blindboy's baffled

[blindboygrunt]

Heres a puzzler....

 

I had a look at a mates kids guitar ( he was showing me because I play ) and the action , as usual is a little high with not enough saddle to shave some off... Necks straight and when I ran a straight edge down the fretboard it just touches the top of the bridge... I was expecting it to fall under halfway showing a neck rest was necessary but no.... Guitar seems perfectly OK but a short saddle.

 

What might I be missing?

[MorrisrownSal]

Is there a truss rod? http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/GenSetup/TrussRods/TrussRodAdj/tradj.html

[duluthdan]

How is the action on the first couple of frets? Is this a newish guitar? The geometry of action is a function of the neck, the saddle, and the nut, I've always been told - if the neck seems ok, and the saddle is already low, I'd focus on the nut - it can be shaved down too, and or the slots can be deepened.

[zombywoof]

Is there a truss rod? http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/GenSetup/TrussRods/TrussRodAdj/tradj.html

 

 

The truss rod is used to adjust relief. It is not for adjusting action.

[MorrisrownSal]

The truss rod is used to adjust relief. It is not for adjusting action.

 

Agreed. But maybe there is too much relief? Or maybe I have it backwards? But too much bow...

[BigKahune]

How is the action on the first couple of frets? ... The geometry of action is a function of the neck, the saddle, and the nut, I've always been told - if the neck seems ok, and the saddle is already low, I'd focus on the nut - it can be shaved down too, and or the slots can be deepened.

 

+1

 

These are the rough in Gibson acoustic specs which most folks find a tad high, but it's something to go by. I would expect the first fret strings to be no higher than noted. It might be okay, but worth checking to be sure.

1st fret- treble side- 1/64"

1st fret- bass side- 2/64"

12th fret - treble side- 5/64"

12th fret- bass side- 7/64"

(Source - http://www2.gibson.com/Support/Tech-Tips/Basic-Guitar-Setup.aspx )

 

.

[blindboygrunt]

The nut 'seems' OK to me . not overly hard to play first position chords or anything. I'll measure it but I'll have to get a time machine to 1971 for imperial ruler :-)

 

Thanks for the input fellas

[Dave F]

The nut 'seems' OK to me . not overly hard to play first position chords or anything. I'll measure it but I'll have to get a time machine to 1971 for imperial ruler :-)

 

Thanks for the input fellas

 

Please don't step into that time machine, you're not certain where you'll land or if you can make it back.

Instead, buy one of these. I have one and love it.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/Special_tools_for:_Nuts_and_saddles/Nut_Slotting_Gauge.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=4630

[aerohead]

The nut 'seems' OK to me . not overly hard to play first position chords or anything. I'll measure it but I'll have to get a time machine to 1971 for imperial ruler :-)

 

Thanks for the input fellas

Lol pick me up a Norlin while you are there! On second thought just get the ruler! Lol!

[drathbun]

Press down on the low E string at the first and 12th frets (use a capo at the first unless you have a third hand free). Then check the clearance at the sixth fret between the bottom of the string and the top of the fret. You should be able to slip a business card in the gap. Of course, playing style and personal preferences rule over neck relief but this is a pretty standard setup. If you have NO gap at all, there is too much back bow.

[blindboygrunt]

Thanks guys....

All these tests haven't been done with a measure because I don't carry these figures of a set up around in my head but I'll go back and check next time.

 

This is the question that's bugging me though-

 

If the straight edge hits the top of the bridge then a neck set is definatley not necessary . this guitar is just badly set up . ??

Is that a true statement ?

 

Cheers

 

P.s. the neck seems to be OK ... Just slightly off straight

[Murph]

 

If the straight edge hits the top of the bridge then a neck set is definatley not necessary .

Is that a true statement ?

 

 

This would make sense to me, but I'm still learning.....

[duluthdan]

Here is a good read on the basic setup process and geometry. http://www.setitupbetter.com/Setup-Overview.php

I'm still thinking nut.

[RusRob]

I just finished repairing a guitar that had a very similar "problem". The action was a bit high, the neck had about the proper relief, a straight edge hit about 1/32 of an inch below the top of the bridge and the saddle was very low.

 

It turned out that someone had shaved the bridge, lowered the saddle and filed the frets down as low as you could get them.

 

The guitar needed a neck reset but who ever sold my client this guitar didn't want to fork over the $$$ to have it done. I told him he should contact the seller and get his money back but he bought it over a year ago and didn't think much about the slightly high action until a couple of months ago when he asked me to do a setup on it.

 

 

I ended up having to do a neck reset, complete re-fret, replace the bridge and put a new saddle on it. Not what my client wanted to hear but it had to be done to make it right. In the end he ended up with a really nice Martin D-18 that played like a dream but it cost him a lot for not having it checked out before laying down the green.

