stein Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 You might be right about tunes played in F I ain't aware of. There is lots of genres and types of music I haven't played. I certainly don't know "pre guitar" music all that well, and I haven't played Jazz as much as I sometimes lead on. Trust me, I could play F no problem. I never had any problems playing anything Blues in different keys. I would GLADLY play a weird key to hear a soloist jam a good solo. And no, there is NOT a good chance this guy knew about anything we are talking about. The guy I am talking about here was difficult to play with because he had not just a lack of knowledge, but his attitude toward it. I think we can all deal with a guy with lack of knowledge, it's the know-it-all attitude combined with the fact you know VERY LITTLE while you make it hard on others that others generally tire of quickly. That was this guy. He wasn't that good, he was OK, maybe COULD have been good. But frankly, wasn't worth the effort. I'm SURE you know guys like that. Let me paint a plainer picture: He's the guy who's LUCKY they let him play a guitar onstage, and a sound guy would do well to turn him down or off if he could. There ain't no horns or anything to have any reason for any weird key. Just a simple guitar/bass/drums and maybe an extra guitar player to back things up when needed. He wants F. Sure? F? Why not E? No, F. Can we all play in F? All good? OK, F then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 ... I change the tuning electronically but that drives me crazy because the pitch doesn't match what I see myself playing. ... I have the perfect pitch. I think this would be pure hell for me. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 damn the imperfection of this world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 I have the perfect pitch. I think this would be pure hell for me. - If you think that's bad, let me join your band and sing harmonies. You will contemplate suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayinLA Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 If your keyboard player is classically trained then he shouldn't have a problem with this. If he does then he's not as good as he thinks he is. I played jazz using a Fender Rhodes in my teens. I was asked to change the tuning several times. For me it was fun "mathematics" because I would think in terms of increasing by a certain interval (counts of half or whole steps). After a while it was pretty easy to do. These days I lost that ability, so I change the tuning electronically but that drives me crazy because the pitch doesn't match what I see myself playing. Maybe someday I'll be able to capture my old days, but at least I admit that I'm not as good as I used to be. It's not an ability thing. Its that we write alot of our songs with the keyboard and guitar for the melody and timing. He has ideas and starts playing stuff and I just can't sing at that key. With the piano alone it's easy because you can octave into bass and treble runs that I can work within. When I add guitar to the mix, I don't have that octave luxury. We are not a piano band. We are a guitar rock band with a piano accompany. So this causes tension between us, because Mike is such a theory nut that he will be like "just Steve Vai it" or just lydian minor (down 1.5 steps) and we can harmonize. But he is a mad scientist and just isn't content with playing in guitar friendly keys. F for example is great for my vioce, but I hate it cause every damn note has a sharp in the scale. So soloing is like doing a soduko puzzle. I suppose I am realizing that I have LSD and don't like to sing. I don't want to see a therapist so I am venting to complete strangers and grasping at straws that someone out there might understand that a "classically trained" composer doesn't understand that my vocal chords don't have tuning pegs, and that's all there is to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karloff Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 I've played in a couple bands that tuned down a half step to help with vocal range. Just that little bit does help. The keyboardist always had a pitch adjustment so it was no bigdeal. I don't understand why some people take such issue with it. Last band I was in when I told the other guitarist we're going to start tuning down a 1/2 step you would have thought I asked to sleep with his wife. When he quit crying I said ok mike, you can do all the singing then. It's no big deal. And it does help save your vocal chords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 It's not an ability thing. Its that we write alot of our songs with the keyboard and guitar for the melody and timing. He has ideas and starts playing stuff and I just can't sing at that key. With the piano alone it's easy because you can octave into bass and treble runs that I can work within. When I add guitar to the mix, I don't have that octave luxury. We are not a piano band. We are a guitar rock band with a piano accompany. So this causes tension between us, because Mike is such a theory nut that he will be like "just Steve Vai it" or just lydian minor (down 1.5 steps) and we can harmonize. But he is a mad scientist and just isn't content with playing in guitar friendly keys. F for example is great for my vioce, but I hate it cause every damn note has a sharp in the scale. So soloing is like doing a soduko puzzle. I suppose I am realizing that I have LSD and don't like to sing. I don't want to see a therapist so I am venting to complete strangers and grasping at straws that someone out there might understand that a "classically trained" composer doesn't understand that my vocal chords don't have tuning pegs, and that's all there is to it. There's an in-between here. There ALWAYS is. That's why "we" play in or change keys. For example, there might be some keys you aren't good at or have a hard time playing and singing in, but the same holds true for the keyboards. Really what I am suggesting, (even though I don't sing), is a half step on your voice isn't going to effect you much, nor is tuning your guitar