New Build Day.. Spalted London Plane DC

[fortyearspickn]

I think  someone who is lucky enough to get a guitar as beautiful as these -  would treasure them even more if they had some of the "Work In Process" photos.  To see how beautiful the raw wood was, the pieces making up the neck, the attachment to the body.   Like having an ultrasound of your baby at 3 months, 6 months, etc.     Not something that rolled down an assembly line built by minimum wage workers who do not even know how to tune a guitar.   Thanks for the updates.  Work on it when you know you'll enjoy it !

[duane v]

Looking forward to the completion on this bad boy.

[Rabs]

1 hour ago, fortyearspickn said:

I think  someone who is lucky enough to get a guitar as beautiful as these -  would treasure them even more if they had some of the "Work In Process" photos.  To see how beautiful the raw wood was, the pieces making up the neck, the attachment to the body.   Like having an ultrasound of your baby at 3 months, 6 months, etc.     Not something that rolled down an assembly line built by minimum wage workers who do not even know how to tune a guitar.   Thanks for the updates.  Work on it when you know you'll enjoy it !

You know.. When I started this over a decade ago I thought the same thing.. Who wouldnt want a hand crafted guitar complete with a work diary on exactly how it is made at a decent price (never sold one for more than £1200 and most were more around the £700 mark)..  But in all honesty it seems to make very little difference when it comes to selling these. 

When it comes to being a single person working on making these you are never really going to be able to sell it for the actual time and effort that goes in to making them, let alone when something or many things go wrong..  I wouldnt care about that so much if I could sell them easily as I knew it was never about getting rich but just earning enough to live on. BUT I have been to four guitars shows in my time. Only sold one guitar at a show and got a custom order out of another.  I remember bumping in to the guy that runs Crimson Guitars who are fairly big, even he didnt sell any guitars at the show. 

Also now we are in the days of Harley Benton type guitars and they are EVERYWHERE.. Every guitar shop does their own brand now, Amazon have them coming out the wazooo  and the worst part about all of that (well for people like me) is that these days a £150 guitar can actually be pretty good.  Even Rob Chapman who has a massive presence has trouble selling his guitars...

Had I done this out of school and started a business, I think I would have done really well. But it seems I missed that boat.

Still in saying that, I dont regret it.. I have loved doing this and still do. But now its just going to be for me and my friends I guess. Theres a guy who took over for me at the workshop. Hes having a really tough time of things and is a guitarist. Id love to make one for him as a surprise gift (which I may actually do).

When it comes to their gear it really does seem as if most of us are VERY conservative. We like our 50s designed stuff and the word "vintage" still holds a lot of sway. Strangely most acoustic and bass players seem way less bothered about the name on the headstock. We are a bit of a weird bunch I think  🙂 

[Rabs]

1 hour ago, duane v said:

Looking forward to the completion on this bad boy.

Me too...  I have a 57 Classic and a SD Phat cat (P94), stainless frets and a really nice Schaller bridge for this build.. Even though in saying that I think when I did the neck joint I automatically did an angle on the tenon for a TOM 😄   So we will see how it fits when I come to glue the neck.

One of these

 

['Scales]

Great to hear you are feeling well and enthused to start building again Rabs! Hope it comes together as you envision it 🤘

[Rabs]

1 hour ago, 'Scales said:

Great to hear you are feeling well and enthused to start building again Rabs! Hope it comes together as you envision it 🤘

Cheers.. In this case that wood is so nice it would have been a crime to give up on it..  I may do some more tomorrow if I get the chance.

[RBSinTo]

Rabs,

I am enjoying your posts on this project, and I have a few questions, but please forgive me if they have already been asked and answered.

Have you ever built an acoustic guitar?

Is this extraordinarily beautiful London Spalted Plane wood suitable as a tonewood for some or all of an acoustic soundbox?

RBSinTo

[Rabs]

10 minutes ago, RBSinTo said:

Rabs,

I am enjoying your posts on this project, and I have a few questions, but please forgive me if they have already been asked and answered.

