Searcy Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 My link Found this. A proper scientific scope analasys. Guess what... There is a measurable and definable difference and further, PIO's had the most "desirable" characteristics for audio/tone circuits. Interesting! But I found this. An even MORE properer, MORE scientificer analysis. It found that there was no real difference in materials. Since it supports my position I have decided that it is correct. :) My link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 But I found this. An even MORE properer, MORE scientificer analysis. It found that there was no real difference in materials. Since it supports my position I have decided that it is correct. :) My link My ears support my position and refute yours. No decision, they're correct. ;) On a serious note, IMHO, measuring actual behaviour of capasitors, using a known scientific instrument is a far more scientific approach than testing the frequency response of a pickup connected to a cap with a home made machine, made by the person doing the test, with no explanation of what they're actually measuring with it, or how. That assumes that frequency response of a pup is the governing factor in the difference being perceived. I see no reason to assume that. The second article is also argumentative and inflammatory which, to my mind, also devalues the findings of it's writer. Put simply, the first article lays out facts and then discusses the implications, the second attacks the opposing argument and then eludes to evidence to the contrary without actually providing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 The very problem I think is that there is no way to play a guitar twice or more often with exact reproducability. Even the best programmed roboter couldn't do so I think. There are measurements only to prove differences in a valid way, and any personal evaluation done with playing and listening will be more or less arbitrary when it goes around details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 The very problem I think is that there is no way to play a guitar twice or more often with exact reproducability. Even the best programmed roboter couldn't do so I think. There are measurements only to prove differences in a valid way, and any personal evaluation done with playing and listening will be more or less arbitrary when it goes around details. From the page I linked to. The sound clips were created as on our pickup test page, by filtering a stock sound clip using the curves you see below. This is MUCH more accurate for comparisons than strumming a guitar due to the variations in playing and player digestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 My ears support my position and refute yours. No decision, they're correct. ;) On a serious note, IMHO, measuring actual behaviour of capasitors, using a known scientific instrument is a far more scientific approach than testing the frequency response of a pickup connected to a cap with a home made machine, made by the person doing the test, with no explanation of what they're actually measuring with it, or how. That assumes that frequency response of a pup is the governing factor in the difference being perceived. I see no reason to assume that. The second article is also argumentative and inflammatory which, to my mind, also devalues the findings of it's writer. Put simply, the first article lays out facts and then discusses the implications, the second attacks the opposing argument and then eludes to evidence to the contrary without actually providing it. What evidence are you looking for? The sound clips are there and the frequency responses are mapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 What evidence are you looking for? The sound clips are there and the frequency responses are mapped. I wonder.... "The sound clips were created as on our pickup test page, by filtering a stock sound clip using the curves you see below. " I'm no engineer, but unless I am misreading their site it sounds to me like the sound clips are just them feeding their own frequency response data back into a pickup via filters. Couldn't there be more to this than just frequency response? I would prefer to hear a real guitar player with each one - even given the variations that can introduce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 From the page I linked to. The sound clips were created as on our pickup test page, by filtering a stock sound clip using the curves you see below. This is MUCH more accurate for comparisons than strumming a guitar due to the variations in playing and player digestion. In fact, it is. Despite of it, many people prefer fooling themselves or getting fooled instead of putting up with the truth, even if the latter is the best, simplest and cheapest the same time. It may depend on people thinking "more expensive must be better" that dodgy racketeers earn lots of money with selling snake oil or sprinkling holy water. In music and audio, it goes around capacitors and cables in most cases as I witnessed for more than three decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I wonder.... "The sound clips were created as on our pickup test page, by filtering a stock sound clip using the curves you see below. " I'm no engineer, but unless I am misreading their site it sounds to me like the sound clips are just them feeding their own frequency response data back into a pickup via filters. Couldn't there be more to this than just frequency response? I would prefer to hear a real guitar player with each one - even given the variations that can introduce. Any magnetic pickup or magnetic pickup with external capacitive, inductive, resisitive or complex loads is just a filter which affects amplitude-frequency response and phase-frequency response. There is nothing else left to describe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 ...Since it supports my position I have decided that it is correct. :) ........ One serious problem with the Myth Busters test was they had already decided what the outcome must be before they started their project. Hardly an unbiased, open-minded scientific approach to discover the 'truth'. They then published such details which shows their own firmly held beliefs to be correct. I cannot and will not trust any 'scientific research' which decides in advance what the end results must show - even if it supports my own viewpoint. I wonder....I'm no engineer, but...couldn't there be more to this than just frequency response? I would prefer to hear a real guitar player with each one - even given the variations that can introduce. I was wondering something along the same lines. Perhaps it is the dynamics 'introduced' into the signal by the individual's playing technique, coupled to the dynamic response of a particular instrument, which benefit from different types of capacitor? Could it be that it is the secondary- and tertiary-harmonic overtones (for instance) which are not being tested in the lab but are sometimes found to have been 'improved' in the Real World? It's not just the number of sensible, level-headed experienced people who have perceived the same change in tonal characteristics with some cap-swapped instruments. Some of these people have noticed change in some instruments but no change in others. Are these folks suffering from a sophisticated type of delusion whereby the brain allows itself to be fooled by certain instruments but not by others? P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender 4 Life Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Farnsie tossed a wounded rabbit into a wolfpack..... exit, stage left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I like rabbit... Perhaps we should take the example from those music shops which stuck up a list of songs which would automatically see you ejected from the premises should you attempt to play them? Discussions To Be Avoided At All Costs ! ! ! 1. Brazilian Fingerboards. 2. Aluminium Tailpieces. 3. PIO Caps 4. Vintage 'Mojo'. 5. Hot Hide Glue. 6. Non-Wire ABR-1. 7. Single-sheet Cut, Real Celluloid Inlays. 8. No-Tubing Truss-rod Assembly. 9. One-piece Bodies. 10. EMGs Oh, and if you discuss Top-Wrapping.........Fate Worse Than Death!.............. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Hell! I was about to address my issues with the retainer-wired ABR-1 conversion. Well, now, I won`t. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I like rabbit... Perhaps we should take the example from those music shops which stuck up a list of songs which would automatically see you ejected from the premises should you attempt to play them? Discussions To Be Avoided At All Costs ! ! ! 1. Brazilian Fingerboards. 2. Aluminium Tailpieces. 3. PIO Caps 4. Vintage 'Mojo'. 5. Hot Hide Glue. 6. Non-Wire ABR-1. 7. Single-sheet Cut, Real Celluloid Inlays. 8. No-Tubing Truss-rod Assembly. 9. One-piece Bodies. 10. EMGs Oh, and if you discuss Top-Wrapping.........Fate Worse Than Death!.............. P. You should add "The sonic superiority of Nitrocellulose lacquers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 You should add "The sonic superiority of Nitrocellulose lacquers". Yup. How about "ScatterWinding" as well?... P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Yup. How about "ScatterWinding" as well?... P. Yes!! Along with Formvor Vs Poly, the magical properties of sand cast alnico magnets and butyrate bobbins!! You know that cream colored ones have a better tooooooooone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I'm off to apologise to Farns for being party to his post becoming a "Pickguard;....On or Off?" thread....LOL! P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 All of these variables and I still play like a hack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan H Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I like rabbit... Perhaps we should take the example from those music shops which stuck up a list of songs which would automatically see you ejected from the premises should you attempt to play them? Discussions To Be Avoided At All Costs ! ! ! 1. Brazilian Fingerboards. 2. Aluminium Tailpieces. 3. PIO Caps 4. Vintage 'Mojo'. 5. Hot Hide Glue. 6. Non-Wire ABR-1. 7. Single-sheet Cut, Real Celluloid Inlays. 8. No-Tubing Truss-rod Assembly. 9. One-piece Bodies. 10. EMGs Oh, and if you discuss Top-Wrapping.........Fate Worse Than Death!.............. P. You forgot to add...Fight Club. -Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I like rabbit... Perhaps we should take the example from those music shops which stuck up a list of songs which would automatically see you ejected from the premises should you attempt to play them? Discussions To Be Avoided At All Costs ! ! ! 