Tips for buying used and vintage acoustics...

[Dash_Starkiller]

When I mentioned Norlin models, I was thinking of 3 and basing it on having seen at least 2 really excellent examples of each. First, the Heritage - have played 3 that I consider outstanding (LOUD, good rosewood tone, decent construction). Second, the Dove, 2 of which I've played and found to be excellent (fine maple boom & chime, though the construction may have been prone to top issues over the years. Third, the J-200. I've played quite a few Norlin examples and have concluded that the sound and build quality were more or less on a par with lots from the 1960's. You have to get past that butt-ugly 70's bridge, get used to the idea that the tone is what I consider 'thin' in most cases, and expect that construction got a bit more care (smaller build lots and higher price) than more common models and, as I've come to do with all of 'em that are pre-Montana, evaluate each example pretty much on its own merits. Granted, some aren't so great, but I've played some real 'flea pounders' from the 1950's and 1960's as well😤

 

That '42 J-45 is the kind of thing that gives some of us great hope in skeptical times!

 

I'm not even joking when I say that I had a feeling those 3 would be mentioned. Aren't the Elvis Gibson reissues both a Dove and J200 with "70s" accoutrements?

[bobouz]

When I mentioned Norlin models, I was thinking of 3 and basing it on having seen at least 2 really excellent examples of each. First, the Heritage - have played 3 that I consider outstanding (LOUD, good rosewood tone, decent construction). Second, the Dove, 2 of which I've played and found to be excellent (fine maple boom & chime, though the construction may have been prone to top issues over the years.

I happened to have owned both an early '70s Heritage Custom and Dove. Both had a very pleasant tone, and played well. The Dove needed a neck reset & it eventually got traded off, but the Heritage stayed with me for a number of years.

 

As far as the Vintage moniker, I'd put the '70s Westerly Guilds in there, too. Love 'em!

[62burst]

I try not to use the "v" word- it carries a lot of baggage.

[Leonard McCoy]

Guitars from the mid-1920s to 1970 have the most collectible appeal; I consider them vintage. Guitars from before the mid-1920s are too primitive in design to be of collectible value; I consider them more antique guitars.

 

Guitars from the 1970s, while more than 40 years old now, have low collectible appeal because they were produced during a time when US guitar manufacturers were in dire straits. Those guitars are of substandard quality and choice of materials. In general guitars from 1970 onwards can be duplicated today, hence their low collectible appeal.

 

Vintage collectors value those guitars the most that cannot be duplicated today due to e.g. materials, modern crafting techniques (CNC) vs. all-hand-made and so on.

[Dash_Starkiller]

Guitars from the mid-1920s to 1970 have the most collectible appeal; I consider them vintage. Guitars from before the mid-1920s are too primitive in design to be of collectible value; I consider them more antique guitars.

 

Guitars from the 1970s, while more than 40 years old now, have low collectible appeal because they were produced during a time when US guitar manufacturers were in dire straits. Those guitars are of substandard quality and choice of materials. And guitars from 1970 onwards can be duplicated today, hence their low collectible appeal.

 

Vintage collectors value those guitars the most that cannot be duplicated today due to e.g. materials, modern crafting techniques (CNC) vs. all-hand-made.

 

So here's something I've always wondered, if you took a production guitar from, say, the 60s and put it next to a high end production guitar made right now, how would they compare? If you don't take aging into account. Take my '68 reissue J45 and compare it to it's historical counterpart, when it was first produced, which is the better build? Just stuff I tend to think about haha.

[Leonard McCoy]

So here's something I've always wondered, if you took a production guitar from, say, the 60s and put it next to a high end production guitar made right now, how would they compare? If you don't take aging into account. Take my '68 reissue J45 and compare it to it's historical counterpart, when it was first produced, which is the better build? Just stuff I tend to think about haha.

Compared to its vintage counterpart, a new guitar is likely always going to be the better build not taking materials and aging into account (if that's even possible). Modern equipment, such as computer-controlled cutters and routers and computer-based templating in general, allow for higher-precision and more consistent guitar building. And I'd like to believe luthiers have learned a whole new lot in the last decade, making today's guitars the best they can be. The material issue remains however.

 

All that is of no interest to collectors, though, because they do take the rarity of an item, its age, and used materials very much into account among other things.

[E-minor7]

So here's something I've always wondered, if you took a production guitar from, say, the 60s and put it next to a high end production guitar made right now, how would they compare? If you don't take aging into account. Take my '68 reissue J45 and compare it to it's historical counterpart, when it was first produced, which is the better build? Just stuff I tend to think about haha.

Pretty interesting - I tend to think the level is about the same. Actually including the heavy post-67'ers and the Norlin-era.

 

There might be a few unlucky ones here and there, an uneven neck-binding, a blop of unwanted-glue etc., but all in all the standard of craftsmanship is steady.

 

Roughly my thought is that contemporary Gibsons in 30-40-50-60 years time will stand more or less like the vintage guard does today.

Which means quite immaculate, yet with various traces of shifting weather, humidity, temperatures, treatments, , time. .

[PickitPaul]

I have a '91 Bozeman made SJ - that wasn't crafted with the computerized CNC like today. All hand made. Will these guitars before CNC be considered more like "vintage"

[QuestionMark]

Compared to its vintage counterpart, a new guitar is likely always going to be the better build not taking materials and aging into account (if that's even possible). Modern equipment, such as computer-controlled cutters and routers and computer-based templating in general, allow for higher-precision and more consistent guitar building. And I'd like to believe luthiers have learned a whole new lot in the last decade, making today's guitars the best they can be. The material issue remains however.

