Wood identification thread - Mahogany

[Rabs]

I see a lot of people get bothered about the use of mahogany "alternatives".... The thing is that Genuine Mahogany (Mahogany from Cuba) is gone.. And the Honduran stuff is not far behind..

 

Taken from Wiki

Mahogany is a kind of wood—the straight-grained, reddish-brown timber of three tropical hardwood species of the genus Swietenia, indigenous to the Americas,[1] part of the pantropical chinaberry family, Meliaceae. The three species are:

 

Honduran or big-leaf mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla), with a range from Mexico to southern Amazonia in Brazil, the most widespread species of mahogany and the only true mahogany species commercially grown today.[1] Illegal logging of S. macrophylla, and its highly destructive environmental effects,[2] led to the species' placement in 2003 on Appendix II of Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES), the first time that a high-volume, high-value tree was listed on Appendix II.[3]

 

West Indian[4] or Cuban mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni), native to southern Florida and the Caribbean, formerly dominant in the mahogany trade, but not in widespread commercial use since World War II.[1]

 

Swietenia humilis, a small and often twisted mahogany tree limited to seasonally dry forests in Pacific Central America that is of limited commercial utility.[1] Some botanists believe that S. humilis is a mere variant of S. macrophylla.[1]

 

 

 

So with that in mind.. While im sure there are still some small old stocks out there of genuine mahogany (im sure some was used on a LP run not long ago).. There isn't much left we can use (if any) so these alternatives really need to be considered as all we have left to use if you want a mahogany(ish) guitar :) (same for jet black Ebony fretboards).. In fact I reckon they just use the word Genuine for Honduran mahogany which it isn't (if we are being picky here) and the Honduran stuff is endangered too... So get used to it :P

 

THE most important factor (I think) in why mahogany is used and favoured is a cross between its workability and its looks. From that point of view I feel that these alternatives are more than acceptable, I have used many of them myself and to work with they really are just like mahogany, looks vary as does with all wood, some looks just like it, some looks more plain (meranti), some looks nicer (utile).. I guess that the reason most people have a problem with it is that they think the guitar companies should be more up front about the wood species they use... But I guess they are worried that it will put people off..???

 

Heres some really great info I found.. Its a bit long but good stuff if you are interested..

 

This is the basics....

Hypothetical situation: So you’ve just stumbled across some sort of “mahogany” wood, and you’re wondering if you have the real deal. After all, there are currently over a half dozen types of mahogany listed on The Wood Database. Much like cedar, the “mahogany” label gets tossed around with relative liberality—and not always with regard to the botanical designation of the wood in question. Ultimately, the ambiguous term mahogany remains somewhat subjective. But regardless of where anyone happens to draw the line on what is and is not true mahogany, certain facts and scientific classifications of the trees remain constant, and a general consensus can at least be made on the objective facts surrounding these woods.

 

But before we sort everything out, it would be helpful to ask a needed question: why? Why bother trying to sort things out? If it looks like mahogany, what’s the difference anyhow? A lot, it turns out. Beyond simply being worth more in terms of dollars per board-foot, there are practical implications to using true mahogany. Listed below are the ideal characteristics (hopefully) found in the wood: chances are most non-mahoganies will lack at least one (or more) of these characteristics.

 

What makes mahogany so great

“Rosewood.” “Teak.” “Satinwood.” Each well-known wood has along with it a set of expectations. Mahogany is no different. From the top-notch mahogany of yesterday, one would expect to encounter the following characteristics of the wood:

 

•Excellent workability. Mahogany is known for its cooperative nature and easy sanding and machining, with a Goldilocks-esque balance of density thats just hard enough but not too hard. When the grain is straight and consistent, there’s not much that can go wrong.

•Excellent stability. As much as it’s known for its workability, mahogany is equally known for its superb dimensional stability. Flat pieces will remain flat. Joints and glue-ups will remain intact. In the midst of seasonal changes in humidity, mahogany exhibits minimal shrinkage and swelling.

•Decent rot resistance. Perhaps not to the same level as Teak or other exotic tropical timbers, but certainly respectable. Though younger plantation-grown trees aren’t quite as durable as the older wild-grown trees of centuries past.

•Beautiful grain. Mahogany can sometimes be rather plain and almost utilitarian, but on other pieces, it ascends to the heights of sophistication. What antique bombe chest would be complete without exquisite crotch mahogany veneer drawer fronts?