[duluthdan]

It turned out that someone had shaved the bridge,

How does someone go about shaving down a bridge? Removing it, sanding down and then reglueing? Remember this is a "kids" guitar - who would go through that kind of effort here?

[blindboygrunt]

I just finished repairing a guitar that had a very similar "problem". The action was a bit high, the neck had about the proper relief, a straight edge hit about 1/32 of an inch below the top of the bridge and the saddle was very low.

 

It turned out that someone had shaved the bridge, lowered the saddle and filed the frets down as low as you could get them.

 

The guitar needed a neck reset but who ever sold my client this guitar didn't want to fork over the $$$ to have it done. I told him he should contact the seller and get his money back but he bought it over a year ago and didn't think much about the slightly high action until a couple of months ago when he asked me to do a setup on it.

 

 

I ended up having to do a neck reset, complete re-fret, replace the bridge and put a new saddle on it. Not what my client wanted to hear but it had to be done to make it right. In the end he ended up with a really nice Martin D-18 that played like a dream but it cost him a lot for not having it checked out before laying down the green.

 

Cheers rob...

That's the sort of scenario I was wondering about. We all know the basics but that's an example of something that doesn't really fit in with the layman's 'how to buy a guitar' pamphlet.

 

How would that be spotted when initially looking at a guitar for sale?

Would the frets be ridiculously low??

 

I have always thought that , looking at a guitar , sighting down the fretboard to the bridge was the major task. Anything else can be put right fairly easy... but a neck reset is the thing we're all scared of.

 

 

(Dan... The kids guitar sparked a thought in my head about buying guitars... I would like to figure it out for him but my main reason for asking was to learn for future . I could easily have been the guy rob spoke about with the d17. I wouldn't worry about cracks, tuner issues, worn frets, etc etc but I would not want one that needed a neck set done. A bit like a timing belt in a car. Anything else breaks is fixable but that goes then you've got a scrap car.

[RusRob]

How does someone go about shaving down a bridge? Removing it, sanding down and then reglueing? Remember this is a "kids" guitar - who would go through that kind of effort here?

 

 

 

Actually shaving down the bridge is only to hide the fact that a guitar needs a neck reset. It doesn't do anything for playability. A bridge should be about 1/4" think, If a guitar needs a neck reset and you run a straight edge on the frets the straight edge will hit somewhere below the top of the bridge. By just shaving off the top of the bridge (without removing it) you can get a straight edge to just hit the top of the bridge like it is suppose to. If shaving a 1/16" off the bridge is not enough then you can file the frets down to pick up the rest and make it look like it doesn't need a neck reset. Then you would have to shave the saddle down to get the action close and to make it look like it is sitting correctly in the bridge. That also creates a problem where the saddle slot is not deep enough to hold the saddle very well.

 

 

@blindboygrunt

 

That's the sort of scenario I was wondering about. We all know the basics but that's an example of something that doesn't really fit in with the layman's 'how to buy a guitar' pamphlet.

 

How would that be spotted when initially looking at a guitar for sale?

Would the frets be ridiculously low??

 

I have always thought that , looking at a guitar , sighting down the fretboard to the bridge was the major task. Anything else can be put right fairly easy... but a neck reset is the thing we're all scared of

 

Yes you are correct about not fitting in the layman's "how to buy a guitar". Especially if the seller is less than honest and pulls a dirty trick like that.

 

There are some simple things that I do when looking at a guitar that I am interested in buying.

 

 

1. Play it... Listen for any buzzes or odd noises. I usually play an E chord and strum it pretty hard. Listen closely at the bridge and then the nut. You are listening for any odd noises. Play it hard and soft to make sure the strings are not buzzing on the frets.

 

2 Thump it... Use the tip of your middle finger and strike the guitar surface as if you were hitting a drum. Go over the spots where all the braces are and listen for any rattles. A slightly loose brace will have a little tic and a very loose brace will actually rattle. If you hear a rattle make sure it isn't a pickup or wiring. Also make sure the strap buttons are not loose which can sound like a broken brace. Bump the neck with the heel of your hand and listen for any rattles. A rattle in the neck could mean a loose or broken truss rod.

 

3. Closely inspect it...

 

Look at the frets. Move the strings up on the nut side to see if there is fret wear. Look at how high the frets are. Low frets indicate it has had a fret job done. Inspect the crowns of all the frets to see that they are round and not flat. Flat crowns means someone filed down the frets and didn't re-crown them. Flat frets can cause intonation problems. While you are looking at the frets make sure they are all seated firmly in the fretboard. Loose frets can be seen as a small gap between the fret and the fretboard. Also run your finger down both edges of the fretboard where the fret ends are. It should be smooth with no "snags" If the fret ends are sticking out then the guitar has not properly been humidified and has been dried out.

