Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 This is a bummer I just looked under my top, and as you can see in the pictures, I've got a hole right in the middle of my bridge pin holes. Looks like the G string ball end is all inside this hole. This is a '91 SJ45. I am not the original owner. How would you get the string into a groove in this case? WTH !!! I'm thinking about the new J35.... can any owners check to see if this is an issue on these 2013 models This is getting more serious...and i think it hasn't caused a real pallaver because most people have not or are unable to see the bridge plate in their Bozeman Gibsons.... thats the first thing I will be checking on any new Gibson purchase from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 It seems this plate the hole is also all the way thru the plate...and the ball end is actually being held in place by the top ? !!!!!!! this is fffing crazy ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 This is a bummer I just looked under my top, and as you can see in the pictures, I've got a hole right in the middle of my bridge pin holes. Looks like the G string ball end is all inside this hole. This is a '91 SJ45. I am not the original owner. How would you get the string into a groove in this case? That one is certainly a bit extreme. I would still try to shift the ball end to the opposite side, hold it at about 2 o'clock (if dead on straight were noon) while bringing up string tension, and see if you can get it to catch on it's own, or press/file in the groove. Based on the way some of the other strings have dug into the plate, it looks like fairly soft wood, so the string might dig in easily. At some point, I really do think you should address the overall structural integrity of this plate with a luthier. Note: A neat trick I've seen, if someone wants to avoid having the old plate ripped out & a new one made, is to fashion a small mini-plate out of maple or birch, and glue it directly onto the original plate. Then drill holes, and you've got a whole new seating surface. It sounds crude, but the examples I've seen were very nicely done, and probably added very little weight/mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 It seems this plate the hole is also all the way thru the plate...and the ball end is actually being held in place by the top ? !!!!!!! Yes it is, and that's the worst case scenario. It's actually resting directly against the spruce top, and being held in place by the top and the bridge above it. This puts pressure right where it's not supposed to be. The top & bridge can probably handle one string doing this for quite a while, but two strings, like in the OP's post, would of course double the pressure. Regardless, there's a risk of the bridge being lifted, or the top being cracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Everyone needs to take a deep breath and step back from the edge. The top and the bridge plate have the same hole drilled into them. This is done to locate the top on the body. Before the bridge is glued onto the the top the hole thru the top and bridge plate is filled with a wood dowel. The photos you are showing is just exactly what can go wrong when attention to detail is not followed. This type of situation was a battle between the engineers?( only one has a degree) and the master luthier. Ren. This constant battle was the biggest of many reasons Ren left. That dowel should be flush with the bridge plate for cosmetic not structural reasons and in many of the photos it was cut to short and doesn't fill the entire cavity. The string is NOT resting on the top. The top will NOT be damaged by this situation. Everyone needs to stop speculating and wait for Gibson to respond. Jeremy may be in Germany at the Trade show so lets all just calm down a bit. Under any conditions this is sloppy and careless workmanship and should not be tolerated. The guitars in question should be fixed at no expence to the owner. Having said this there is NO concern about the ball end damaging the top. I would string them as usual as the ball end is resting on the dowel that has been glued in the hole. I wouldn't be slotting the bridge pin hole to stop this as it may void any warranty you may have. I can't see any reason why some of the string holes are well away from the locating, dowel filled, hole and others are drilled way to close to it. There is no excuse for bad design and the sooner this is addressed the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Yes it is, and that's the worst case scenario. It's actually resting directly against the spruce top, and being held in place by the top and the bridge above it. This puts pressure right where it's not supposed to be. The top & bridge can probably handle one string doing this for quite a while, but two strings, like in the OP's post, would of course double the pressure. Regardless, there's a risk of the bridge being lifted, or the top being cracked. This is not the case. The hole is drilled thru the top and the bridge plate.Then when when the top is glued on the guitar the hole is filled with a wood dowel. The ball end of the strings in question are NOT resting on the top. They are resting on the dowel. The dowel was cut to short leaving a small bit of a cavity when it should be flush with the bridge plate. I'm not sure where you are getting your information but it is NOT correct. There is no danger of the top being damaged by this situation. The strings are in no danger of contacting the top or the bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Everyone needs to take a deep breath and step back from the edge. The top and the bridge plate have the same hole drilled into them. This is done to locate the top on the body. Before the bridge is glued onto the the top the hole thru the top and bridge plate is filled with a wood dowel. The photos you are showing is just exactly what can go wrong when attention to detail is not followed. This type of situation was a battle between the engineers?