a half step, so the keyboard player doesn't have to go through hoops (imagine then, playing in F). It's when he want's a key like A or C or G or something you truly CAN'T sing or play in, THEN it might be time to put up a fight and find a different key that works for BOTH of you. In other words, choose a key that EASY for both of you, not just easy for one of you. Holding on to that 1/2 step is likely going to hurt your music more than help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 ... F for example is great for my vioce, but I hate it cause every damn note has a sharp in the scale. So soloing is like doing a soduko puzzle. ... I suppose I am realizing that I have LSD and don't like to sing. I don't want to see a therapist so I am venting to complete strangers and grasping at straws that someone out there might understand that a "classically trained" composer doesn't understand that my vocal chords don't have tuning pegs, and that's all there is to it. The latter is the crucial point I think. Writing songs oneselves should easily take the vocal range of the lead vocalist into account. This has nothing to do with lead singer disease or whatever. It will take good intentions, for composing as well as for playing. Soloing in F is not a real problem I think. I'm sure you get it done - it's also just a transposing job. With a capo you may even use harmonics or "open" strings. I think your vocals are worth it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayinLA Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 The latter is the crucial point I think. Writing songs oneselves should easily take the vocal range of the lead vocalist into account. This has nothing to do with lead singer disease or whatever. It will take good intentions, for composing as well as for playing. Soloing in F is not a real problem I think. I'm sure you get it done - it's also just a transposing job. With a capo you may even use harmonics or "open" strings. I think your vocals are worth it! Thanks Brother!! Now I feel a lil better... That's the way I feel. A good groove can be made in any key. So my keyboard player (who is great at composing melody BTW) should understand that I am a human, and self-conscious about my vocal range, and help make good music that sounds good. Try singing lead to Satriani while playing the lead....that's what he thinks I can do. Just not happening.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Maybe we need a thread on singing and a 1/2 step. I don't sing, so take that for what it's worth. My personal experience, is "we" often would change keys for the singer, but it would be a more drastic change, like 1/2 or quarter octave. When we changed a 1/2 step, it was to make it easier for instrumentalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Maybe we need a thread on singing and a 1/2 step. I don't sing, so take that for what it's worth. My personal experience, is "we" often would change keys for the singer, but it would be a more drastic change, like 1/2 or quarter octave. When we changed a 1/2 step, it was to make it easier for instrumentalist. there is an absolute significant difference man. quick example - Pick up your nearest guitar and play say a simple rhythm with a barre D an the 5th fret and a barre A on the 5th fret just back and forwarding between the 2 and singing la la la la along with it, then slide down one fret and see if it seems like the vocal is anywhere near the same. as players we think its nothing but singing is very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karloff Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Reading through all the posts, Rct mentioned playing with a horn section. If tuning down a 1/2 step didn't suit or was a hassle for someone in the band like having horns or a harp player that didnt have any flat harmonicas then I wouldn't hesitate to just stay in a440. But a 1/2 step does help your vocal chords. Sure if in A440 there's been times I've just changed the key of the song rather then tune down. I don't see it as being a primadonna. You play the song in the key that the singer can handle. If you ask me the primaDonnas are the musicians that whine about changing keys or tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 there is an absolute significant difference man. quick example - Pick up your nearest guitar and play say a simple rhythm with a barre D an the 5th fret and a barre A on the 5th fret just back and forwarding between the 2 and singing la la la la along with it, then slide down one fret and see if it seems like the vocal is anywhere near the same. as players we think its nothing but singing is very different. Interesting...I was able to hit A, but not D. But I could hit D flat and D sharp. La la la..cough..laaaahhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Interesting...I was able to hit A, but not D. But I could hit D flat and D sharp. La la la..cough..laaaahhh. heh heh now make the D a Dm and sing and play the first line of Hotel California a few times (on a dark desert highway...) now slide down one fret... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 ... Try singing lead to Satriani while playing the lead....that's what he thinks I can do. Just not happening.. That's completely understood. I think that nobody can do it as good simultaneously as one can separately. In my creative quartet we are four quite good vocalists, but our bass player lacks self-confidence. The other guitarist and the drummer are that good at singing that we can make perfect choirs. However, no one of us can play lead and sing lead vocals same time. This is what I think keeps our bass player from singing. Playing the bass mostly means monophonic lines, and automatizing bass lines is a challenge. In a cover band I'm bass player and lead vocalist. Vocal and bass lines should be as authentic as possible. I have to say that bass line pitches and timing different from the vocal line call for lots of practicing. In another cover band I'm drummer and partly lead, partly backing vocalist. Interestingly singing on drums feels much easier than while playing a chord or