Which choice between these two J-200s?

[Zob Bimmerman]

Hey guys,

I’m new (but I don’t expect you to go easy on me, haha).

After many years, I’m hoping to finally own a J-200.

I’m doing  the usual back-and-forth with various online vendors (videos, interrogations, etc) and I think I’m down to two guitars.

Here are links to a picture of them each:

https://pasteboard.co/JG63CnO.png

https://pasteboard.co/JG64FVn.png

I’m wondering if, on-paper, one is likely be a better than the other? I realise that this is largely academic but, all the same, would anyone want to venture their opinion?

As a noob, any intel from actual players is gold to me!

Thank you in advance for your time,

Zob

[Sgt. Pepper]

No two guitars sound exactly the same not even the same model made one after the other on the production line. Chances are you can't play one or both.

[kidblast]

hard to know with out a test drive,, but maybe I'd go with the second one,   seems to be in better shape, at least the Pick Guard looks better.  plus I'm not a huge fan of the 2 rows of inlays near the pins.

[Jinder]

The first one is an earlier Historic Collection model, with the painted (and faded) pickguard, the second one is a later Standard model with the "flubber" pickguard, which has the design printed under a protective layer.

The Historic Collection guitars also feature a "four ribbon" bridge, (named after the number of MOP strips inlaid into it) which moves the bridge pins further away from the saddle by design. This is how the original SJ200s were made. The Standard guitars have two ribbons, and move the pins closer to the saddle, which increases break angle over the bridge a little. Having said that, the Historic Collection guitar in the pic you sent appears to have excellent bridge height and break angle, so that's not too much of a concern. 

If you can play them both, I would absolutely recommend that you just pick the one that sounds and plays the best in your hands. 

I've owned both-a 2003 Historic Collection SJ200 was my main stage guitar for eight years from '04-'12. I put over 1500 shows on that guitar and took it all over the world, along with writing and recording five albums with it. It was a stellar instrument, but eventually, after several refrets, two broken necks and an impending neck reset, I retired it and sold it via a dealer friend of mine to a guy in Hamburg who was looking for a modern SJ200 that had been "reliced". Mine certainly fitted that description after all the work it did for me!

I replaced it with an AJ, but never really got my head around the Rosewood as I'm a Maple player at heart (I now have a Maple AJ...another story...great guitar!!), And in 2016 I decided only an SJ200 would do. A friend of mine who runs a guitar shop was, then, a Gibson dealer and had five identical SJ200 Standards in stock, three 2015s and two 2016s. 

He suggested I come and hold a shootout, and promised me a killer deal as he needed to clear the backlog of stock...they were all good guitars, but one of the 2015 guitars leapt out like a lion taking down a gazelle. Turned out that the gazelle was my wallet! I got a ridiculous deal on the guitar and took it for barely £100 over trade price. It's still my main stage guitar to this day, I took out the stock Fishman Ellipse Aura pickup (I still hear the rattling buttons in my sleep!!) And fitted a Sunrise, my pickup of choice, and it's perfect. 

I would say that my 2015 Standard is more resonant and lively than my 2003 Historic Collection, but both were/are great guitars. SJ200s are notoriously variable from guitar to guitar, so trying them both would be ideal, but if that isn't possible and you're buying online, go for the one you either like the look of the most, or the one that's cheapest. It's unlikely that you'll be disappointed.

[62burst]

As much as I am all about string break angle  over the saddle, on maple guitars, especially one the size of the SJ 200, I don’t think it’s as important, and you might even want to have a lower break angle and go light on the string selection to bring out the sweetness in that hard wood. Unless you plan on doing some P. Townshend windmills on a regular basis. Fortunately, of the two you’ve linked to, the one with the one ribbon bridge would give the break angle most players would want to see. If buying long distance, what I would want to see would be a straight edge laid from the top of the fretboard to the bridge, to get an idea of the neck angle. The saddle seems to be compensated bone, and the other guitar’s looks like Tusq.

Seeing a case that is in good condition usually means that the guitar has not been living a hard life (or not kept in the case👎🏼), but the side opposite the handle looks a little funky, like maybe it’s been stored in a moist environment. 

After getting further info on the above items, number two would be the one I’d reach for first.

Jinder got to to try (let alone see) FIVE SJ-200s in a shop once? And I thought I was fortunate to see those five unicorns being ridden  by five mermaids. Side saddle, of course.