( only one has a degree) and the master luthier. Ren. This constant battle was the biggest of many reasons Ren left. That dowel should be flush with the bridge plate for cosmetic not structural reasons and in many of the photos it was cut to short and doesn't fill the entire cavity. The string is NOT resting on the top. The top will NOT be damaged by this situation. Everyone needs to stop speculating and wait for Gibson to respond. Jeremy may be in Germany at the Trade show so lets all just calm down a bit. Under any conditions this is sloppy and careless workmanship and should not be tolerated. The guitars in question should be fixed at no expence to the owner. Having said this there is NO concern about the ball end damaging the top. I would string them as usual as the ball end is resting on the dowel that has been glued in the hole. I wouldn't be slotting the bridge pin hole to stop this as it may void any warranty you may have. I can't see any reason why some of the string holes are well away from the locating, dowel filled, hole and others are drilled way to close to it. There is no excuse for bad design and the sooner this is addressed the better. Im sorry Hogeye..i can make no sense of 90% of your post is it just me ? Are you looking at the same photos as me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trvlr Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 The top and the bridge plate have the same hole drilled into them. This is done to locate the top on the body. Hogeye - the last sentence, did you mean to say "this is done to locate the "bridge plate" on the body? Interesting info - thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby b Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I have the same 'hole' in mine ( 2011 HB TV ) but it is well away from the bridge pin holes. Do all these guitars in question have bolts coming down through the plate, like in the above pics? Mine sure doesn't ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I understand the holes thru the bridge..then the top then the plate will be filled with a dowel..to line everything up ? Yes? but this is clearly not the case here...as in other photos Gibson are making an extra hole in the plate..which does not go thru the full plate... for guide placement it seems to me that this example the " GUIDE" hole goes thru the full plate..and indeed the ball end is resting on the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I have the same 'hole' in mine ( 2011 HB TV ) but it is well away from the bridge pin holes. Do all these guitars in question have bolts coming down through the plate, like in the above pics? Mine sure doesn't ... No Bobby...this is how all bridges used to be attached by Gibson I beleive they stopped using bolts some time ago..and now just glue the bridge on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I understand the holes thru the bridge..then the top then the plate will be filled with a dowel..to line everything up ? Yes? but this is clearly not the case here...as in other photos Gibson are making an extra hole in the plate..which does not go thru the full plate... for guide placement it seems to me that this example the " GUIDE" hole goes thru the full plate..and indeed the ball end is resting on the top. The hole in question is the so called locating hole. When the top is braced the bridge plate is also attached. There are no holes in anything. They need to attach the top to the body. So... they drill a hole thru the top and the bridge plate. Then they use this hole to align the top to the body. It's very simple. When the top is glued to the body correctly the hole is of no further use so then they fill the hole with a dowel and glue it in place. You can't see the hole from the top as the bridge covers it. If you go to the first page of this post you will see the first photo. There is a very clear photo of the hole in question. The dowel is visible. It clearly shows the string holes to close to the dowel filled hole in question. When they have the top finished they put the bridge on the guitar. When the bridge has been glued on to the top and the glue has dried they drill the string holes in the bridge. The holes go thru the bridge and then thru the top and bridge plate. I'm sorry I can't communicate this as well as I should but I will try. You have 6 string holes in the bridge plate for the strings. Then there is a bigger hole in the center of the bridge plate This is the hole in question. It has been filled with a dowel. This is shown quite clearly in the first photos on the first page of this post.Please reference this photo. There is also another hole that has been drilled in the saddle slot thru the top and bridge plate. This hole is there to locate a tranceducer wire if your guitar has one. Your statement is not correct. The ball end of the string can never rest on the top. NEVER... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby b Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 No Bobby...this is how all bridges used to be attached by Gibson I beleive they stopped using bolts some time ago..and now just glue the bridge on I see, I knew some real early 60's had 'em. I was asking because the above pic is of a 91. Didnt think that was ever a 'Bozeman' practice ..... ya live and learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 The hole in question is the so called locating hole. When the top is braced the bridge plate is also attached. There are no holes in anything. They need to attach the top to the body. So... they drill a hole thru the top and the bridge plate. Then they use this hole to align the top to the body. It's very simple. When the top is glued to the body correctly the hole is of no further use so then they fill the hole with a dowel and glue it in place. You can't see the hole from the top as the bridge covers it. If you go to the first page of this post you will see the first photo. There is a very clear photo of the hole in question. The dowel is visible. It clearly shows the string holes to close to the dowel filled hole in question. When they have the top finished they put the bridge on the guitar. When the bridge has been glued on to the top and the glue has dried they drill the string holes in the bridge. The holes go thru the bridge and then thru the top and bridge plate. I'm sorry I can't communicate this as well as I should but I will try. You have 6 string holes in the bridge plate for the strings. Then there is a bigger hole in the center of the bridge plate This is the hole in question. It has been filled with a dowel. This is shown quite clearly in the first photos on the first page of this post.Please reference this photo. There is also another hole that has been drilled in the saddle slot thru the top and bridge plate. This hole is there to locate a tranceducer wire if your guitar has one. Your statement is not correct. The ball end of the string can never rest on the top. NEVER... thanks for taking the time to try and explain the build process Hogeye.. I appreciate your knowledge here but what you are decribing is not the issue here I beleive. This issue came to light in another thread..and we discussed what these guide INDENTATIONS may be. the issue we have been discussing is the Bozeman practice of having an INDENTATION in the bridge plate..that does not go all the way thru the plate...and we found out..from your self I beleive..that this is a guide for something. i have the same guide groove in my HB TV..it is at least an inch from the pin holes...and if it was a hole thu the top..and plate..it would show up infront of the bridge thu the actual body of the guitar..It is not a hole in the plate...merely an indentation. Now,,,what you are describing is still a little bit unclear to me... I have never seen a plate like the one you mention in the first post of this thread...with the dowel clearly visible..this may be my limited knowledge of guitar building. that asisde...the most recent photo's clearly show a hole thru the full plate...and from the colour and texture of the wood underneath..i would say the ball end is now resting on the top. you say this can never happen ? well what if you had no bridge plate?..then the string ball end would rest on the top no ? So if you have a hole all the way thru the plate..where the ball end is supposed to rest...then surely...it is simply resting on the top of the guitar ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PickitPaul Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 .the most recent photo's clearly show a hole thru the full plate...and from the colour and texture of the wood underneath..i would say the ball end is now resting on the top. The color that you see is actually a blob of glue that came through the hole when bridge plate was glued on, and I just noticed this, its not the top wood. However, I can't see the dowel since the glue blob is covering it up. So if you have a hole all the way thru the plate..where the ball end is supposed to rest...then surely...it is simply resting on the top of the guitar ? As Hogeye explained (Thank You, by the way) there is always a dowel inserted into the hole, which in my case is cut short and is not flush with bridge plate, and a blob of glue is resting on top of the dowel. If there was no dowel, then the ball end of string would simply pull through the bridge plate and out of the guitar, since there is a hole in the spruce top as well as the bridge plate locator hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 The color that you see is actually a blob of glue that came through the hole when bridge plate was glued on, and I just noticed this, its not the top wood. However, I can't see the dowel since the glue blob is covering it up. As Hogeye explained (Thank You, by the way) there is always a dowel inserted into the hole, which in my case is cut short and is not flush with bridge plate, and a blob of glue is resting on top of the dowel. If there was no dowel, then the ball end of string would simply pull through the bridge plate and out of the guitar, since there is a hole in the spruce top as well as the bridge plate locator hole. You my friend are correct. I just wish I had better communication skills. It's obvious that I will never be a techinical manuel writer. If you go the the "Gibson Homecoming" you will see the manufacturing process and it will be clear. It's really not as complicated as I make it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PickitPaul Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 You explained it very well, I am glad to know the ball end is not resting on the top itself, but the dowel. But, this could be a problem