1968 Country Western with a J-50 pickguard

[Dan West]

I just recently purchased a Gibson Country Western with a serial # of 940093 which correct me if I'm wrong a 1968. It is square shouldered but has a J-50 style pickguard. Original to the guitar as well.  Wanting to know if this was a custom request on an order or if this just was a mistake.  It does have a #2 above the serial #. Any help is appreciated. 

[fortyearspickn]

The s/n confirms that year, based on Reverbs reference info.  I believe the '2'  indicates it was a 'Second' and had some minor imperfection.  Looks like it's in great shape. 

[j45nick]

It may well be the the "2" designation was because somebody put the wrong pickguard on it. That serial number appears to be clearly 1968.

I like it with the standard batwing guard like the one you have.

Congratulations, and welcome aboard.

I see it has the rosewood adj saddle. You can buy aftermarket tusq and bone adj saddles if you want to experiment with tone. You might also look for one of the original ceramic saddles as well.

These are basically drop-in swaps, so you aren't changing anything on the guitar. It's the same thing as experimenting with  bridge pin material, but the saddle changes can make a pronounced tonal difference. Em7 here has one of more of these guitars from the same period, and is a serious student of their tone and how to tweak it.

He will probably chime in soon.

In 1968, Gibson was churning out guitars. It may have been easier for it to get a 2 designation at final inspection than to send it back to the shop for the proper pickguard. Or, they may have been out of the proper pickguard at that point in time.

Either way, neither the 2 designation nor pickguard has much if any impact on value on a 50-year-old guitar. It looks to be in beautiful condition.

Edited December 10, 2020 by j45nick

[zombywoof]

Hell, I like those pickguards a whole lot better than the stock ones Gibson was putting on that model (and others).  If nothing else that kind of screwup only endears a guitar to me more.  

[slimt]

I own a burst 67 SJ with the same guard.   Not a second 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Didn't Gibson just attach whatever they had left over or lying around to guitars to save a $1.17 when models were changing specs. Hell I think they do that now.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Sgt. Pepper

[bobouz]

I like it better with the J-50ish pickguard, too.

Congrats & Enjoy!

[E-minor7]

5 hours ago, j45nick said:

Em7 here has one of more of these guitars from the same period, and is a serious student of their tone and how to tweak it.

Okay - I have the 1968 Southern Jumbo and it has the for that year conventional screwed down 3-point pick-guard.* Which also would count for the common 68/69 CWs. 

Regarding the original standard rosewood saddle, it's remarkable mellower than the also original standard ceramic version. I recommend to try and find a ceramic saddle and compare.                         They are rare'n'pricey, but worth it - and may even be reproduced somewhere out East. You 'll probably find a tusq version while searching - just get one of those too for the experience.                            But remember = they are nothing like the real deal. 

 

      * Btw. batwing is is much more suited name for the 3-point guard, which opposed to the softer version in Q looks completely like, , , , a  batwing 🦇 

[75 Hummingbird]

Hey Dan welcome .

I kinda smell a fish with that j 50 pick guard ......that style of thin large pick guard was used on j 50`s pre 1965 ...1965 into the late 60`s Gibson was applying a slightly smaller 3 point guard that was also quite a bit thicker than what you have there.

I feel the pick guard is not original to the guitar ,but is a mod made somewhere along the guitars journey .

She looks like a real beauty ,enjoy it .

[zombywoof]

50 minutes ago, 75 Hummingbird said:

Hey Dan welcome .

I kinda smell a fish with that j 50 pick guard ......that style of thin large pick guard was used on j 50`s pre 1965 ...1965 into the late 60`s Gibson was applying a slightly smaller 3 point guard that was also quite a bit thicker than what you have there.

I feel the pick guard is not original to the guitar ,but is a mod made somewhere along the guitars journey .

She looks like a real beauty ,enjoy it .

 

While there is always going to be a transition period, generally the first SJs to have the 3 point pickguard rolled out of Kalamazoo in 1963.  The following year the J45/50 started sporting those thick red swirly scratchplates.  So yeah, the style of the pickguard on the OPs guitar would date from 1963 or earlier.   Playing the "What If" game though, had Gibson stumbled upon a stash of these pickguards it is possible that they, as any company with an eye toward the bottom line, would have used them which could account for the "2".   While I am not all that up on my Kalamazoo Gibsons made this late in the game, based on the two  B45-12s I have owned, in the earlier-1960s Gibson was spraying lacquer onto the pickguards.  If they continued this practice into the later years of the decade it would be a quick way to determine whether Gibson attached that pickguard or not.

[cunningham26]

the headstock and square shoulders scream norlin to me, and they started using the thin pickguards as well on the early 70s models. this may be more like a '69-70 that got a trap inlay neck lying around or as others have speculated, some kind of oddball setup Gibson is notorious for. I'd want to see what the stamp says on the back brace, and definitely wonder whether it's single or double braced. 

either way if you like it, you like it. I swapped the adj RW bridge on my '68 j45 to this bone one from  philly luthier supply. drop in mod, cnc machined bone and really brought mine to life. 

 

[j45nick]

7 minutes ago, cunningham26 said:

the headstock and square shoulders scream norlin to me, and they started using the thin pickguards as well on the early 70s models. this may be more like a '69-70 that got a trap inlay neck lying around or as others have speculated, some kind of oddball setup Gibson is notorious for. I'd want to see what the stamp says on the back brace, and definitely wonder whether it's single or double braced. 

 

The serial number seems unambiguous. The SJ/CW went to square shoulder in 1963, as I recall.

Occam's razor should apply here.