Edited December 22, 2020 by 62burst

[Zob Bimmerman]

At the risk of sounding sycophantic, I’m overawed by the sharing of knowledge and wisdom. Thank you all, especially Jinder and 62burst,  for taking the time to feedback in such detail and with such clarity. You’ve covered more than I’d ever have considered.

I’m a record producer and something of a purist when it comes to tone. I nearly always record acoustic guitars in an X-Y stereo mic configuration. I’ve never tried blending in a pickup signal as I’ve always found it  a bit plastic, therefore I’d seek to remove the pickup. Is this difficult or unwise? Jinder’s comment about rattling pickup paraphernalia is unsettling! 

[Paul14]

I like the style of the first one best. Other than that, there’s probably not a nickels worth of difference. If it were me, & I was unable to play the guitars, sight unseen I would go with numero 1.

[62burst]

31 minutes ago, Zob Bimmerman said:

I’m a record producer and something of a purist when it comes to tone. I nearly always record acoustic guitars in an X-Y stereo mic configuration. I’ve never tried blending in a pickup signal as I’ve always found it  a bit plastic, therefore I’d seek to remove the pickup. Is this difficult or unwise? Jinder’s comment about rattling pickup paraphernalia is unsettling! 

. . . And I  just like an acoustic guitar to be acoustic. But Gibson, in their infinite wisdom, likes to put pickup systems in many of their acoustics. To broaden the guitar’s versatility , or maybe it just helps them justify their pricing. 

It just feels right to get all of that stuff (the electronics, battery, and wiring) out of the guitar. However, keep in mind- removing the undersaddle transducer will slightly lower the action. . I believe I’ve read that the ribbon on LR Baggs Lyric UST has a thickness of .030”.. I’ve removed them without having to make any adjustment, but YMMV.

If the guitar’s to be played using a strap, then you would most likely want to get the end pin jack out of there, too. StewMac likely sells a solid tail pin with an oversized thickness to go in place of the jack.

Edited December 22, 2020 by 62burst

[Paul14]

1 hour ago, 62burst said:

. . . And I  just like an acoustic guitar to be acoustic. But Gibson, in their infinite wisdom, likes to put pickup systems in many of their acoustics. To broaden the guitar’s versatility , or maybe it just helps them justify their pricing. 

It just feels right to get all of that stuff (the electronics, battery, and wiring) out of the guitar. However, keep in mind- removing the undersaddle transducer will slightly lower the action. . I believe I’ve read that the ribbon on LR Baggs Lyric UST has a thickness of .030”.. I’ve removed them without having to make any adjustment, but YMMV.

If the guitar’s to be played using a strap, then you would most likely want to get the end pin jack out of there, too. StewMac likely sells a solid tail pin with an oversized thickness to go in place of the jack.

Removed all electronics from mine. Sold them all on eBay. I’ve bought several of these end pins from stewMack.

https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-hardware/endpins-and-bridge-pins/nojak-endpin.html

 

[Zob Bimmerman]

1 hour ago, 62burst said:

However, keep in mind- removing the undersaddle transducer will slightly lower the action

Ah, that’s interesting. I assumed that the PU system would have no affect on this. I obviously don’t understand the architecture well enough. Presumably then this is a job for a luthier. Any idea what I might expect to pay? I’m London-based.

4 hours ago, Jinder said:

the second one is a later Standard model with the "flubber" pickguard,

Flubber sounds baaad for tone... Or have I just kicked a hornet’s nest? 😅

3 hours ago, 62burst said:

If buying long distance, what I would want to see would be a straight edge laid from the top of the fretboard to the bridge, to get an idea of the neck angle.

Top tip. Yes, sadly they’re both a fairly far from me. Add into that the Tier 4 lockdown restrictions in London and it’s looking like I’ll have to take a punt (which frankly feels sacrilegious, given the cost!). Also, as a kid in the 90s, I once travelled alone to Nottingham with an envelope of cash to buy my first proper electric - a  Rickenbacker 330. Still own it and it’s magical. Can’t quite believe I did that. Kids, eh..!

[Paul14]

However, keep in mind- removing the undersaddle transducer will slightly lower the action

Ah, that’s interesting. I assumed that the PU system would have no affect on this. I obviously don’t understand the architecture well enough. Presumably then this is a job for a luthier. Any idea what I might expect to pay? I’m London-based.

I’ve removed 4 under saddle pickups without having to do anything. If anything it has improved the action ,,,,,,,slightly.

