Korean Epis 1999-2005 era.

 

1. I've never had a bad one, whereas I've been disappointed with 2 new Chinese ones;

2. You can get them at a good price, so if you were disappointed you can either (a) re-sell and get about the same amount of money back, or (B) put some of the money you saved into upgrades. Again, I buy Gibson or SD pickups secondhand on e-bay for less than half the cost of new ones, and fit them myself;

3. A few scratches and dings don't bother me as long as it plays ok. If I buy a shiny new guitar it isn't long before it's scratched anyway.

 

I'm a serial GAS sufferer who buys and sells several guitars a year, mostly e-bay used guitars. The guitars I've had most quality problems with have been ones I bought new. If you buy a 10 year old guitar that's been played regularly, any underlying set up problems have usually been fixed. I just ask if the frets are worn, pretty much anything else I can fix myself.

 

Here in the UK guitar shops are smaller, so going to a bricks-and-mortar retailer doesn't necessarily mean they will have lots of versions for you to try out. Often it's one of each. We don't have Guitar Centre!

[Alan7140]

"why it would be a good idea to buy a new, made in China epiphone"

 

As it happens I have done exactly that - I had originally ordered a Gretsch 6122-II (Japanese made) but the Internet deal turned sour, so I bought a brand new Chinese Epiphone ES-345 LTD and rebuilt/replaced the important bits: rewired, replaced pots & 3-way with Switchcraft gear, Orange Drop caps, bypassed both the 6-way switch and stereo wiring and wired as for a standard Sheraton II, replaced knobs & switch head with Gibson genuine parts, replaced the nut with a Tusq Graphite item, new "E" logo truss cover, polished the frets, waxed/darkened the fretboard, straightened the crookedly mounted Bigsby, mounted the supplied scratchplate, most importantly replaced the pickups with TV Jones Classic pickups with gold covers in "English" mount, replaced the strings and did a setup. All up cost $1,000+ less than the Gretsch would have.

 

Guitar sounds brilliant, plays superbly, very slick, with a really low action and no fret buzz or string snags at the nut, so even heavy use of the Bigsby doesn't send the thing out of tune. Really pleased with the way the whole deal has turned out. There's no problem buying cheap known-brand instruments, just that they need some finishing and modification to make them really good.

 

[stein]

Hi Stein,

 

I appreciate what you are saying. The aim of the discussion is whether or not the new Chinese guitars offer value for money compared to used examples manufactured in Korea and Japan. I suppose i am assuming that after trying guitars they all work and play as they should so the reason for buying would come down to price and quality of finish etc etc. In this scenario i am asking for peoples opinions on whether or not the Chinese guitars really make sense.

 

Adrian

OK, I get it now.

 

So, I think this comes down to a question of Korean being better than Chinese, or Japan being better than both.

 

I think most of the rep of Korean Epi's being superior is myth. Korean Guitars have had the same problems as the Chinese, and even the Japanese ones over the years. The reverse is also true, in that there have been some really good runs of Chinese Epi's recently.

 

I think the origin of this MAY come from the quality of the SAMICK built ones, which were fairly good. And kind of the point of that might be, you have to look at WHO made it, not where. Samick does Chinese too.

 

At the same time, during varirous times, the Chinese ones had different specs, such as the one piece necks vs the 5 piece. This might make a guy look for an older one, which might happen to be made in Korea, over the new one, which might happen to be made in China.

 

I remember the Samick ones when I used to work at Guitar Center in the late 80's. They had their problems, just like the Chinese ones sometimes do now. As someone mentioned, by now the bad parts would be long replaced. And, perhaps the ones that were really bad are firewood. But don't think that every late 80's/early 90's one will be a gem. I can testify not every one was good or great.

[milod]

You can get a pickle regardless what you buy.

 

There are, to me, some questions on guitars from China whether in any case the "pickle factor" is due to the manufacturing process or whether it's due to travel... materials qualities, etc.

 

I've been quite happy with my Chinese Epis. I've also concluded that one should let them adjust to climate a bit in terms of the wood, neck, etc., etc., before complaining too much unless a switch just plain doesn't work. But even that to an extent might have been climate-caused.

 

Any factory making a partially hand-made item of any kind, especially using wood, will have some problems. A lot of that is aging and transportation, though.

 

m

[disaster]

I can't speak for every epi model but my chinese made SG is a great little guitar. Very well made, impeccable attention to detail, solid, exceptional finish, and great quality. It was ready to play right out of the box. I enjoy it immensely. I am very impressed with it and I think it is a superb value. I believe it is on-par with the Student Edition (SE) PRS guitars which I think are the cream of the budget priced instruments. To be fair, however, the value of all of the budget instruments on the market today are very impressive. It's amazing how much guitar $1000 will buy today. This is all thanks to super low labor rates throughout asia & adequate competition in the marketplace.

 

I should note that I have a Custom Shop/Limited Edition version of the SG. Based on my examination of the epis on the market the CS label does matter. I think they are better made & have better finishes. This may just be the experience I had shopping SGs & LPs but if there's Custom Shop version available I would definitely put it at the top of your list.

 

Happy searching.

[Jeffery Smith]

You could have convinced me with the photo of the ES 345 alone. What a beauty!

[clarkuss]

I play a chinese Casino regularly and it does the job. I suppose with a chinese epiphone though you really need to play it to know whether you're going to like it because I've had some bad ones too and played some rotters in the shops but also a lot of good ones.