[E-minor7]

23 minutes ago, cunningham26 said:

the headstock and square shoulders scream norlin to me,  , , , 

Don't hear that at all. The headstock is common square shouldered Gibson - and the square shouldered Gibsons are from 1960. 

62 when talking CWs. 

[slimt]

1 hour ago, cunningham26 said:

the headstock and square shoulders scream norlin to me, and they started using the thin pickguards as well on the early 70s models. this may be more like a '69-70 that got a trap inlay neck lying around or as others have speculated, some kind of oddball setup Gibson is notorious for. I'd want to see what the stamp says on the back brace, and definitely wonder whether it's single or double braced. 

either way if you like it, you like it. I swapped the adj RW bridge on my '68 j45 to this bone one from  philly luthier supply. drop in mod, cnc machined bone and really brought mine to life. 

 

Not Norlin era at all     

[Dan West]

The guitar is double x braced and the pickguard is original to it.

[E-minor7]

This is getting strange - could it be an old neck on a Norlin body ?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     How thick are the back braces ?

[zombywoof]

Based on the serial number and Double X bracing you would think the guitar would be a '71 or '72.  I believe though a  Norlin-era Gibson would not have an ADJ saddle bridge.   The plot sickens,

Edited December 11, 2020 by zombywoof

[slimt]

Date could be 70-71 as well .  Not volute but getting the new double x  .  who knows. 
 

 

[zombywoof]

It is my understanding that the tops on 1970s Gibsons were thinner than what they had been using.  I always assumed the blueprints called for this as a bulkier bracing would require a less stiff top.  I swear though I recall a story that Matt Umanov once told that the reason Gibson initially started going with heavier bracing as early as 1968 was that while getting ready to retire the slope shoulder J45 somebody checked the setting on the sander that thicknessed the tops and found it was set to produce thinner tops than what the specs called for.  Gibson's solution was to install heavier bracing  which got bulkier every year until by 1971 it had evolved into the Double X bracing.  If nothing else you would certainly think that the difference in top thickness would have been noticeable.  But this is Gibson we are talking about which by 1967 was fully under the control of bean counters who had run off the company  president and others in management who knew how to build guitars resulting in qualty control  not being what it once was.  Just what I recall hearing or reading.

Edited December 11, 2020 by zombywoof

[E-minor7]

2 hours ago, zombywoof said:

It is my understanding that the tops on 1970s Gibsons were thinner than what they had been using.  I always assumed the blueprints called for this as a bulkier bracing would require a less stiff top.  I swear though I recall a story that Matt Umanov once told that the reason Gibson initially started going with heavier bracing as early as 1968 was that while getting ready to retire the slope shoulder J45 somebody checked the setting on the sander that thicknessed the tops and found it was set to produce thinner tops than what the specs called for.  Gibson's solution was to install heavier bracing  which got bulkier every year until by 1971 it had evolved into the Double X bracing.  If nothing else you would certainly think that the difference in top thickness would have been noticeable.  But this is Gibson we are talking about which by 1967 was fully under the control of bean counters who had run off the company  president and others in management who knew how to build guitars resulting in qualty control  not being what it once was.  Just what I recall hearing or reading.

So now whenever late 60s and Norlin Gibsons come up, we're suddenly talking tanks with cardboard turrets !?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Think it's time to give my 68 SJ a tap-examination. 

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, E-minor7 said:

So now whenever late 60s and Norlin Gibsons come up, we're suddenly talking tanks with cardboard turrets !?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Think it's time to give my 68 SJ a tap-examination. 

 

 ECL Industries purchased a majority stake in CMI at the end of 1969.  The name was shortly thereafter changed to Norlin in honor of Hope Norton Stevens, president of ECL and Arnie Berlin, who became president of CMI in 1965 and his father Maurice who had founded the company.

No matter whether it was by design or a reaction to a screw up, going to larger braces was really a shame because the bracing Gibson came up with in 1955 was well thought out as it was light and added no mass to the guitar. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by zombywoof

[bobouz]

For the Country-Western model, Gruhn’s vol-2 lists the following:

1962 (late) - Square shoulder dread, 3-point pickguared.

1969 - Belly below bridge.

1970 - Non-adjustable saddle.

1971 - Double-X bracing, 25.5” scale, teardrop pickguard.

So this guitar seemingly breaks all the rules!

 

[j45nick]

6 minutes ago, bobouz said:

For the Country-Western model, Gruhn’s vol-2 lists the following:

1962 (late) - Square shoulder dread, 3-point pickguared.

1969 - Belly below bridge.

1970 - Non-adjustable saddle.

1971 - Double-X bracing, 25.5” scale, teardrop pickguard.

So this guitar seemingly breaks all the rules!

 

Yep. I give up on figuring it out.   A first-hand inspection might help, but it probably would not answer all the questions.

It has too many apparently-contradictory characteristics.

It brings the question of why it is a 2 even more into focus.

[j45nick]

10 hours ago, Dan West said:

The guitar is double x braced and the pickguard is original to it.

Dan, when you say it is double-X braced, what exactly are you describing?

In Gibson history, the double-X bracing is a very specific bracing pattern almost unique to a specific time period.

[bobouz]

Best guess here is that if this guitar is truly Double-X braced, it conforms to the serial number listing that puts it in the 1970-1972 category.  I would then speculate that it may have been made in late 1970, using up remaining ‘60s parts (bridge, pickguard, non-volute neck), but with the new Double-X bracing that becomes standard in Norlin’s major 1971 revamping of acoustic models.

We know that ‘69 & ‘70 were years of some mix & match transition at Gibson, and this guitar appears to be another example of that.