[zombywoof]

Gibson is out to please a modern audience so hence the seeming fascination with onboard electronics.  My wife, as example, has had pickups installed in both her 1960 J200 and 2016 Martin 12-28 .  

[Zob Bimmerman]

1 hour ago, Paul14 said:

I’ve removed 4 under saddle pickups without having to do anything. If anything it has improved the action ,,,,,,,slightly.

Sounds promising. I have an unholy knack of breaking things. 

 

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

My wife, as example, has had pickups installed in both her 1960 J200 and 2016 Martin 12-28 .  

Yikes. Though I accept that for live performers this is practical. I’ve heard some good things about K&K PUs, and Jinder has spoken highly of the Sunrise ones. 

[zombywoof]

11 minutes ago, Zob Bimmerman said:

Yikes. Though I accept that for live performers this is practical. I’ve heard some good things about K&K PUs, and Jinder has spoken highly of the Sunrise ones. 

 

My wife plays in two Worship bands.

Sunrise pickups are darn good.  Only pickups I liked better were the Dimarzio DP 139 soundhole pickups which were discontinued years ago.  Me, I am using the same Dearmond pickups I used in the 1960s.  But when I need to plug in I also have a 1956 Harmony H40 with a Gibson P13 mounted beneath the fingerboard extension.  As they had to remove the upper transverse brace to make room for it I do need to keep an eye on the top. 

Not sure about the new fangled J200s but the old ones like ours has tall finger braces around the soundhole rather than popsicle stick bracing. This can interfere with the mounting of some pickups.  I know she was not able to go with her first choice because it would have involved shaving at least one of the braces down.

[Zob Bimmerman]

I don’t think I’ve got the stomach for chopping into the bracing!

6 hours ago, Jinder said:

The first one is an earlier Historic Collection model, with the painted (and faded) pickguard, the second one is a later Standard model with the "flubber" pickguard, which has the design printed under a protective layer.

The headstock looks different too. The Standard seems to have those gold Grover machine heads I’m used to seeing, but the older Historic one has the kind you find on their electric guitars, eg the Les Pauls. What’s the practical difference, if any, between the two?

[Paul14]

I’ve removed 4 under saddle pickups without having to do anything. If anything it has improved the action ,,,,,,,slightly.

Sounds promising. I have an unholy knack of breaking things. 
 

if you’re uncomfortable doing it, I would take it to someone. It’s not a big job,  & doesn’t take a lot of time. I would think it would not cost all that much? You might want a good setup anyway.  Maybe you could pay for the removal by giving the pickup to your luthier? I usually get somewhere around  $85- $90 when I sell them. Just a thought.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Paul14

[Paul14]

If you wanted something nicer for the end pin you could also consider something like this . 
http://www.guitarsaddles.com/Plugs.asp

 

 

[Brucebubs]

Purely based on visuals .. I like the 1st one with the 4-bar insert bridge and keystone tuners, saddle height looks good too.

[62burst]

5 hours ago, Paul14 said:

I’ve removed 4 under saddle pickups without having to do anything. If anything it has improved the action ,,,,,,,slightly.

Define "improve". 🙂. Some players (bluegrassers, heavy hitters, etc.) might actually like to hold on to their string action height.  But it would not be surprising to see you saying that if anything, removing the UST has improved action- and it matches my experience, as well. It's when a neck has a slight twist, an underset neck, an already low action, the humidity takes a big drop, or the neck develops the dreaded 14 fret hump, that the drop in string height might cause a problem.

Edited December 22, 2020 by 62burst

[Paul14]

36 minutes ago, 62burst said:

Define "improve". 🙂. Some players (bluegrassers, heavy hitters, etc.) might actually like to hold on to their string action height.  But it would not be surprising to see you saying that if anything, removing the UST has improved action- and it matches my experience, as well. It's when a neck has a slight twist, an underset neck, an already low action, the humidity takes a big drop, or the neck develops the dreaded 14 fret hump, that the drop in string height might cause a problem.

I also said “ slightly “ removing the under saddle pickup has “very little” effect on anything, in my opinion.  

[62burst]

16 minutes ago, Paul14 said:

I also said “ slightly “ removing the under saddle pickup has “very little” effect on anything, in my opinion.  

✔️.

6 hours ago, Zob Bimmerman said:

Ah, that’s interesting. I assumed that the PU system would have no affect on this. I obviously don’t understand the architecture well enough.