Have you ever built an acoustic guitar?

Is this extraordinarily beautiful London Spalted Plane wood suitable as a tonewood for some or all of an acoustic soundbox?

RBSinTo

Cheers.. And yes ask what you want.

Nope, never built an acoustic. Theres a whole load of other skills involved with that which I dont have the tools for, like bending the wood (which is done with steam and special bending tool). Then theres all the bracing.. I guess I could if I really tried but I like my electrics too much (and its much easier).

This much spalting on wood. No I would not use it, certainly not as a sound board. Its quite soft and I have had to be really careful how I cut it for it not to break apart. Actually I had another london plane build with a spalted london plane top. When I came to do the binding I had to do the bit where the body and neck meet by hand and took a chisel to it and the wood just totally broke apart in that area..

I have sold London Plane to an acoustic maker.. Here some pics of what he made with the sides and back I sold him.

Original back and sides I sold him

#

[RBSinTo]

Rabs,

I am unfamiliar with Plane wood, and didn't know it is very soft.

As for the guitar the acoustic maker built, it is certainly unique.

 Did he use a different species of wood for the soundboard?

More important, was he happy with the quality of  the guitar's sound?

RBSinTo

 

 

Edited September 13 by RBSinTo

[Rabs]

2 minutes ago, RBSinTo said:

Rabs,

I am unfamiliar with Plane wood, and didn't know it is very soft.

As for the guitar the acoustic maker built, it is certainly unique.

 Did he use a different species of wood for the soundboard?

More important, was he happy with the quality of  the guitar's sound?

RBSinTo

 

 

Well it gets complicated as we use some different names for woods over here than you do over there..

Something like.. What we call London Plane I think you call Sycamore and what we call Sycamore you call Maple. Something along those lines..

Well, standard Plane like what was used for the acoustic above is a good strength. Stronger than Mahogany but not  as strong as Maple so actually a nice middle ground... But the super spalted stuff like I am using is a bit soft as some of it is basically rot. It wont rot any further but you have to be really careful when cutting it and once its sealed and finished it will be fine.

He used Spruce for the top and yes he did like it.. If you are on instagram I can post a video he made playing it,

[RBSinTo]

Rabs,

Thanks for the interesting facts on the different names for woods depending on your location.

I guess George Bernard Shaw was correct when he said " Britain and America are two countries separated by a common language."

As for the video, I appreciate the offer, but I'm not on Instagram, so I'll just take your word for it.

RBSinTo

[Rabs]

I wasnt going to post this but what the hell.

So today I went to put the truss rod channel in this new neck and...........  the router bit slipped down and made a 20mm deep channel (instead of 9)...  And the neck is only 22mm thick...  Soooooooooo

This build is testing me. New neck needed again.. Luckily I do have some more of this walnut and plane left over from the last lot of wood I cut up so at least I dont need to buy any more...

Arrrhhhhhgggg!!! Never had an issue with this particular part of a build before but have had the router bit slip a few times. As soon as I saw it I knew exactly what had happened and why. Am booked in for a few hours tomorrow to get that done... More soon I guess 

[Dub-T-123]

My first trim router was a piece of junk and the base would slip while you’re cutting and it would plunge down to a random depth

 

Is the cut going to be seen after the neck is shaped? If not I’d route the whole thing to an even depth, rip a piece to tightly fill the gap, glue it in, and route the channel again 

[fortyearspickn]

Rabs,  the economics of this, as you described it, touches home.  I use to 'make knives', and it was not even close to a break even proposition.  In fact, just purchased the blade and attacked 'scales' or the 2 slabs of wood, horn, etc on both sides of the handle.  Sounds easy - but it isn't. Glue, possible soldering, bolsters, pins and rough shaping down to fine sanding and sealing.  As with your projects - a key part is selecting a good looking and super sturdy piece of wood. Of course, you had to also start with a good blade, but that's a different story.    I had people who saw my finished products enquire about having one or two made for them. Their frame of reference was $20 knives made in Pakistan.  Needless to say I didn't get any interest.   