 

The appeal of the current chinese stuff for me is the look and the vibe because they've got that 60s look that the korean ones don't have. You can always make some tweaks here and there to get it feeling better in your hands.

[milod]

For one thing, the Chinese factory is run by Gibson; the Korean factories were contracted.

 

I believe a cupla years ago Epi Jim said they had upgraded the pots, and switches. I dunno, but no problems with any of my Chinese Epis.

 

m

[Greybeard]

"why it would be a good idea to buy a new, made in China epiphone"

 

As it happens I have done exactly that - I had originally ordered a Gretsch 6122-II (Japanese made) but the Internet deal turned sour, so I bought a brand new Chinese Epiphone ES-345 LTD and rebuilt/replaced the important bits: rewired, replaced pots & 3-way with Switchcraft gear, Orange Drop caps, bypassed both the 6-way switch and stereo wiring and wired as for a standard Sheraton II, replaced knobs & switch head with Gibson genuine parts, replaced the nut with a Tusq Graphite item, new "E" logo truss cover, polished the frets, waxed/darkened the fretboard, straightened the crookedly mounted Bigsby, mounted the supplied scratchplate, most importantly replaced the pickups with TV Jones Classic pickups with gold covers in "English" mount, replaced the strings and did a setup. All up cost $1,000+ less than the Gretsch would have.

 

Guitar sounds brilliant, plays superbly, very slick, with a really low action and no fret buzz or string snags at the nut, so even heavy use of the Bigsby doesn't send the thing out of tune. Really pleased with the way the whole deal has turned out. There's no problem buying cheap known-brand instruments, just that they need some finishing and modification to make them really good.

 

 

 

 

I bought the same guitar a few months back and did a lot of the same mods but kept the Varitone in the circuit. The guitar looked and played great but I was quite disappointed with the quality of the electrical components. Of all the things that I did that were similar to your mods, I did not change the nut. Can you tell me where you got the nut you used on yours?

[Alan7140]

I bought the same guitar a few months back and did a lot of the same mods but kept the Varitone in the circuit. The guitar looked and played great but I was quite disappointed with the quality of the electrical components. Of all the things that I did that were similar to your mods, I did not change the nut. Can you tell me where you got the nut you used on yours?

 

 

It's a Graphtech Tusq XL nut, bought on eBay from a local Australian store (hansmusicspot.com).

[Greybeard]

It's a Graphtech Tusq XL nut, bought on eBay from a local Australian store (hansmusicspot.com).

 

 

Thanks!! I've looked into a few others and have not been able to get convinced about any particular one.

 

I'm glad someone brought up this topic about the differences in manufacturing at the different sites. I've got three Epis and had been quite satisfied with the first two I bought a few years back. As I said earlier, this Chinese one looks good and plays good but the internal components have been disappointing. Maybe in the end the cheap electrical components that the Chinese factory used actually made me do something to upgrade the guitar into a better product. I wrote a letter to Epi and commented on my disappointment and told them what I was going to do after owning the guitar for about three weeks. I also told them that I knew I was voiding the warranty on a new guitar. Didn't get a reply.

 

Having been an electrical engineer for thirty plus years, I've seen a lot of good electrical components and some that were not so good. What I've also seen is that the difference in cost of the good ones isn't that much higher than the junky stuff that is out there. We're not talking about high tech stuff here in a few pots and caps. If the people at Epi that bought the electrical components had the same attitude about quality as the people that made the body of my ES-345 there would not have been a problem.

[Oldhippie]

Hi, I own two MIC Epis...a Wildkat and a Standard LP.

Both are very nice build guitars. I couldn´t tell the difference between others. And soundwise the are same as others.

In case to buy another guitar I wouldn´t hesitate to buy a chinese.

[Septic]

It's only the variability of Chinese made models that worries me.

 

As has been mentioned before, the quality of everything electrical between pickup and amp makes a surprisingly large difference not only to the actual signal, but to how you "feel" about the sound you get from it and if you add the fact that ALL stringed instruments "evolve" a distinctive character as they are "played in" it's almost impossible to predict how good they really are.

 

We do know that the grain structure in many Chinese examples is more open than that of other origins and therefore could be more prone to changes in tension, tone and sustain over time and I believe that while some may improve substantially with use, others may become dull and thin sounding to a degree that will disappoint their owners.

 

It's my view that as long as you take the time to play and inspect as many as possible in order to find the one with the tightest, straightest grain (where visible), best quality construction, most carefully fitted binding etc and a good, clear sound to start with, then you should have a very nice guitar, that if you change all the pots, switches and caps will develop good character, sing like a bird and cost you far less than an equally sweet instrument costing two, or three times as much.

[AldoMcD1]

An interesting read:

 

Epiphone Korea Vs Epiphone China

[wellercasino]

An interesting read:

 

Epiphone Korea Vs Epiphone China

Quite an interesting article. I can't help thinking that the numbers produced is way out. In the 70s some of the Japanese factories were putting out 40 thousand units a month. I would imagine that epiphones worldwide sales would mean production at several thousand units per month.

[antwhi2001]

That Korea v China post matches my experience exactly. I've owned several of each and the Samick "S" series models from the late 1990s have all been great build quality. (2 Les Pauls, a Sheraton, a G400, a Sorrento). My Usung Alleykat was great too. I've had 2 Chinese Les Pauls and a 339; I will avoid Chinese from now on.