Nothing majorly guitarchitectural about it- see if the seller(s) could i.d. the pickup model, & have a closer look at the manufacturer's site for some pics. It was the woven metallic ribbon that runs under the saddle that was being discussed here as possibly having an effect- with agreement that you might not even see a change in your setup. As a record producer and a bit of a tone purist, you might appreciate that there are many acoustic players that like to have nothing impeding the transfer of energy between the saddle and the bridge.

[Jinder]

I saw the second one you posted listed on Facebook Marketplace this afternoon...it's in Sturminster Newton, which is around 30mins drive from me! In normal circumstances I'd happily volunteer to drive over, try it out and report back, but irritatingly I'm currently unable to drive and am in hospital for half of every day for treatment, which is a huge inconvenience...are you based down this way?

In terms of machineheads, the Kluson style "Tulip" tuners on the first guitar are in accordance with the original SJ200 spec historically speaking, whereas the Grover Rotomatics on the second are modern (ie '70s onwards) machineheads which are generally heavier, tougher and very much "standard issue" for most modern Gibsons. I have both on various guitars, but generally tend to prefer the Grovers for my touring instruments due to their indestructibility. Neither is a bad machinehead though, and both have their merits...many prefer the Klusons for their lightness and original look.

Pickup wise, it's easy to remove any of them with a little care and diligence. The first guitar appears to have a Fishman or LR Baggs style undersaddle pickups, which are usually discreet and fairly effective for occasional work...the second guitar seems to have the Fishman Ellipse Aura pickup that my Standard was born with, based on the pic. Mine rattled like an angry snake when I played certain chords acoustically, but sounded beautiful plugged in. If you can find a non-rattler, they are a very good pickup. Nothing beats a Sunrise through a decent preamp, though, for me. I use a Boss AD10 pre and the combination is heavenly with a few EQ tweaks, a touch of compression, a smidgen of reverb and the acoustic resonance set to around 10am, all done on the pre. The Sunrise is passive too, so no batteries and unnecessary stuff hanging around in your guitar. I don't think I'll ever use a different pickup, except the Seymour Duncan MagMic (another excellent option!) that is still in my Dove, dating back to the days before I tried a Sunrise. 

Flubber...now that's an opinion divider! I have to 'fess up a little, I was the person who suggested to Gibson, when I had an endorsement deal with them in '07 and '08, that they print the pickup decals on a thin sheet of plastic, then cover it with a thicker protective material, so in part the Flubber debacle was my responsibility...I was tired of the wheat scroll decals on my pickguard wearing off, and wanted to offer up a solution. To my immense surprise, Gibson made one and sent me the prototype. I fitted it to my old '03 SJ200 and loved it. It was thinner than the final production 'guards and looked absolutely magnificent. It sounded no different with the Flubber guard than the painted guard, and I reported back glowingly. 

I think in '08 they went into regular production on the SJ200 and Hummingbird (not the Dove, however...I never did find out why) but were made of slightly thicker material and were prone to curling up at the points. They were often accused of damping the top a little and/or restricting tone, too. 

As a side-story, when I fitted my Sunrise to my current 2015 SJ200 Standard, which came Flubbered up from the factory, I had to modify the guard a little to accommodate the pickup. This sounds like total butchery but I'm a former touring guitar tech so wasn't going in completely green! I cut away a small section with a craft knife to fit the wing of the pickup level and in contact with the guitar's top rather than the pickguard...as I did so, I noticed the "Flubber" top layer was separating slightly from the printed base around where I had trimmed it. Curiosity naturally got the better of me, and I teased it up a little along the separation line. It slowly came entirely unstuck in my hand, leaving me clutching a thick layer of clear Flubber, whilst the thin (probably 0.6mm) printed plastic layer remained in place on the guitar.

I felt an odd sense of melancholy, having dismembered my one, tiny, largely insignificant contribution to guitar building history on my own guitar, but I'll be damned if it didn't instantly sound better. A few years on and the thin plastic base is still in place, all decals and details 100% intact and it serves its purpose as a pickguard beautifully...so you always have the option, if feeling brave, of scalping a Flubber guard as I did! All it takes is an X-Acto knife and some courage/idiocy.