[RBSinTo]

45 minutes ago, fortyearspickn said:

Rabs,  the economics of this, as you described it, touches home.  I use to 'make knives', and it was not even close to a break even proposition.  In fact, just purchased the blade and attacked 'scales' or the 2 slabs of wood, horn, etc on both sides of the handle.  Sounds easy - but it isn't. Glue, possible soldering, bolsters, pins and rough shaping down to fine sanding and sealing.  As with your projects - a key part is selecting a good looking and super sturdy piece of wood. Of course, you had to also start with a good blade, but that's a different story.    I had people who saw my finished products enquire about having one or two made for them. Their frame of reference was $20 knives made in Pakistan.  Needless to say I didn't get any interest.   

fyp.,

I understand completely your value for work done problem .

However, in my case, while I'm not necessarily creating things from scratch, whenever I do any sorts of repair work (hockey skate boots, hockey equipment, baseball gloves, guitars) I never charge except in rare cases for certain commercial supplies.

My reasoning is that the satisfaction I get from the problem solving and working with my hands seems to be compensation enough.

RBSinTo

[Rabs]

6 hours ago, Dub-T-123 said:

My first trim router was a piece of junk and the base would slip while you’re cutting and it would plunge down to a random depth

 

Is the cut going to be seen after the neck is shaped? If not I’d route the whole thing to an even depth, rip a piece to tightly fill the gap, glue it in, and route the channel again 

Yes, that was the issue.. The thickness without the fretboard was about 22mm..  So it only leaves 2mm for shaping..  But when the fretboard is added the thickness will be more like 28mm... So yeah, 26mm thick neck would be too much.. I could however go all the way through the neck and add a whole new piece to the middle.. Maybe I will do that but it will have to be an exact fit or will look weird... (actually a better idea may be to cut the neck down the middle and re-glue a whole new piece, I can at least save the wood that way).

And on with today..

Good news is I couldnt find my fretboard but found it now along with that pesky truss rod

Then went in to the workshop and glued the new neck pieces together

So thats all ready now for its truss rod..  Didnt do it today as it had only been a few hours since gluing so want that to set properly over night.

While waiting for the glue to dry..  Remember above I was talking about another body I was working on with a spalted plane top and it crumbled around where I was trying to clean up the binding where the body and neck meet. This is that one

And well I just didnt know what to do as its also chambered so I didnt want to cut the horn area as I wasnt sure exactly where the chambering started... So instead I took the top off with the thicknesser.. There are probably other things I could have done but this seemed the easiest option to save the back wood at least. 

And reveals my super messy chambering  (that no one will ever see which is why I dont care if its super neat or not

So that can get a new top now. I have both a spalted and super flamed maple top at home so maybe I will use one of those. I wanted it to be al english woods from the workshop but whatever.. The other one I am working on will be apart from the fretboard, all english hardwoods.

Then one more silly mistake on this build was when I did the round over on the back I caught the edge of the control cavity which went right through the wood.

So what I did was square that hole off (very very carefully) and I will put a small handle on the edge of the back plate that will cover that and act as an easy way to get the back cover off. So it is now a feature 😄

Im going to try and make the backplate  out of the same wood but am not sure it will be strong enough or not that thin.

More possibly on wednesday.

Edited September 16 by Rabs

[Rabs]

4 hours ago, RBSinTo said:

fyp.,

I understand completely your value for work done problem .

However, in my case, while I'm not necessarily creating things from scratch, whenever I do any sorts of repair work (hockey skate boots, hockey equipment, baseball gloves, guitars) I never charge except in rare cases for certain commercial supplies.

My reasoning is that the satisfaction I get from the problem solving and working with my hands seems to be compensation enough.

RBSinTo

Well exactly..  From what I understand, with most small luthiers, their bread an butter really is not making and selling guitars but doing servicing and repair work. Selling a guitar is more like a bonus.