•Large, clear lumber. Mahogany trees get huge. They’re both tall and stout, yielding long, wide, knot and defect-free boards.

 

And heres the site.. It goes through the main examples of mahogany like woods with picture examples of expected grain

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/mahogany-mixups-the-lowdown/

 

Heres the first one

The Inner Circle: Swietenia

 

By even the strictest standards, woods in the Swietenia genus comprise what is sometimes known as “genuine mahogany.”

Cuban Mahogany (Swietenia mahogani)

 

This is the original mahogany. Historically, these huge trees yielded exceptional lumber, but over-harvesting and just plain wastefulness (logs as large as twelve inches in diameter were used as firewood) led to this species’ depletion. In 1946, Cuba banned all exporting of the wood due to over-harvesting and high demand; it has also been in scarce supply from other sources in the Caribbean as well. Today, the lumber has become so obscure that the term “genuine mahogany” now applies almost exclusively to its close relative, Honduran Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla). Small boards and pieces are intermittently available: these are usually from storm-damaged trees grown locally (i.e., within the United States).

 

Honduran Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla)

 

Following closely in Cuban Mahogany’s footsteps, Honduran Mahogany is from the same genus (Swietenia), and it’s closely related in nearly all characteristics. All species within the genus are listed on CITES appendix II, and nowadays a fair amount of this wood is grown on plantations. It’s sold under a variety of common names, including American Mahogany, Genuine Mahogany, Big-Leaf Mahogany, and Brazilian Mahogany. Despite the abundance of common names, they usually all refer to just one species—when in doubt, verify the scientific name: Swietenia macrophylla. It’s every bit a true mahogany as the original Cuban species that became commercially exhausted in the mid-20th century.

 

 

Identification: Swietenia species can be very hard to tell from one another, but they can usually be distinguished from other species listed as mahogany (see following species further on in this article). All Swietenia species will have marginal parenchyma when viewed on the endgrain (see 10x endgrain scan). What this means is that there will be rows of light brown cells at the border of every growth ring—somewhat mimicking the annual growth rings found in temperate ring-porous woods. While other lookalikes such as African Mahogany (Khaya spp.) will generally not have these marginal parenchyma bands (though the color of the wood itself may change from light to dark simulating growth rings as well, the tight parenchyma rows will usually be lacking). Presence of marginal parenchyma strongly suggests a Swietenia species, though in rare circumstances, Khaya species can also display these cells as well.

Honduran Mahogany (endgrain 10x)

 

In finished pieces: Another trick to tell Swietenia species from Khaya species, especially if you do not have access to the endgrain, is to look for ripple marks on a flatsawn surface of the wood. Basically, on many pieces of Swietenia-genus mahogany, the rays (small reddish brown slits) will collectively be arranged in neat little rows (called storied rays), which appear as minute little ripple marks that are seen clearest on flatsawn portions (see accompanying scan—you will more than likely have to view the full-size image to make out these small details). These ripple marks are sometimes (but not always) seen in Swietenia species (as well as Sapele—see further down this article), but almost never in the African Khaya species. An absence of ripple marks is ambiguous (could be either genera), while the presence of ripple marks strongly points to a Swietenia species.

Flatsawn Swietenia ripple marks (2x)

 

How not to tell them apart: By color or weight. Swietenia species of mahogany, depending on the growing conditions and age of the tree, can vary widely in color and density. It’s all over the map. Some can be darker red and with dark streaks, others can be much paler and lighter in weight. Just viewing the facegrain of a wood sample and using your gut instinct to differentiate the two is unreliable.

 

Mexican Mahogany: It should be noted that a third Swietenia species is sometimes encountered: Mexican Mahogany (Swietenia humilis). This tree is much smaller than the other two species listed above, and as a result, it usually yields lumber of poorer quality due to the inherent problems of smaller trees (that is, knots and irregular grain is usually present, as well as much smaller available lumber). But from a practical standpoint, wood from all Swietenia species should be evaluated objectively irrespective of the actual species. It is the author’s opinion that the primary reason that Cuban Mahogany has been held in such high regard is because the wood was originally collected from very large wild trees which yielded excellent lumber compared to today’s plantation grown mahogany—it’s all based on growing conditions and tree age, and all other things being equal, Swietenia species wood is virtually identical.

[Rabs]

I guess just to add to this..

