Could the epiphone sheraton II be as good as a Gibson ES 335?

[bobouz]

Epiphone produced amazing guitars in the past, and they should develop the "elitist" concept.

Epiphone had an extensive Elite/Elitist lineup from 2002 to 2004, but it methodically got pared back. Some think the Elitists provided competition that was too stiff for their Gibson counterparts, but my guess is they simply didn't make enough overall profit, given the cost of construction vs price point. By 2010, only the Elitist Casino remained.

 

It appears that we now may see occasional limited run releases, such as the recently announced Riviera and Texan, which would absolutely be a welcome trend.

[charlie brown]

Epiphone had an extensive Elite/Elitist lineup from 2002 to 2004, but it methodically got pared back. Some think the Elitists provided competition that was too stiff for their Gibson counterparts, but my guess is they simply didn't make enough overall profit, given the cost of construction vs price point. By 2010, only the Elitist Casino remained.

 

It appears that we now may see occasional limited run releases, such as the recently announced Riviera and Texan, which would absolutely be a welcome trend.

 

 

On that point, I recieved an e-mail back, from my dealer E.M. Shorts, regarding the newly

announced Riviera and Texan, and they ARE (for now) just for the Japanese Market! Their

Epiphone Rep did say, however, that since there appears to be a LOT of interest in those

particular models, they may decide to release them here, in the USA, and Europe, as well?

 

Time will tell, but I HOPE they do decide to do that!

 

CB

[Bernie69]

Bernie, in the future, do a lot of research before you put an offer like that on the table. The guitar you are describing is not a '60s Epiphone made by Gibson - but perfectly fits the specs of the first wave of Asian Epiphones made in the '70s in Japan. These are typically of poor quality and have very little resale value. The zero fret is a dead giveaway regarding it's origin.

 

You are right,

I'm not an epis expert and I think it's more difficult to trace these guitars and their origins than american produced guitars.

But really the sound of this one was amazing, may be because the wood qualities improved with time ?

Are you sure that the Japanese quality was so bad in the seventies?

Another friend owns a "pro Martin" dreadnought from these times, made in Japan, ( actually it's not made by MARTIN at all) and the sound and the manufacturing quality is excellent.According to what I have seen on the Internet , it's a sought after guitar, everybody

agrees on its quality.

 

Other exemples of good cheap Japanese ,guitars ?

[Jayyj]

A friend of mine has a jumbo Epiphone from the 70s that sounds really nice. There are much better guitars out there but for what he paid for it, great guitar. Japanese made Yamaha acoustics from the 70s always impress me in terms of sound quality for a relatively low cost, and Alvarez / Yairis from that era are lovely guitars.

 

In that era though Japanese manufacturers were typically building for the 'how cheap can you make this' market rather than 'how well can you make this'. As a teenager I had a Hondo Les Paul copy - ply body with a huge void between the arched top and main slab of the body, bolt on neck, pickups that turned out to be single coils taking up one side of the humbucker covers - every now and then I see one on Ebay touted as 'lawsuit era vintage Les Paul, they don't make them like this any more!', and shake my head...

[bobouz]

Are you sure that the Japanese quality was so bad in the seventies?

Japanese companies were making some very good guitars in the '70s, but the early acoustic Epiphones were not among them. Most had bolt on necks & laminate tops, and their build quality was noticeably inferior to many of their counterparts. Of course they did improve, but other brands such as Ibanez, Alverez, Aria, and Takamine generally were a significant cut above.

 

As for an inexpensive guitar having good tone, it certainly can and does happen. The only thing that really matters is whether or not you like the way it plays and feels.

 

But it terms of purchase price and the resale value of any instrument, it is best to be cautious and research carefully, to the point that you truly know what you're looking at. Fortunately, this has become so much easier in the age of the internet, but instruments still get misrepresented all the time - knowingly or unknowingly.

[zigzag]

As I've already posted a few times, I bought a used Dot, and after having the frets leveled and crowned, and replacing stock pickups (which actually sounded pretty good) with Lindy Fralin P92s, I am much happier with it than my 335. Although (IMO) 57 classics are Gibson's best humbuckers, I have to scoop the amp settings to get a tone I'm happy with.

 

 

 

And BTW, I want JLH's socks!

[filthypit]

M-m-m-m-m... make no mistake: a Sheraton and a Dot are two different guitars (BIG diff).

[AlanC]

If you look at things such as the fit of the neck tenon, the mating of the top and back to the spacers of the center block, or the application of finish, there is (most of the time!) a level of build quality to the Gibsons that Korean and Chinese Epis simply don't have. Likewise, it's easy to list Maple and Mahogany as materials used, but the Far Eastern stuff used on Epis is not identical to that used on US made guitars - the Mahogany in particular looks suspiciously different to Honduras Mahogany, and feels different to work with if you have to sand or finish it. They're small details but they add up, and they're not things you can easily correct in the way you can a muddy pickup or some cheap pots.