And yes, we do this because we love doing it, its no real way to make money unless you are a huge company. Really if I would have carried on the main thing is to become as efficient as possible to make it work, but that takes some investment in tools and jigs. Like if all I really wanted to do was sell guitars I could buy a CNC machine and pump out exact copy after exact copy and sell them at more profit and take less time to do(actually someone approached me once to do that). But thats never what it was about as much as I just love doing it and making one off unique guitars. The idea of making 10 or 20 of the exact same thing does not appeal to me at all.

[duane v]

Rabs

With that little mishap maybe consider patching and shape rather than making a cover with a tab. One bonus with wood you are using and in the area where it happened it would blend because there is so much grain structure going on.

[Rabs]

2 hours ago, duane v said:

Rabs

With that little mishap maybe consider patching and shape rather than making a cover with a tab. One bonus with wood you are using and in the area where it happened it would blend because there is so much grain structure going on.

Maybe.. Thing is I actually quite like the idea of a little tab that helps you lift the backplate off.

[duane v]

45 minutes ago, Rabs said:

Maybe.. Thing is I actually quite like the idea of a little tab that helps you lift the backplate off.

If you plan on using active electronics then certainly a nice feature. But since the cover is of the same wood it would blend just as well. Now if you were using a black plastic cover then I think patching would make more sense.... to me.

[Rabs]

1 minute ago, duane v said:

If you plan on using active electronics then certainly a nice feature. But since the cover is of the same wood it would blend just as well. Now if you were using a black plastic cover then I think patching would make more sense.... to me.

Agreed...   Doing what I plan to do, it wont ever been seen or noticed really..

I have also seen an idea for a backplate which I quite like too which is to remove the rim and have the cover replace that so like the whole cover just slides in if you see what I mean.. But I still quite like the tab idea.

Also what I should probably do and I have seen other people do this using spalted wood is that any area you need to cut or shape, flood the area with super glue and that stabalises the wood as such.

[Rabs]

Ok .  Third time lucky  😄 

I triple checked everything this time around and only took 2mm out at a time..  Sweet as ....

You have to chisel out a bit near the headstock end as the nut is just slightly wider than the rest of the truss rod

And its in woooooo!

Then the trussrod access hole and its ready for the fretboard

Fretboard is not going on today though as I have to re-measure the tenon angle to make sure I get a perfect fit and I didnt have time today as I just fit doing this job in before I had a meeting.

I did glue the headstock wings on though. yes they are far bigger than they need to be but id rather have more to work with than less.

So yeah... Little hump over with.. I will not be taking any chances at all from this point. While I have done all of this many times now, having months and months in between doing it, you forget the little things that you learn from. But this should be it now. Once  I get around to doing the tenon angle (as its easier to do without the fretboard on, I will then finish this neck and we will be really close to getting some oil on which I may just take video footage of as its going to be stunning.

 

 

[merciful-evans]

On 9/12/2024 at 4:15 PM, Rabs said:

We are a bit of a weird bunch I think  🙂 

I'm in no doubt whatsoever

[merciful-evans]

I'm enjoying this build more than any other. I know the wasted neck is a complete PITA, and many more difficulties too, but its part of the drama of building this way. 

It will be worth it.

[Rabs]

2 hours ago, merciful-evans said:

I'm enjoying this build more than any other. I know the wasted neck is a complete PITA, and many more difficulties too, but its part of the drama of building this way. 

It will be worth it.

Cheers. Do you remember the first build thread.. It went on I think for two years before I had a proper playable guitar. I remember Pippy once saying that the thread had become like his favorite soap opera.

And indeed one of the things I wanted to do was share the process warts n all in the hope that you were all learning as I did.

Yes this build has been a long time coming but  I wont give up on it. Just been having physical issues the last few years that have stopped this and more recently issues with my mum who is 83 this year and lives alone. We are more than worried about her..  But thus is life.  

Hopefully I will get some more done on Sunday.