melody instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I never mess around with a singer. It's like something else that's 99% mental . All players must adapt to the singer's desires. Our jazz instructor would start humming a tune, and the entire band had to quickly 1) determine the key without a reference point, and 2) make up a backing part on the fly as he was singing. It taught us more than I can state here, but it was part of his process that got us rated the best high school jazz band in the country. The first part was on me because I did (and still do) have perfect pitch (this is my only remaining talent unfortunately). He would also point to me and say something like "play Yankee Doodle Dandy in the key of G#." If I messed up I got sent home. That taught us to sing the tune in our head and then play it in real time, which is important for ad libbing solos. Bottom line is that the person who doesn't meet the singer needs IS the problem. I am confused by your comment about the F scale. It has only one flat and no sharps. Do you mean the F# scale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 ... I am confused by your comment about the F scale. It has only one flat and no sharps. Do you mean the F# scale? The enharmonic equivalent of F major has eleven sharps I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 heh heh now make the D a Dm and sing and play the first line of Hotel California a few times (on a dark desert highway...) now slide down one fret... Ok...now I think you are trying to administer some sort of online torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayinLA Posted February 6, 2016 Author Share Posted February 6, 2016 You are both correct. I meant to say F#, but because of the difference between the keyboard and playing 1/2 step down, it is F# for me, and that's fine, but it just feels wierd to play runs when I have 6 sharps or whatever to cover. Anyway, because I can hit the notes vocally, I am stuck with a tune I really like, playing F# on my git, while my keyboard player is in F, and regardless, again it's not about key sig, I am confessing my idiosyncracies as a frontman and how much goes with it, that the keys accompianing don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 If your keyboard player is classically trained then he shouldn't have a problem with this. If he does then he's not as good as he thinks he is. I'm not a keyboard player, but I know how it works, and taking a piece of music with a sharp or flat or two to one having five or six could be fairly challenging for many keyboard players. As you know, it is not as easy as moving up or down a fret or three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I'm not a keyboard player, but I know how it works, and taking a piece of music with a sharp or flat or two to one having five or six could be fairly challenging for many keyboard players. As you know, it is not as easy as moving up or down a fret or three. That's another good point. Guitar is literally moving up or down, but playing the same thing, and maybe paying attention more if you go up and down the neck. With other instruments, it's literally changing fingering and muscle memory. Harp players have it easy. I can wait a minute or two while they find the right one. Maybe suck on my E-cig. I just got a genius idea: Maybe I should take a lesson from the harp player, and just have 12 or 24 guitars all tuned differently. I'm going SHOPPING!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 You are both correct. I meant to say F#, but because of the difference between the keyboard and playing 1/2 step down, it is F# for me, and that's fine, but it just feels wierd to play runs when I have 6 sharps or whatever to cover. Anyway, because I can hit the notes vocally, I am stuck with a tune I really like, playing F# on my git, while my keyboard player is in F, and regardless, again it's not about key sig, I am confessing my idiosyncracies as a frontman and how much goes with it, that the keys accompianing don't understand. So, honest question: How hard would it be to sing that in G or E? (Standard tuning?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Adjusting a keyboard up or down is apparently relatively easy with modern keyboards, but in doing this, does a keyboard player need to be able to transpose on the fly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 All players must adapt to the singer's desires. Our jazz instructor would start humming a tune, and the entire band had to quickly 1) determine the key without a reference point, and 2) make up a backing part on the fly as he was singing. It taught us more than I can state here, but it was part of his process that got us rated the best high school jazz band in the country. The first part was on me because I did (and still do) have perfect pitch (this is my only remaining talent unfortunately). He would also point to me and say something like "play Yankee Doodle Dandy in the key of G#." If I messed up I got sent home. That taught us to sing the tune in our head and then play it in real time, which is important for ad libbing solos. Bottom line is that the person who doesn't meet the singer needs IS the problem. Wow. I was piano player in jazz band all three years because we had too many guitar players. We were All South Jersey. One of the guitar players in theory and sometimes sat in for jazz band had Perfect Pitch, as did our assistant teacher. Jazz band and theory, along with chorus which we also had to take in order to be in jazz band, were great experiences I would not trade for anything. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Adjusting a keyboard up or down is apparently relatively easy with modern keyboards... Exactly. A few presses of a button (unless you're playing an actual piano, of course ). ...but in doing this, does a keyboard player need to be able to transpose on the fly? All I know is, on keys, I prefer to play 12-bar blues in G. If you're playing in E, I'm going to move my G to your E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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