 

Epis are great guitars as they're intended, and can be made better still, but putting some Classic 57s in a Chinese Sheraton does not make it the same guitar as a Gibson 335, no matter if they share the same basic specs.

 

My personal suspicion with this is that there are some particularly great Epis out there, and many Gibsons that are decidedly ordinary. We're blown away by the Epis because they're so cheap for the quality, and we're disappointed with the Gibson because for the amount they cost, we expect magic and are left underwhelmed. Somehow we extrapolate that into the great Epi being better than the so-so Gibson when what we're actually experiencing is a difference in expectations, and forming an opinion that is based more on value for money than a fair, head to head comparison of the way the two play and sound. It's fine if many people are happy with their Epis: the Gibson is four or five times the price and maybe 15% better. But having set up hundreds of examples of the two brands as well as owning US, Japanese and Korean 335/330 style guitars it's clear in my mind that there is a real and tangible difference between the pro level guitars and the Korean / Chinese versions.

 

Couldnt have said it better myself. Totally agree.

[4Hayden]

I like my guitars stock and a Epi will never be as good as a Gibson

[bobouz]

I like my guitars stock and a Epi will never be as good as a Gibson

In general, a comment like this may be true, but in most cases it will not be true if the Epiphone in question is a model made by Terada in Japan.

 

These would include the Elite/Elitist series from '02 on, the USA-Series 1964 JLH Sheraton & 1965 Lennon Casino, and the 1964 McCartney Texan. The USA-Series had the Terada made body shipped to Gibson in Nashville for hardware & final assembly.

[charlie brown]

Construction wise, probably not! Sound wise, quite possibly.

 

"As Good As," is more dependent on which you'll actually PLAY!

If you get a Gibson as a "trophy," and use an Epi to play out,

then yeah, the Epi would be "as good as," in that sense. But

by materials, finish and construction, probably not. As stated

though, there are outstanding Epiphone guitars made, regardless

of country of origin. And some Gibson "Dogs" too. What it really

boils down to, IMHO, is which one you love the most, and will

actually PLAY the most. And, let's not forget the amp! At least

AS important, if not more so, to "tone" of any guitar!

 

CB

[bobouz]

In general, a comment like this may be true, but in most cases it will not be true if the Epiphone in question is a model made by Terada in Japan.

 

These would include the Elite/Elitist series from '02 on, the USA-Series 1964 JLH Sheraton & 1965 Lennon Casino, and the 1964 McCartney Texan. The USA-Series had the Terada made body shipped to Gibson in Nashville for hardware & final assembly.

Oh, forgot to mention Epiphones made by Gibson in Kalamazoo.

 

Sorry if I'm basically repeating myself in this thread, but lots of folks don't read back.

[StLucifer]

Here's my 2¢…got change for Loonie? I was looking for a nice guitar to buy back in 1985 or so. My buddy took me to Sudbury Ontario cuz they had nothing I wanted at the time here in North Bay Ontario…couldn't afford a $2500+ LP Standard at the time. I ended up buying this 1985 MIJ Epiphone Sheraton. It was pretty much the same as a Gibson ES 335 in my view…it had "Epiphone by Gibson" in mother of pearl written in the head stock…a little different than the current Sheraton II models. I loved that guitar so much. It had the best action I've ever I've seen on any guitar. Never did I have to do a truss-rod adjustment, or **** with the string height adjustments or intonation issues…a all around simply gorgeous instrument. I paid, back in '85, near $900 in total with nice HSC and an Ariel Hot-Watt  amp phones unit, which I also really miss for practicing in the wee hours. <br>    I'm sorry, but I'm babbling already…in my opinion, and having played numerous Gibson ES 335s's & Hagstrom Vikings & even Taylor's awesome T5 models, that Epiphone Sheraton was on the top of the pile easy. Bottom line, FINALLY, my love for oxycodone won over…sold the Sheraton & HSC to the local pawn shop guy for $300. Now he would absolutely never buy something unless he knew he'd double his money immediately…I assume he did, cuz he never even paused to offer me the $300. To get that same year of guitar back today, I'd be looking at probably $1500 US funds…$2000 Canadian with all the conversion fees and crap.<br>    I own 15 guitars now, Fender American Deluxe Tele &  Fender Am Del Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard, Gibson LP Jr Sp, some Gibson acoustics older than me…and one as old as my dad was. That Epiphone Sheraton was by far the best, or tied with the best of any guitar I've ever had. Japan has excellent workmanship, always has…many folks assume Taiwan & Japan to be pretty much the same place…meaning that the workman ship fro either country is "third world" You'd be wrong in that train wreck of thought I'm saying.<br>    Epiphone makes, and always has made some great instruments. Future Shop had an Epiphone AJ for less than $300 which was always in tune. They had an Gibson SG there that nearly broke your hand trying to plAy a damn B barre chord at the 7th fret…need some TLC by a luthier right from the factory…just sayin'…that Epi AJ was made with the exact same materials and the exact same Grover tuners, rosewood fretboard, rosewood bridge, etcetera, as a Gibson AJ from the U.S.A. I just couldn't believe how nice that Epi AJ was…should've bought that before Future Shop bailed out of North Bay. <br>    ONE MORE example of Epiphone's quality…I know of an Epiphone 12  string acoustic at the Hock Shop uptown here for $140…unreal how nice & playable & intoned the thing is. One guy suggests that these nice Epi<br>s may be nice, but they deteriorate quickly due to cheap materials used in the production. Well, this may be so on every other guitar that Epiphone produces, but certainly not that '85 Epiphone Sheraton I prit near gave away…I often wish I could kick my own butt for selling the thing. <br>    I'll shut the f#%$ up now. Thanks folks. Keep on pikin'& grinnin'. <br>                    P.S. And the answer to your question is, YES, an Epiphone Sheraton II, if it was made as well as my 1985 MIJ model Epiphone Sheraton, is AS GOOD or better than ANY Gibson Sheraton II…EASY & without a shadow of a doubt.

