Strange marks suddenly appearing on my '68 Dove pickguard.

[bexpet]

Over the last few months, I've noticed a strange phenomenon happening on my 1968 Dove that worries me.  It's always been stored in its original hard case and is humidified in winter. When I first noticed it, I thought it was just a dull scuff kind of thing. I polished the area and thought that was the end of it. Then today, while doing my weekly refill of the humidifying device, I noticed it was worse. Do I need to remove the pickguard to spare the guitar? Looking for advice. Thanks.

[slimt]

49 minutes ago, bexpet said:

Over the last few months, I've noticed a strange phenomenon happening on my 1968 Dove that worries me.  It's always been stored in its original hard case and is humidified in winter. When I first noticed it, I thought it was just a dull scuff kind of thing. I polished the area and thought that was the end of it. Then today, while doing my weekly refill of the humidifying device, I noticed it was worse. Do I need to remove the pickguard to spare the guitar? Looking for advice. Thanks.

Actually that pickguard is crumbling away. Gassing off 

[slimt]

Over time that guard will be a very light beige color and cracked all over.    
 

 

[PrairieDog]

I saw another thread asking about this, (maybe it was you in a different room) and got curious, wondering if it could be mildew. So in researching it, I learned this could be a very bad thing if it is gassing-off. So yeah, you probably want to get the pick guard off and not shut up in the case with the rest of the instrument.  The gasses can wreak havoc with other elements of the guitar.  But in all truth, I’m no expert, so take it to the shop and ask.  I’m just relaying what I read out on the interwebs.  

Edited November 21, 2023 by PrairieDog

[E-minor7]

This may be where you're headed - the crystal-leather stage.

  Actually looks quite good her - 

[bexpet]

Thank you all for your responses. Kind of sad knowing that the pickguard might be on the way out. I wonder if this kind of thing happens with Hummingbirds and others.

[PrairieDog]

2 minutes ago, bexpet said:

Thank you all for your responses. Kind of sad knowing that the pickguard might be on the way out. I wonder if this kind of thing happens with Hummingbirds and others.

Nod, it is a bummer.  Most plastics break down eventually, unless they are formulated to be archival, super expensive.  Some are more stable than others.  So it really depends on what plastic Gibson was sourcing when, and used in which lots.  Kinda a crapshoot.  (Old, degrading plastics, excavated from archaeological sites, I do know about. just didn’t think about it happening in guitars).  The one e-minor posted above does look kinda cool, if you didn’t know where it was headed…

[slimt]

I think it shows character. It looks pretty cool.  Not all things  can be new looking forever 

[E-minor7]

49 minutes ago, bexpet said:

I wonder if this kind of thing happens with Hummingbirds and others.

41 minutes ago, PrairieDog said:

Nod, it is a bummer.  Most plastics break down eventually, unless they are formulated to be archival, super expensive.  Some are more stable than others. 

Never seen it happen on a Hummingbird - and they were born 2 years before the Dove. Perhaps a few times the 200. The slopes all seem to go far as well. . 

[PrairieDog]

28 minutes ago, slimt said:

I think it shows character. It looks pretty cool.  Not all things  can be new looking forever 

It’s not the aesthetics, but the gasses in a closed up place like a case. They will eat at strings and other metal bits, like if you have electronics in your guitar.  And can damage the finish depending on the interaction.  The chemicals used to create plastics and polymers are extremely toxic/caustic until they are stabilized “temporarily” into a matrix to make various materials  (all polymers are temporary, some plastics are stable longer than others).  Off-gassing is the natural decay back to the chemicals original states.  Once it starts, it’s a cascade and there is no good way to undo it or stabilize it, short of stopping the process briefly by cutting away the bad parts. It’s like flesh-eating disease.  It infects the adjoining areas and keeps spreading. Even if you can do surgery, the plastic has already reached it’s end life and will break down eventually.    

[slimt]

17 minutes ago, PrairieDog said:

It’s not the aesthetics, but the gasses in a closed up place like a case. They will eat at strings and other metal bits, like if you have electronics in your guitar.  And can damage the finish depending on the interaction.  The chemicals used to create plastics and polymers are extremely toxic/caustic until they are stabilized “temporarily” into a matrix to make various materials  (all polymers are temporary, some plastics are stable longer than others).  Off-gassing is the natural decay back to the chemicals original states.  Once it starts, it’s a cascade and there is no good way to undo it or stabilize it, short of stopping the process briefly by cutting away the bad parts. It’s like flesh-eating disease.  It infects the adjoining areas and keeps spreading. Even if you can do surgery, the plastic has already reached it’s end life and will break down eventually.    

Oh , I know.   Once it starts. It keeps going. 

[DanvillRob]

20 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

This may be where you're headed - the crystal-leather stage.

  Actually looks quite good her - 

This actually looks kinda cool !

[Sgt. Pepper]

20 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

This may be where you're headed - the crystal-leather stage.

  Actually looks quite good her - 

That looks like it needs a shot of penicillin. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Sgt. Pepper

[Dave F]

All of our skin is going to look like that if we get old enough.