too, because the top can still crack, right, since the dowel is now part of the top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 This is not the case. The hole is drilled thru the top and the bridge plate.Then when when the top is glued on the guitar the hole is filled with a wood dowel. The ball end of the strings in question are NOT resting on the top. They are resting on the dowel. The dowel was cut to short leaving a small bit of a cavity when it should be flush with the bridge plate. I'm not sure where you are getting your information but it is NOT correct. There is no danger of the top being damaged by this situation. The strings are in no danger of contacting the top or the bridge. Sorry, but I'm calling BS on this. The string ball end should not be sitting in a recess in the bridge plate. It should be sitting on the surface of the bridge plate. This is simply bad quality control, and should not happen. This whole methodology is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Sorry, but I'm calling BS on this. The string ball end should not be sitting in a recess in the bridge plate. It should be sitting on the surface of the bridge plate. This is simply bad quality control, and should not happen. This whole methodology is flawed. No one here is disputing that. You are exactly right. I'm just trying to tell the folks that your top in not on any danger because of this defect in the building process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PickitPaul Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Sorry, but I'm calling BS on this. The string ball end should not be sitting in a recess in the bridge plate. It should be sitting on the surface of the bridge plate. This is simply bad quality control, and should not happen. This whole methodology is flawed. And my ball end is sitting on top of a blop of glue in a recessed hole. I'm thinking it gives my guitar a "Signature Tone", that mellow string end resting on glue sound.... :o Gibson is probably reading this post, and thinking "Back in the day before this internet age, nobody stuck mirrors inside the guitar!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 You explained it very well, I am glad to know the ball end is not resting on the top itself, but the dowel. But, this could be a problem too, because the top can still crack, right, since the dowel is now part of the top? I believe the ball end might be in contact with the side of the bridge plate hole but the top is not in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I believe the ball end might be in contact with the side of the bridge plate hole but the top is not in question. Yes i am doing my home work on frets.com...and now understand your statement Hogeye..that the ball end will never come into contact with the top...because of the actual pin hole... but it will come into contact with the bridge..as you mention. I am now wondering if theses indentations I( have in my HB TV and others have mentioned and posted pics of in other threads..are holes filled with a dowel cut too short ?.... i am still confused because looking at bridge plates on frets.com..i see no other dowel..holes or similar ??..anyway..here is what im currently looking at http://www.frets.com...kedbridges.html a telling quote from this page is : This bridge plate is mahogany, a wood that's clearly too soft for the job: Notice how the string balls have pulled right up into the plate. Now, they're starting to bear directly on the bottom of the bridge, increasing the possibility that the bridge will bend and crack between the holes. An older instrument may have undergone hundreds of string changes, and the bridge plate may have become worn or chipped along the line of the bridge pin holes: Often enough this wear is enough to weaken the bridge plate significantly in this region, contributing to a bending force on the bridge, ultimately causing that familiar crack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bram99 Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 This is what I have on the LG-2.....okay I can see the argument about the dowel because that would explain the lack of top grain visible in the extra hole, but if the hole was drilled and filled after the bridge plate was attached, how did they cut the dowel below flush with the bridge plate? ....and if the string end ball is sitting on the dowel (which goes through the top to the bridge) instead of the bridge plate, how is that not the same as sitting on and pulling against the bridge.....I always thought the bridge plate was there to support and disburse string tension on the inside of a steel string guitar, unlike a classical where the tension is low enough that a glued bridge can support it from the outside of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichG Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Let's remember, the original thread started because Dan's guitar sounded funny. So if that's not the problem, what is? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bram99 Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 The sound of Dan's guitar was the symptom not the problem. The problem (potentially) is that the string appears to be unsupported by the bridge plate because of this extra hole. Many of us are trying to understand if that is in fact true. If the string is not supported by the bridge plate some of us will be paying to have our guitars repaired down the road.....that's a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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