[charlie brown]

In some ways, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference, as so much of the "modern" music is played at such

incredible volume, and with lots of overdrive, or high gain distortion. Never mind, the amount of "processing

the sound goes through, live or recorded! So, the subtle differences, between Gibson's and Epi's (electronics

being equal) are totally lost! I've found, that the biggest differences, due to material quality, and construction,

are more easily noted, at low volume, and/or "acoustic" volume, where you can truly hear (IF you can still "hear"),

the natural sustain, and harmonics, that the "better" materials and construction tends to display.

 

 

CB

[Tim Jones]

I have a 2004 Sheraton II (no E on the pickguard) that I bought used at a local Guitar Center store. I was looking at the new 339 and Sheraton II's on the wall and each instrument had its own good and bad points. Most needed a good setup and I mentioned that to the tech. He then walked me over to the used wall and pulled down this beautiful black Sheraton II and handed it to me. The simple act of holding it indicated that it was a completely different creature than the others. The finish was unblemished and no buckle scratches on the back. I plugged in and the balanced sweetness of the stock pickups and the wonderful action sold the guitar immediately. I asked the tech about it and it turned out to be a unit that had been in stock and not purchased, but that all of the employees loved to play it, so technically wasn't "used" as it had never been sold. He'd done a simple bit of fret leveling the year before, but there it sat...

 

The moral of the story is that the gem versus dud mythos applies to every guitar on the wall - regardless of the brand or price.

 

I now play it almost daily.

[iankinzel]

U2's The Edge, Kings of Leon's Matthew Followill, Silversun Pickups' Brian Aubert, and Oasis's Noel Gallagher all have one thing in common (besides being a bunch of white dudes): they've all used MIK and/or MIC Epiphone Sheratons at one point or another. In my mind, that makes the Epiphone Sheraton vs Gibson ES335 question totally irrelevant. Regardless of whether it sounds like a 335 or not, the Epiphone Sheraton is clearly an excellent guitar in its own right, with its own niche and its own sound.

 

If you have to have the ES335 sound and you've got the money for it, get the ES335. If the Sheraton is all you can afford, or if that's the guitar that feels better in YOUR hands, then rock that thing and don't look back.

[jmendoza]

As everyone knows, if they make 10 identical guitars on a given day, there will be differences, and some will be more exceptional than the rest. It's stuff like the wood, which was once a living thing, and the human factor in building them. My 1989 MIK Sheraton is beatiful, but has a bit of a rubbery neck compared to others, although it plays well, it's action moves around with the seasons. It also has a set of PAFs we put in it, which really improved it's amplified sound. I still like it better than a Gibson DOT, or Epi DOT, and am partial to the feel of bound fingerboards with nibs, which has been absent for a long time on all the Epis, and now Gibsons as well. In that regard, the older Sheratons are my prefference, due to the nibs, but the newer ones do have better pick-ups.

 

You can change pick-ups easily, but it's real expensive to have the neck binding and frets re-done with nibs, so my vote is with the pre Y2K models of the Sheraton with nibs.

[Pete B]

If you sand the nitro off a Gibson and re-coat it with a decent finish it may be a good guitar

[bluscuba]

I own a 1992 USA epiphone riviera made at the Gibson Nashville factory so the same standard as a Gibson

and a 1996 Peerless Riviera which I upgraded with new tuners and pickups and bits of hardware. I'd say the peerless is now the better guitar after the upgrades, though there's a feel about the USA model that's special. The reason I like the peerless so much is the finish and the neck profile so if you find one that suits it's well worth upgrading a cheaper one. Valensi was using his peerless riviera on the recent shows rather than the terada made elitist ones he has, so it shows the quality of the Korean guitars. He could choose any guitar he wanted and does play gibsons as well.