[stevo58]

You DO want to get that pickguard off of there quickly. The decomposing celluloid a cause a lot of permanent finish, plastic, and metal damage. It will discolor the finish. The nitro will run. 
 

The damage is more obvious on archtops, where you can see what is going on under the pickguard. The plating on the pickups corrode, the finish is shot. 
 

It may look “cool”  but get that pickguard off! 
 

 

this is how it ends -

 

 

[fortyearspickn]

Dave F -   did you somehow hack into my home camera?  That looks just like me. On a good day.

Re. the pick guard OP  - in the past 50 years, any chemical might have been on someone's hands that touched it.  If you're not the original owner, there's no telling what might have occurred. We know Insect Repellent safe for humans can wreak havoc with finishes.  If it were simply 'age',  then 90% of all pickguards from that era would be deteriorating - which does not appear to be the case.   Regardless, unless you want to be on the cutting edge of another form of  'relicing' ', you might want to take it off and deep six it. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by fortyearspickn
spell check monster

[Sgt. Pepper]

If that guard is still on there you can see around the edges where the nitro has gotten darker. The p/g also looks to be about 3mm thick. 

[zombywoof]

I had to remove the pickguard on my 1920 L3 because it was corroding the strings and turning the metal parts green.   Oddly, I have not run into the issue with my '32 L1.  I gather it all comes down to the composition of the celluloid they were going with - how much camphor or whatever was used in its production.

As noted above though, Gibson went with thicker plastic scratchplates in the early-1960s.  While, I cannot vouch for the build process as late as 1968, you might want to remain aware that pickguards on earlier instruments were attached to bare wood while they were installed before the finish was applied so that they would have originally been coated with lacquer.  

[62burst]

On 11/22/2023 at 5:06 PM, stevo58 said:

You DO want to get that pickguard off of there quickly. The decomposing celluloid a cause a lot of permanent finish, plastic, and metal damage. It will discolor the finish. The nitro will run. 
 

The damage is more obvious on archtops, where you can see what is going on under the pickguard. The plating on the pickups corrode, the finish is shot. 
 

 

The example SteveO posted (above) of JimR56's guitar, which looks like an old 60's Trini Lopez Custom, makes one wonder if the guitar was salvaged from the Titanic. The elevated 'guard allowing for even more off-gassing (?). Pickup covers: gone.The reaction  getting both upper and lower bout switches, and up into the frets, as well.

OP Bexpet- you've got time to decide what to do, but getting the p/g off of your Dove intact  will be easier before it goes further.

[Hype]

It adds character….

[E-minor7]

For a moment thought this was the spade Garcia used when he played that Fillmore East concert on acid - AFTER the gig. . . 

[cayine]

On 11/21/2023 at 7:46 PM, bexpet said:

Over the last few months, I've noticed a strange phenomenon happening on my 1968 Dove that worries me.  It's always been stored in its original hard case and is humidified in winter. When I first noticed it, I thought it was just a dull scuff kind of thing. I polished the area and thought that was the end of it. Then today, while doing my weekly refill of the humidifying device, I noticed it was worse. Do I need to remove the pickguard to spare the guitar? Looking for advice. Thanks.

https://mayflowerva.com/

I generally hate the look of pick guards so I don't have much experience with them. Do they get marks on them from playing? If so, do people replace them eventually? If not I'm wondering why someone hasn't invented some kind of coating that could be put in the same area as a pick guard that would protect it.

[E-minor7]

26 minutes ago, cayine said:

I generally hate the look of pick guards so I don't have much experience with them. Do they get marks on them from playing? If so, do people replace them eventually? If not I'm wondering why someone hasn't invented some kind of coating that could be put in the same area as a pick guard that would protect it.

1 - Yes, but nothing serious the first many years.

2 - No-no-no, , , some people replace them for primarily 2 reasons : deterioration fx lift ups and taste.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But the majority of p-guard-players just keep them as they are which works fine.

There are kind of transparent films to put on the helpless top.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Very un-sexy and only for over careful 'sissies' and clever-heads who probables will play Little Boxes on a Hillside all their life. . 

[fortyearspickn]

Little Pickguards made of ticky-tacky.      Flamenco guitars often come with a clear 'scratch plate'.    Funny name in Spanish - rumpedaor  or something.  Not plastic, more of an adhesive film. You can also find 'electrostatic' film  on the internet you can use if you don't have/want a pick guard - or you can cut and shape to fit over and protect your engraved p'g.  

[62burst]

2 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

Little Pickguards made of ticky-tacky.      Flamenco guitars often come with a clear 'scratch plate'.    Funny name in Spanish - rumpedaor  or something.  Not plastic, more of an adhesive film. You can also find 'electrostatic' film  on the internet you can use if you don't have/want a pick guard - or you can cut and shape to fit over and protect your engraved p'g.  

Golpeador to them flamenco boys.

12 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

. . . transparent films to put on the helpless top.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Very un-sexy and only for over careful 'sissies' and clever-heads who probables will play Little Boxes on a Hillside all their life. . 

Someone should tell these fellas that they are not being very sexy. Probably has plastic pickguard protector on his black p/g. Prob also knows a Joni Mitchell song:

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by 62burst