mr newhaven Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 can anyone help me out... i sold my 2001 Gibson L-00 and am still in search for the perfect acoustic...which is why it has to be a Gibson... my question is...i love small bodied guitars...they just feel right in your hands...(im over 6'3" mind you but it just feels right) i have found countless guitars that would suit my needs...everything from a vintage 60's LG-1 to the newer L-00 and blues kings... the reason i find myself still looking is because most guitars i see all have x-bracing whereas the older Gibsons *the ones i cant afford* seem to be ladder braced... why is that? and more importantly why do i care so much? maybe its cause i grew up in the early 80's and if i have to hear "X" used in any more products i think im gonna scream! (one too many "extreme" adjectives i guess...or gen x references) is there a noticeable difference in the bracing? am i just being prejudice? i dont know what it is...but should i settle for a small body with x bracing...just because i can find dozens of them? or should i keep on looking? i dont gig...just wanna play for myself as a nice little hobby... electric wise i have les pauls, strats, melody makers, teles (custom built and all rosewood) and yet i am still empty on acoustics... i know i dont want electronics in my acoustic...its almost an oxymoron to me.. i can just mic up the acoustic if i want and run it through my 57 Tweed Champ... you guys are the experts when it comes to this stuff...i am on other forums a lot and still am in awe over the knowledge base on this acoustic forum...if anyone knows it should be some of you good people! thanks in advance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Gibson made few ladder braced guitars. The L00s from the 30s were X braced. The very first L1 flat tops (Robert Johnson) guitar had a style of ladder bracing, but some of the later of this body style were also X braced. The Kalamzoo branded Gibsons are ladder braced. The LG 1, LG0 are also ladder braced guitars built in the 50s and 60s. If you like ladder braced then look at the LG1, Lg0 and Kalamazoos. They are plentiful and affordable. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueboy Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 sent you a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampa Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Try a mid 50's Kay or Harmony. They were ladder braced and have that ladder brace sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Player Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I am with you on the ladder braced tone.... certainly not for everyone, but if you love the blues, you gotta get one! My 1964 LG1 is ladder braced and I bought it for that reason mostly... (well, plus it is a really cool looking little guitar!) I paid around $1100 and then put $500 into a neck reset and having a K & K mini installed... (I know, but I love a good natural plugged in sound and I have and will gig that guitar some more.) It now plays as easy as my Taylor or Gibson AJ and sounds amazing through my Genz Benz acoustic amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Well...I can't understand your obsession.....I ONLY have 3!!!! Something about that ladder braced sound.....can't beat it with a stick. If you like blues, you will like those ladderbraced small bodied guitars......without a doubt!!! Here are some pics: 1. 1900 Washburn Parlor Adirondak and Brazillian, 2. Stromberg-Voisinet 1920's all Koa can anyone help me out... i sold my 2001 Gibson L-00 and am still in search for the perfect acoustic...which is why it has to be a Gibson... my question is...i love small bodied guitars...they just feel right in your hands...(im over 6'3" mind you but it just feels right) i have found countless guitars that would suit my needs...everything from a vintage 60's LG-1 to the newer L-00 and blues kings... the reason i find myself still looking is because most guitars i see all have x-bracing whereas the older Gibsons *the ones i cant afford* seem to be ladder braced... why is that? and more importantly why do i care so much? maybe its cause i grew up in the early 80's and if i have to hear "X" used in any more products i think im gonna scream! (one too many "extreme" adjectives i guess...or gen x references) is there a noticeable difference in the bracing? am i just being prejudice? i dont know what it is...but should i settle for a small body with x bracing...just because i can find dozens of them? or should i keep on looking? i dont gig...just wanna play for myself as a nice little hobby... electric wise i have les pauls' date=' strats, melody makers, teles (custom built and all rosewood) and yet i am still empty on acoustics... i know i dont want electronics in my acoustic...its almost an oxymoron to me.. i can just mic up the acoustic if i want and run it through my 57 Tweed Champ... you guys are the experts when it comes to this stuff...i am on other forums a lot and still am in awe over the knowledge base on this acoustic forum...if anyone knows it should be some of you good people! thanks in advance...[/quote'] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I love ladder braced guitars! There's a dealer in Vermont who always has interesting, ladder braced american guitars. I bought a 000 maple from him and it's a terrific finger pickin' guitar. Here's a link to a few he was selling, http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/91148/t/Dealer-post-3-vintage-parlors-all-ready-to-play-175-to-275.html The nice thing about the old ladder braced-- they are very affordable. (Cheap, actually.