 

Two of the most common alternatives used... (I LOVE Utile, easy to get and just as good as mahogany in my view)

 

The Periphery: Meliaceae

 

Along the outermost fringes of what most consider to be called mahogany, there are a handful of other genera and species that are technically related to mahogany: much like the African Mahogany species in the Khaya genus, this somewhat eclectic group of hardwoods are all members of the Meliaceae family.

 

Utile (Entandrophragma utile)

 

Similar to mahogany: Sometimes called Sipo, or even Sipo Mahogany, this wood has similar mechanical and working properties to genuine mahogany, and the overall appearance, while generally a bit darker in color, isnt too far off either.

 

Different from mahogany: Spotty availability coupled with its overall obscurity has probably kept this wood out of the limelight. It lacks the exceptional dimensional stability of genuine mahogany, though it is by no means an unstable wood

 

 

 

Sapele (Entandrophragma cylindricum)

 

Similar to mahogany: Very large trees yield clear quality lumber that resembles genuine mahogany in both appearance and mechanical properties.

 

Different from mahogany: Sapele is a star in its own right, and has its own unique characteristics. Its darker in color, heavier, and exhibits more varieties of figured grain (pommele, ribbon-stripe, etc.). Its interlocked grain also mean its a bit more challenging to work with than genuine mahogany.

 

 

Identifying Sapele and Utile: These two species are both in the Entandrophragma genus and are very closely related. They may be separated from Swietenia and Khaya mahogany on the basis of their endgrain. Both Sapele and Utile have banded parenchyma (visible as horizontal lines in the accompanying scan) that occur consistently throughout the woodnot just at the annual growth boundaries. Additionally, the two woods tend to be heavier and darker than Honduran or African mahoganies, and both have a pleasing cedar-like scent when being worked. Sapele can usually be separated from Utile on the flatsawn surface by checking for storied rays. Sapele will have ripple marks (formed by the storied rays) evident on the flatsawn surface, while Utile lacks this feature. If the woods are quartersawn, Sapele has narrower, tighter, and more uniform ribbon stripes, while Utiles are wider and more erratic.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Just don't call it mahogany unless it is. That's my view. There are, as you say, 3 species of mahogany and nothing else is mahogany.

 

If utile, sapele et al are good substitutes (and I'm sure that they are) then just name them as the wood species used.

[rct]

Just don't call it mahogany unless it is. That's my view. There are, as you say, 3 species of mahogany and nothing else is mahogany.

 

If utile, sapele et al are good substitutes (and I'm sure that they are) then just name them as the wood species used.

 

But...I can't sell you cheap wood for the price of mahogany unless I weasel a way to call it all "mahogany"! It's how America does business!

 

rct

[merciful-evans]

Well as Rabs notes Utile is also known as Sipo and Sipo Mahogany.

 

But regardless of what you call it, the woods can vary quite a bit.

 

On the Janka (hardness) scale Honduran Mahogany = 800 ibf whereas Santos Mahogany = 2.200 ibf

[IanHenry]

One point that I feel should be mentioned from a safety point, is that Mahogany dust is highly carcinogenic and you should always wear a dust mask when working with it.

 

 

Ian

[Mr. C.O. Jones]

One point that I feel should be mentioned from a safety point, is that Mahogany dust is highly carcinogenic and you should always wear a dust mask when working with it.

 

 

Ian

 

Wow with that and the toxicity of nitrocelulose it must be SUPA-healthy to work at Gibson!

[badbluesplayer]

Great info.

[Mr. C.O. Jones]

Oh and great info Rabs, thanks for that!

 

Does someone know what mahogany they use for the True Historic line and the CC models for example?

 

I mean the plastics are CORRECT on a molecular level, but what about the wood?

 

Do they use the same as on their USA models but closer to vintage spec weight?

[badbluesplayer]

Here's some stuff about identifying hardwoods. Particularly the endgrain identification stuff. From The Wood Database

 

General Info

Hardwood Anatomy

Identifying Rosewoods

Mahogany article that Rabs was talking about

 

There's more links in the articles.

[Rabs]

Ohh and just to add further.... Remember I said im sure I saw Sapele being used..

 

Heres an example.. Im pretty sure (not quite 100% but almost) that, that's Sapele... Its that ribboning... Very much says Sapele to me, Gibson list it as Mahogany...