 

All that is of no interest to collectors, though, because they do take the rarity of an item, its age, and used materials very much into account among other things.

 

What's missing is this discussion is the factor that figures into any collectible item and that factor isn't necessary based on anything other than collectible demand in the collectible market-place. Collectible demand is sometimes just collectible momentum in a collectible market-place. If a particular guitar becomes a hot item to have or invest in, based on the dynamics of the collectible market-place, it's value goes up. If there is little demand, it's value goes down. If there is speculation a particular guitar will go up in value, its value will go up. Sometimes it is tied to something in particular, sometimes it can be whimsical. This is what the collectible vintage guitar market is all about, just as any collectible market or commodity for that matter is all about.

 

Then there is the utility vintage as well as new and used guitar market...which is based on what guitars players want to play. For various reasons. And, demand for that market of guitars, whether actually based on something or not drives prices.

 

My two cents.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

[Dash_Starkiller]

What's missing is this discussion is the factor that figures into any collectible item and that factor isn't necessary based on anything other than collectible demand in the collectible market-place. Collectible demand is sometimes just collectible momentum in a collectible market-place. If a particular guitar becomes a hot item to have or invest in, based on the dynamics of the collectible market-place, it's value goes up. If there is little demand, it's value goes down. If there is speculation a particular guitar will go up in value, its value will go up. Sometimes it is tied to something in particular, sometimes it can be whimsical. This is what the collectible vintage guitar market is all about, just as any collectible market or commodity for that matter is all about.

 

Then there is the utility vintage as well as new and used guitar market...which is based on guitars players want to play. For various reasons. And, demand for that market of guitars, whether actually based on something or not drives prices.

 

My two cents.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

 

That's a great point. Funny what drives demand. Look at vintage Kays and Silvertones. You know they would be no where if not for Jack White. Back to what you said about guitars players want to play, at what price point or what collectability level does a guitar become "unplayable"? If you buy a 10k vintage 50s J200 are you actually gonna play it often? Doubtful. But you can buy a 60s 45 and gig with it. Just seems funny to me these prices over 5k and who buys them.

[PickitPaul]

But you can buy a 60s 45 and gig with it. Just seems funny to me these prices over 5k and who buys them.

 

Probably Jack White

[Dash_Starkiller]

Probably Jack White

 

Hahaha you have a point there...

[OldCowboy]

I have a '91 Bozeman made SJ - that wasn't crafted with the computerized CNC like today. All hand made. Will these guitars before CNC be considered more like "vintage"

Interesting notion😒 My guess is that they will among some circles and not among others. If I were around by then, the inclination for me would be yes. However, this thread has illustrated that there are many considerations coming into making that kind of determination, so - ?

[Murph]

 

My two cents.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

 

Weird how your two cents is always worth a nickel.....

 

[scriv58]

when it comes to buying an old guitar, i really prefer to play it first. Just drove to Nashville last thursday and bought a 1957 gibson country western- a few minutes of playing and hearing the owner play it, plus being able to peruse the condition in-hand was the selling points...happy camper here!

Resale value is not an issue with me- i look long and hard before buying an old gibson, since my intention is to play it til i die.

[OldCowboy]

when it comes to buying an old guitar, i really prefer to play it first. Just drove to Nashville last thursday and bought a 1957 gibson country western- a few minutes of playing and hearing the owner play it, plus being able to peruse the condition in-hand was the selling points...happy camper here!

Resale value is not an issue with me- i look long and hard before buying an old gibson, since my intention is to play it til i die.

Yep. Some of us are in it for the music and some for the investment value. Although it's nice to know that - if you have to - you can get a good share if not all of your money back at sale, the circumstances of need don't make it pleasant when (if) that time comes.

[E-minor7]

Yep. Some of us are in it for the music, , ,

 

Yeah, that's the spirit. Though I can see why people who don't play much would be attracted to these creatures as well.

My approach is definitely musical and the quest for that sound-feel and look roots deep.

The magnificent thing about dealing with oldies is that you can throw yourself into some pretty wild experiments without feeling hazardous -

simply for the ever present possibility to pass the instrument further. And out there waiting in line is always a new overtaker just as excited as you.

.Just drove to Nashville last thursday and bought a 1957 gibson country western, , , - a few minutes of playing and hearing the owner play it, plus being able to peruse the condition in-hand was the selling points...happy camper here!

Resale value is not an issue with me- i look long and hard before buying an old gibson, since my intention is to play it til i die.

 

Congratulations. Such an incident calls for a clip.

 

lOVE at first sight ▲ bring it on, scriv58

[QuestionMark]

Weird how your two cents is always worth a nickel.....

 

 

Murph-thanks! I try to have my comments have value...

 

QM aka "Jazzman" Jeff

[bayoubengal1954]

Yep. Some of us are in it for the music and some for the investment value. Although it's nice to know that - if you have to - you can get a good share if not all of your money back at sale, the circumstances of need don't make it pleasant when (if) that time comes.

 

Yeah, this. Some of you may remember that I bought an ugly duckling '48 J-50 last year. After the buying price of $2750 and the work done I have a little over $3900 in the guitar. I could never get 4 Grand for it on resale, but I don't care because I am working journeyman musician and love to gig with it. So it's a win for me!