 

Look at the headstock. Look very closely for any cracks or splits especially around the machine heads. Look closely for any indication that they may have been swapped out. You will sometimes see a shadow where the old ones were. Check the sides of the headstock near the nut for any cracks or splits (also look for any separation of the fretboard from the neck).

 

Check the neck joint to see if there is any separation from the body (gaps or cracks). Some manufactures (Martin for one) can have a very small gap between the body and the neck but it would be very small. A gap there is not always a bad thing since the joint is what holds it together but you shouldn't see anything excessive.

 

 

Body... Check all around the body at the bindings making sure they are tight and no big cracks between the body and the binding. Some small checking on a used guitar is normal. Look at the wood next to the binding to make sure it hasn't taken any hits hard enough to cause cracking. Next look for any cracks in the sides, back and top. Old cracks will shoe up dark where any new cracks are difficult to spot so look carefully.

 

Hold the guitar flat so you can see reflections on the top. Look for any dips or humps around the bridge. A belly behind the bridge is normal but a dip in front of the bridge could be a sign of trouble. Look at the sound hole while you have the guitar on its side. Sight along the top and look for any dips or humps around the sound hole. It should be nice and flat but on some older guitars there may be a little warping which is normal. Look closely at the top between the sound hole and the neck for any cracks or splits. The neck should sit flat on the top of the guitar with no gaps.

 

String hight from the body. There should be about 1/2" between the strings and the guitar top between the bridge and the sound hole. (this goes to the topic of this thread). You should be able to just stick your finger between the strings and body. That is a good measure of the bridge hight and saddle hight. A rule of thumb is the saddle should be about 1/4" and the saddle should sit about 1/8" above the bridge although a lot of guitars will be different. Either way there should be "about 1/2" gap between the strings and body. I say "about" because all guitars are slightly different.

 

Bridge... Make sure there are no gaps between the body and the bridge. None at all... it should sit flat and firm to the body. Look for any signs of a replaced bridge by checking that there is no glue edge around the bridge or any "shadow" of where the old one was. Look closely for any cracks in the bridge around the pin holes and make sure the pins fit the holes (no gaps or loose pins). Check the pins for any damage. Look at the saddle and check to see it is sitting firmly in the slot and doesn't have any gaps. It should be about 1/8" above the bridge. Look for any string wear on the saddle also.

 

If you can, loosen all the strings and make sure the machine heads turn smoothly and the strings run smoothly through the nut. When you have the strings loose if you can get a mirror in the guitar have a look at the bridge plate where the ball ends of the string come through. Look for cracks or wear. On an old guitar you will probably see some wear but the ball ends should sit proud of the bridge plate. While you are there look inside the guitar for any other issues. Some guitars (Gibson's) can have some pretty sloppy glue drips and smears but look for any repairs or "odd" glue stains. Martins are easy to spot because they very rarely have any glue joints showing and are very clean inside.

 

Lastly check the intonation. Pluck each string and then pluck the harmonic at the 12 fret and then fret the string at the 12 fret. The tone should be the same for each position on each string.

 

 

That is sort of a "quick guide" for looking at a used guitar. There are a lot of other things that could be added but if you use this as a guide you should be pretty confident that the guitar has not been slicked over just to sell it.

 

 

 

Hope that helps,

 

Bob

[drathbun]

I just finished repairing a guitar that had a very similar "problem". The action was a bit high, the neck had about the proper relief, a straight edge hit about 1/32 of an inch below the top of the bridge and the saddle was very low.

 

It turned out that someone had shaved the bridge, lowered the saddle and filed the frets down as low as you could get them.

 

The guitar needed a neck reset but who ever sold my client this guitar didn't want to fork over the $$$ to have it done. I told him he should contact the seller and get his money back but he bought it over a year ago and didn't think much about the slightly high action until a couple of months ago when he asked me to do a setup on it.

 

 

I ended up having to do a neck reset, complete re-fret, replace the bridge and put a new saddle on it. Not what my client wanted to hear but it had to be done to make it right. In the end he ended up with a really nice Martin D-18 that played like a dream but it cost him a lot for not having it checked out before laying down the green.

 

I've heard this technique called the "poor man's neck reset". You have to deepen the saddle slot and ramp the strings in addition to shaving the bridge down. Makes the bridge very unstable and prone to splitting. I was considering this on my '68 Yamaha FG150 because the guitar really wasn't worth the cost of a neck reset. Then I went to guitar tech school for the summer and learned to do the neck reset and refret myself.