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodehopper Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 For Ladder Braced Guitars ...Luthier John How in Cool California can not be beat. He has a "Roots" Ladder Braced model that can be had for $2200. He really gets the essence of the old Stella sound and vibe, but with out the risks and worries of buying an old guitar and trying to resurrect it. link---> Roots I looked at getting an older guitar that was ladder braced, but figure spending maybe $600-$1000 for a nice older guitar.....then the cost (a few hundred $$ to $500 or even more) to repair/restore and all with the very real possibility that something could go wrong or be unable to be truly fixed. Suddenly the various cost scenarios made the John How guitars seem very reasonable. Here is a link to some of his Ladder Braced models Here is mine...it is the Ladder Braced Concert model and it sounds fantastic. This is the only guitar I have that I can fingerpick while my friend is strumming his dread....and it can be easily heard. My other guitars can't compete cutting through against strummed dread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr newhaven Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 goregous guitars everyone! im glad to see that im not the only one with this affliction which is making the prospect of owning a ladder braced guitar all the more invasive! hoss that dealer from VT do you have a link to his site? that laredo is certainly a looker... i wouldnt mind playing that around a campfire next summer... keep them coming guys...i would love to see more pics of ladder braced guitars that either you own or know are for sale! nodehopper i love the headstock of that guitar...i love the look of the classical guitar with the open design and the look of the 3 to a row tuners as well...all are very gorgeous and make me glad that i didnt spend my acoustic money on a moment of weakness the other day and get that Custom Shop Strat i saw... thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I have owned three late 1920s and early 1930s ladder braced Oscar Schmidt-made guitars. I still play a 1920s Stromberg-Voisnet parlor and two mid-1930s Kays. My favorite is the Kay Deluxe K-2. Bent birch ladder braced top. Loud with a clear high end, warm slightly muted mids and a thumping bass. A peanut butter smooth response. Here is the Kay Deluxe K-2(with the Zorzi adjustable neck) The Kay Deluxe Venetian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 hoss that dealer from VT do you have a link to his site? No Site-- just a guy who has a bunch of unique ladder braced guitars. Get hold of him and tell him what you're looking for-- Another good place for these old american ladders-- http://www.fatdawg.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markob Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I hear you and concur. I have two. A 69 Favilla C5 and a 59 Gibson LGO. Love them all hog ladders. Favilla: Gibby: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinder Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I used to have a great '68 B15, very underrated all-Hog ladder, a really spanky and cool sounding machine-I had to sell it when I was dropped by my former record label this time last year, but I wish I coulda kept it. It was a really great guitar for clanky, diggin'-in-hard blues playing with a pick, and also excelled for fingerstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6stringTom Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 A question for ladder-braced fans: I've always understood that the rationale for the x-brace is that it was needed to withstand the tension of steel strings. Are the ladder-braced guitars you are showing (and there certainly are some beauties pictured here) extra heavily braced, or do you just accept that neck resets will be needed more frequently with these guitars? Or is there something else that makes these ladder-braced guitars resistant to the stress of steel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodehopper Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I have to admit I have never heard a Hog ladder braced guitar....I love the sound of an all hog guitar and can imagine that ladder bracing would bring out even more of that bluesy hog sound I love! Very nice....any sound or vid clips so I could hear them? Mr NewHaven....thanks for the compliments on "My Baby" ....on this one John How even did binding on the headstock and the sound hole.....which is very authentic and was something that was done back in the "Stella" days on the higher end models. A great resource regarding Oscar Schmidt Guitars (Stella, Sovereign, Galiano) http://www.stellaguitars.com/ Neil Harpe is probably the ultimate expert on these guitars and if you are interested he has written a small book that you can buy on his site that is excellent ! His site usually has an inventory of guitars he has restored and put up for sale. You will pay premium, but can be assured of a well restored instrument and his reputation is above reproach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markob Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Hey nodehopper here is a clip w/ my 69 Favilla. Cheap mic and old strings but you might get an idea of what this ladder braced all hog sounds like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodehopper Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Hey nodehopper here is a clip w/ my 69 Favilla. Cheap mic and old strings but you might get an idea of what this ladder braced all hog sounds like. Really nice ...it sure has a warm bluesy sound. Here is my John How in comparison ......forgive my singing ...singing is still a work in progress for me. LOL !! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHt7cDx6WKw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markob Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Very nice node. Piano tones from that little box and hey I liked the singin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markob Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Hey nodehopper this "audio only" clip gives a better feel for the ladder/hog sound of the Favilla (Better mic)I wish I had the 59 LGO at the time these were done. The gibby's tone is "rounder" with nice overtones. At least to me..but what do I know??. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 6stingTom, I don't think the ladder braced had any more structural problems than the X braced do. I had an LG1 for nearly 40 years, no neck, bridge or any other problems. Some do have bridge lifting - but that might be because they used plastic! I had my frets dressed, and a bone saddle put in and asked my luthier if I should get him to put in an ebony bridge - he said it would be crazy - 'if it's not broke, don't fix it". When the big shift occured to X, I'm guessing in the 70's, I think it was due to the different/fuller projection from the face. I like the ladder sound because of the blend of the resonance from the face with the inside, mellow sound coming out though the soundhole. G'luck in your quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodehopper Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 From Wikipedia ---- The tops of most steel string acoustic guitars are braced using the X-brace system, or a variation of the X-brace system, generally attributed to Christian Frederick Martin between 1840 and 1845 for use in gut string guitars. I really don't think the structural difference in terms of longevity between X bracing and Ladder bracing is that significant. When steel strings became popular both bracing patterns were beefed up to accommodate the extra stress. I believe the current predominance of X bracing is that X bracing is considered "modern" while ladder bracing has been associated with cheap archaic mass produced instruments and has simply gotten a bad reputation. Given that there are still hundreds of thousands of the old cheap ladder braced guitars still out there...it would seem a testament to their durability. X bracing is associated with the "Modern" sound of the guitar while ladder bracing has an older less complex tonality. For many the lack of overly lush overtones and strong fundamentals produced by a ladder braced guitar can be great for fingerpicking (helps keep the picked melody separated from the alternating bass) along with giving blues and old time music a more authentic sound. Just as currently the CD and MP3 are considered modern and are the industry standard.....there are still audiophiles who worship at the alter of vinyl and even reel to reel tape decks for the warm traditional sound quality they love. PS. ---- markob ---- that sound clip is mighty fine....is that you playing and is that your YouTube channel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Lawton Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I also love the ladder-braced sounds. I've owned a couple of Stellas which were birch bodied. Great blues guitars. I now own 2 of Todd Cambio's Fraulini guitars - an Erma and an Angelina. He's is now making me a big-bodied (like a jumbo size) ladder-braced beauty called a Felix. Can't wait. Go over to Fraulini guitars and take a look. His stuff is being played by a couple of big players. Good luck Geoff PS - I also have an early 60s LG1 - ladder braced and what a sound and look! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Zomby, you EVER want to sell that Kay K-2....just let me know.....lol.....very nice!!! I have owned three late 1920s and early 1930s ladder braced Oscar Schmidt-made guitars. I still play a 1920s Stromberg-Voisnet parlor and two mid-1930s Kays. My favorite is the Kay Deluxe K-2. Bent birch ladder braced top. Loud with a clear high end' date=' warm slightly muted mids and a thumping bass. A peanut butter smooth response. Here is the Kay Deluxe K-2(with the Zorzi adjustable neck) [img']http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5/zombywoof51/kay_K-2_Front-1.jpg[/img] The Kay Deluxe Venetian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 To put it into perspective, a How guitar would have sold in the $150 range back in the 1930s - more than a Martin D-28 would have run ya. It would cost more than three times as much as Curley Weaver's then top of the line Kay Kraft "Venetian" and a whole lot more than Blind Willie Johnson's Schmidt-made First Hawaiian. Oscar Schmidt used every kinda wood imaginable on his guitars - mahogany, koa, cherry and so on. But Schmidt's bread and butter guitar was one with birch back and sides and often even a birch top (plus plenty of decals) which sold in the $10-$20 range. The big advantage of birch was that while it was cheap it is also harder and stiffer than mahogany. In terms of amplifying sound, this gave the guitars good projection and tended to make them a bit brighter or crisper sounding the softer woods like mahogany. And they were really well built instruments. Henry Kuhrmeyer (Kay) was known for raiding Lyon and Healy and other companies taking their best builders. But the blues was a vocal music and the guitar was there to accompany a vocal rather than to be used as a instrument to play fast single string lead lines. I wonder how many folks today would be willing to lay out their hard earned scratch on a How guitar if they truly sounded like the mail order Schmidts and Kay Krafts Blind Willie Johnson, Charlie Patton, and Curley Weaver played. I am guessing the How, Hauver and other Schmidt look-alikes out there are incredibly fine guitars. But if ya want the heartbeat of an original Schmidt there just ain't no subsitute for the Real McCoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Zomby' date=' you EVER want to sell that Kay K-2....just let me know.....lol.....very nice!!![/quote'] I thank you for the compliment. Kay only made these in 1935 and 1936 when they were shifting from the Kay Kraft to Kay moniker. They sold in the mail order catalogs for $20. The sound of these little beasts is hard to describe as they combine characteristics of both an f hole archtop and a flattop. I tend to only let guitars go when I run across some other instrument I can't live without so you never know as that happens more than I wish it would. So if you are really interested send me a PM so I can remember you if it goes on the chopping block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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