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2016/USA/Les-Paul-Junior-Single-Coil-Limited.aspx

[capmaster]

Thank you very much, Rabs, for your excellent post.

 

Just don't call it mahogany unless it is. That's my view. There are, as you say, 3 species of mahogany and nothing else is mahogany.

 

If utile, sapele et al are good substitutes (and I'm sure that they are) then just name them as the wood species used.

It's still valid trade law here that only Swietenia mahagoni, Swietenia macrophylla and Swietenia humilis may be called mahogany. The denominations used in German, derived from Swietenia mahagoni, are Mahagoni or specifically Echtes Mahagoni meaning real mahogany. They are legally restricted to the use for the three Swietenia species.

 

During the 1970's and 1980's Asian Meliaceae timbers were often referred to as Nato or sometimes Nato-Mahagoni here. Anyway, although Henry Juskiewicz once named the timbers used for Epiphones nato, vendors and dealers meanwhile call them all mahogany here. Obviously nobody ever sued them for that!

 

 

Oh and great info Rabs, thanks for that!

 

Does someone know what mahogany they use for the True Historic line and the CC models for example?

 

I mean the plastics are CORRECT on a molecular level, but what about the wood?

 

Do they use the same as on their USA models but closer to vintage spec weight?

Hahaha! This is what I posted some moons ago on exactly that same point you mentioned. Perhaps we only lack the very understanding of the importance of TONE plastics.

 

 

Ohh and just to add further.... Remember I said im sure I saw Sapele being used..

 

Heres an example.. Im pretty sure (not quite 100% but almost) that, that's Sapele... Its that ribboning... Very much says Sapele to me, Gibson list it as Mahogany...

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2016/USA/Les-Paul-Junior-Single-Coil-Limited.aspx

Now you said something. You make me think the back veneer of my Epiphone 1960 Tribute Les Paul is Sapele. It shows ribbons just like these!

[stein]

Ohh and just to add further.... Remember I said im sure I saw Sapele being used..

 

Heres an example.. Im pretty sure (not quite 100% but almost) that, that's Sapele... Its that ribboning... Very much says Sapele to me, Gibson list it as Mahogany...

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2016/USA/Les-Paul-Junior-Single-Coil-Limited.aspx

I think thats a good question.

 

I remember, as far back as the 70's when I was a kid, seeing "Mahogany" that had this look (Grandpa was a finish carpenter), and also, as far back as the 80's, seeing guitars, and I THINK some Gibsons, that had this look too.

 

I happen to have a particular Larivee guitar that has the deep ribboning as this shows, but doesn't look QUITE like the Sapele that Martin was using on the -15's at the time. Martin listed the wood as Sapele, and the Larrivee listed it as Mahogany. I did a search a few years ago, and according to the serial number and the time of purchase, the Larivee I have is supposed to be hog. (I doubt they would lie, as there is listed a switch to using Sapele).

[Rabs]

I think thats a good question.

 

I remember, as far back as the 70's when I was a kid, seeing "Mahogany" that had this look (Grandpa was a finish carpenter), and also, as far back as the 80's, seeing guitars, and I THINK some Gibsons, that had this look too.

 

I happen to have a particular Larivee guitar that has the deep ribboning as this shows, but doesn't look QUITE like the Sapele that Martin was using on the -15's at the time. Martin listed the wood as Sapele, and the Larrivee listed it as Mahogany. I did a search a few years ago, and according to the serial number and the time of purchase, the Larivee I have is supposed to be hog. (I doubt they would lie, as there is listed a switch to using Sapele).

This is why I say im not 100% sure...

 

Wood identification (especially on a finished product) is HARD, even for the experts... While Sapele is one of the easier species to recognise because of that ribboning.. All wood has extreme examples of patterning (from plain to flame) and of hardness and colour....

 

However as said, the Cuban mahogany is extinct and the Honduran is an endangered species and the only other official species is the Mexican type which isn't used as they are too small.

 

So this means we are down to whatever stock piles are left of the Honduran... That's bound to run out soon (if it hasn't already).... So when I see that wood on a new Gibson I do have to question if its real mahogany..

 

In saying all of that, sure Gibson and the rest should be up front with what they are using BUT from a players point of view and from my point of view as a builder, Sapele and the other substitutes really are just as good to use so its nothing to worry about. In fact, real Mahogany isn't even that hard, so they can use a substitute and actually have a more stable guitar and a stronger neck.. So its really not a bad thing.