1. Brazilian Fingerboards. 2. Aluminium Tailpieces. 3. PIO Caps 4. Vintage 'Mojo'. 5. Hot Hide Glue. 6. Non-Wire ABR-1. 7. Single-sheet Cut, Real Celluloid Inlays. 8. No-Tubing Truss-rod Assembly. 9. One-piece Bodies. 10. EMGs Oh, and if you discuss Top-Wrapping.........Fate Worse Than Death!.............. P. Hell! I was about to address my issues with the retainer-wired ABR-1 conversion. Well, now, I won`t. Cheers... Bence Interestingly you wrote "Hell" instead of "Hello" You should add "The sonic superiority of Nitrocellulose lacquers". Yup. How about "ScatterWinding" as well?... P. There also are nickel-plated slotted head screws, and chrome-plated Phillips head screws for pickup height adjustment... hmmm... ... All of these variables and I still play like a hack... You took the words right out of my mouth - think I should concentrate on treating the strings right when trying to make them sound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I've re-read this very interesting discussion and....not sure I'm any the wiser. Technically I know nothing about capacitors except that the one on my Tele helps keep the treble when I turn down the volume. Think that's it. But you lost me on the technical stuff, e.g. This paragraph is also interesting.... Also, notice the very apparent non-linearities associated with the ceramics. Er, um, er... Any magnetic pickup or magnetic pickup with external capacitive, inductive, resisitive or complex loads is just a filter which affects amplitude-frequency response and phase-frequency response. There is nothing else left to describe. Arrgh! My LP is a 50s re-issue with P90s. It has the best-sounding passive vol/tone circuit I have ever heard in any guitar I've owned. It is inconceivable to me that the great tone and smooth audio taper of this circuit (as it is) could be improved in any way, but then I know nothing about it. However I'm not going to change anything. I think I have 'orange drop' caps - looking in the control cavity I see this: Thanks for a very interesting thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan H Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I think I have 'orange drop' caps - looking in the control cavity I see this: Nope, you have ceramic disc capacitors, like 90% of modern Gibsons (not counting RI's). Orange Drops look like this: I have nothing against ceramic disc caps; They came stock in my '64 Melody Maker and I love them in that guitar. -Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Ah - thankyou. Yes I have seen them but didn't know. Hmm. Should I get a bunch of these orange drops and oil-filled caps and try stuff? No, it sounds just great. Couldn't possibly get any better. Could it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krock Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Ah - thankyou. Yes I have seen them but didn't know. Hmm. Should I get a bunch of these orange drops and oil-filled caps and try stuff? No, it sounds just great. Couldn't possibly get any better. Could it? You said earlier its the "best-sounding passive vol/tone circuit I have ever heard in any guitar I've owned." If you like it the way it is then why change it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan H Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 You sais earlier its the "best-sounding passive vol/tone circuit I have ever heard in any guitar I've owned." If you like it the way it is then why change it? +1 Don't fix what isn't broken. -Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Hmm. Should I get a bunch of these orange drops and oil-filled caps and try stuff?No, it sounds just great. Couldn't possibly get any better. Could it? I don't know, jdgm. Only one way to find out if you really want to know... Do you have / can you operate (safely...lol!) a soldering iron? If so the swap will take roughly 5 of your Earth minutes. Don't like the results? Another 5 minutes. Total amount of time wasted? 10 mins (+ noodling time). Like the results?........ If we can work out a time which suits in the new year you could pop over and I'd force some Hog's Back T.E.A. down your throat whilst we play with all the associated hardware here. I'll pull the Grey Tigers from Honey and pop them in your own steed (on a temporary basis) so you can have a chance to hear whether or not it makes a difference. You said earlier its the "best-sounding passive vol/tone circuit I have ever heard in any guitar I've owned." .......If you like it the way it is then why change it? Because it might sound even better? As I said at the time I swapped mine out a year or so ago; I was incredibly sceptical (you have no idea how much of a sceptic I am) about noticing any discernable change but had to admit my scepticism was misplaced. But at the same time I have only swapped-out caps in one LP. The rest I'm happy with. Like jdgm with his gorgeous P-90 equipped Custom I can't imagine my R0 could possibly sound even better. But I don't know for sure... P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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