Having examined both pictures again and again, along with reading the full listing on FB Marketplace for the second guitar, I am still torn between the two, although I am leaning towards the first one as it looks so clean and up-together and has seemingly good action and strong saddle height, which is worth its weight in gold. Plus it's older, and I always find age on timber is priceless in a top end guitar. My favourite era for buying secondhand is 1990-2005, young enough to avoid the potential structural repairs that '60s and earlier instruments can require, but still old enough to have matured and filled out nicely tonally. My Dove is a '95 and is just out of this world...so good. 25yrs of playing has taken any harshness or brittleness it may have once had and turned it into nectar. 

Please keep us posted on what you decide!

 

[Zob Bimmerman]

14 hours ago, Paul14 said:

If you wanted something nicer for the end pin you could also consider something like this . 

Great shout - thank you, Paul.

 

9 hours ago, 62burst said:

As a record producer and a bit of a tone purist, you might appreciate that there are many acoustic players that like to have nothing impeding the transfer of energy between the saddle and the bridge.

Absolutely. I like to remove any unnecessary variables. Acoustic recording is enough of a challenge without potentially unwanted dampening/rattling, no matter how negligible.

 

6 hours ago, Jinder said:

I saw the second one you posted listed on Facebook Marketplace this afternoon...it's in Sturminster Newton, which is around 30mins drive from me! In normal circumstances I'd happily volunteer to drive over, try it out and report back, but irritatingly I'm currently unable to drive and am in hospital for half of every day for treatment, which is a huge inconvenience...are you based down this way?

Masterful sleuthing, Jinder. Moreover how incredibly kind (and I send you good vibrations for a full recovery)! Yes the Standard is quite a way from fully locked-down London where I am. The Historic is in Wigan, even further. So I’m sadly looking at an online decision and then getting a train to pay and collect (just in case the vibe feels off once she’s in my hands).

 

6 hours ago, Jinder said:

I was the person who suggested to Gibson, when I had an endorsement deal with them in '07 and '08

Wow. That is seriously cool, man! So they took a great idea and kinda botched it? Good to know though that de-flubberisation is a thing, ha!

 

13 hours ago, Brucebubs said:

I like the 1st one with the 4-bar insert bridge and keystone tuners, saddle height looks good too.

This is where I’m leaning too, aesthetically... Adds sway to what Jinder and others are advising re. the build.

I’ve asked the vendors for a video of their guitar being strummed and picked (for general sound), of each string plucked open followed by at the 12th fret (for intonation), and for a straight edge to be laid along the neck (to check the angle). Hoping I’ve not come across as too demanding. I will report back with my findings!

[62burst]

2 hours ago, Zob Bimmerman said:

. . . So I’m sadly looking at an online decision and then getting a train to pay and collect (just in case the vibe feels off once she’s in my hands).

. . . 

I’ve asked the vendors for a video of their guitar being strummed and picked (for general sound), of each string plucked open followed by at the 12th fret (for intonation), and for a straight edge to be laid along the neck (to check the angle). Hoping I’ve not come across as too demanding. .

A bit confused, here- you’re looking to commit to the purchase online, pay & collect in person?   Is this due to a concern that it might sell before you get to try it out? Have you had phone conversations with the seller(s) yet? That’s usually the best way to get an idea of what you’re getting into, and with whom.

As far as the straight edge on the fret board-> bridge request, in normal times, that might be a bit much, but considering current situation and a remote decision, it might not be too much to ask. Photos taken at an angle (got any you can share?) can usually assess this, when included with pics of the saddle height. All’s most likely well in that department, but the sign of a guitar nerd is when one includes photos of something like this in the listing, or going as far as giving string action height measurements at the 12th fret.

Edited December 23, 2020 by 62burst

[Jinder]

3 hours ago, Zob Bimmerman said:

I’ve asked the vendors for a video of their guitar being strummed and picked (for general sound), of each string plucked open followed by at the 12th fret (for intonation), and for a straight edge to be laid along the neck (to check the angle). Hoping I’ve not come across as too demanding. I will report back with my findings!

Great stuff...that will give you a really good picture of everything that's going on with each. The Historic looks to have a really good neck angle judging by the saddle height in the pic, which (in my opinion) is one of the most important things to consider. Nobody wants to have to spring for a neck reset after a major guitar investment. I've made that mistake before! It's hard to get a handle on the neck angle of the Standard from the pic but I'm sure the seller will furnish you with pics for more evidence.

The Flubber thing is curious...I don't know why they went for such a thick coating for the production version of the guards. The prototype I was sent was thinner and a better design in my opinion. Not that the production guards are *bad*, just a bit of a missed opportunity. Only my take on it, though!

Please keep us posted, I'm very interested to see which one you pick!