 

So for instance, Geniune Mahogany is about 800 on the janka scale, Maple is about 950, Utile is 1180..... So that's quite a bit more stable. Sapele is 1500...

[stein]

This is why I say im not 100% sure...

 

Wood identification (especially on a finished product) is HARD, even for the experts... While Sapele is one of the easier species to recognise because of that ribboning.. All wood has extreme examples of patterning (from plain to flame) and of hardness and colour....

 

However as said, the Cuban mahogany is extinct and the Honduran is an endangered species and the only other official species is the Mexican type which isn't used as they are too small.

 

So this means we are down to whatever stock piles are left of the Honduran... That's bound to run out soon (if it hasn't already).... So when I see that wood on a new Gibson I do have to question if its real mahogany..

 

In saying all of that, sure Gibson and the rest should be up front with what they are using BUT from a players point of view and from my point of view as a builder, Sapele and the other substitutes really are just as good to use so its nothing to worry about. In fact, real Mahogany isn't even that hard, so they can use a substitute and actually have a more stable guitar and a stronger neck.. So its really not a bad thing.

 

So for instance, Geniune Mahogany is about 800 on the janka scale, Maple is about 950, Utile is 1180..... So that's quite a bit more stable. Sapele is 1500...

Yup.

 

I think if we can separate the "value" associated with the name, and start focusing on what differences there are tonally we might get into a better place.

 

Just as an example, everyone knows "Brazilian Rosewood" is a hot item. It BECAME a hot item because it's the original recipe for say, a Martin D-28. Had it been a different wood or species, it might be fair to say the design of the guitar might be different, or the type itself might not have become a classic.

 

On the other extreme, it could be said that another type, or sub-species would make a BETTER sounding guitar, or where there are differences, a change in design or specs might result in a different, better sound.

 

Both examples above are objective and valid, but where it comes into a difference is some buy for the name and the prestige, and some buy because of taste or knowledge of what the different woods may or may not do.

 

So...what does that mean? If people are buying a guitar because it is "Mahogany" and just because it is called that, it might be fair to call substitutes that if what players want is just the name and/or the intention of the design. But if we as players are going to judge and evaluate, then it SHOULD be called what it is specifically so we can all learn and get an idea what sounds like what.

[Rabs]

 

So...what does that mean? If people are buying a guitar because it is "Mahogany" and just because it is called that, it might be fair to call substitutes that if what players want is just the name and/or the intention of the design. But if we as players are going to judge and evaluate, then it SHOULD be called what it is specifically so we can all learn and get an idea what sounds like what.

Yeah I can see that....

 

By calling it Mahogany it kind of brushes over the issue.. From most peoples view if it looks and sounds like mahogany then it is :) and is sort of acceptable from that view.... and means that the average sales person doesn't have to know anything about wood. Everyone knows what mahogany is, no one knows Utile.. Its like calling any brand of vacuum cleaner a hoover.... Like a generalised word for wood that just has the appearance of mahogany.

 

BUT as you say and the others on here.. Call it what it is and let us decide....

 

And I think that's what it means really... That people like us guitar nerds who care about this stuff have to get used to different woods being used than we have been used to for the last 60 years or so... Same for jet black ebony.... Theres no reason not to use ebony with streaks in it, its just as good from a design view... and what a waste not to use it...

[rct]

So...what does that mean? If people are buying a guitar because it is "Mahogany" and just because it is called that, it might be fair to call substitutes that if what players want is just the name and/or the intention of the design. But if we as players are going to judge and evaluate, then it SHOULD be called what it is specifically so we can all learn and get an idea what sounds like what.

 

A Gibson with a pair of 57s in it, at reasonable volumes, with a reasonably experienced guitar player playing it will pretty much sound the same from guitar to guitar, regardless of which species of mahogany was used.

 

An acoustic can only sound so acoustic, it doesn't sound any more acoustic-y. To me, a person should be describing what it is that is missing, and go from there. If you pick up an acoustic and it sounds like God handed it to you, I'm pretty sure it is about as good as one is going to sound, no matter what it is made of. Brazilian is just another guitar cult, there were plenty of dogs and duds, and plenty of people unhappy with how they were building D-28s, no matter what wood they were made of.

 

Acoustic players tend to obsess and Rain Man all over the woods and stuff. Practice. That way you can make any guitar, within reason, sound great.

 

rct