Gibson Shmibson...

[RotcanX]

Yup. As I said, better in some ways, less so in others. As Uncle Al has pointed out, Elitists are not "the same" as Gibsons, and I agree... but Gibsons are no better in the end analysis. And the veneer issue is really just a small one since there's still a plain maple cap under it... so tonally it's all the same... I'm just anal enough that it bugs me a bit.

[hbucker]

 

Think harder.

 

Oh gosh. O.K. I guess I'll think harder... Maybe while I'm doing that' date=' you can lighten up just smidge? Maybe between my complex thinking and you loosening the waistband on your undies we can find a happy place together?

 

This is a guitar forum that I stop by every so often and offer up opinions. I must be unique in that regard.... I don't happen to have all my facts and figures on production costs right here with me. Must have left them in my other suit. All I have are opinions, some experience and common sense.

 

[b']If you'll notice, the gist of my post was to acknowledge that the design of the LP is more complex and requires more labor than a Strat. [/b] If I was incorrect in how I supported my (yours too apparently) position then I stand corrected. I'd have to understand more specifically how labor costs translate into the retail prices of these products before I concede anything. But as is, I don't have a hard time believing that BOTH products are overpriced.

 

Whatever. Have a great weekend.

[hbucker]

Over on the Gibson forum they're having a great time ridiculing some guy who contended that "Elitists are superior to production Gibsons in every way". I can't agree with that statement' date=' of course, but was tempted to add that 'whereas that statement is pretty ridiculous it's also not correct to assume that elitists are [b']significantly inferior [/b]to the production Gibbys'. I did, however, decide to just let it go since I didn't want to start a war I couldn't win, considering the environment.

 

I do consider the elitists to be on a par with the production Gibbys (not 'superior in every way, however) but nobody who paid 2 1/2 times more for their Gibby than I paid for my elitists will ever accept that. Invariably somebody over there would contend that the 'African mahogany vs. Honduran mahogany' and the 'plastic' finishes on the elitists made it necessary for them to spend the $2500 for their Gib. And that's ok with me. If the African mahogany & nitro finish was worth $1500 to them, well, to each his own.

 

I've not played a standard Gibson product that I prefer over my Elitist LP. Certainly not a Studio which is the guitar many seem to want to compare to the Elitists. I see the Elitists as a viable alternative to Gibson products. Certainly different enough that people could prefer one over the other.

 

IMO people's biggest hang ups with the Elitists are not the poly or the African Mahogany. It's the different shaped headstock containing the word "Epiphone". Bottom line for me is that they are rock solid guitars that compare very favorably with their Gibson cousins and cost much much less. I would prefer that my Standard + not have the veneer but it sure is pretty and it is only cosmetic. Implying it influences the performance of the guitar is (to me) like saying a blue guitar can perform better than a red one.

 

I did play a '60 historic LP not long ago that I would trade my Elitist for. It was really nice. I don't think that takes anything away from my Elitist though.

[RotcanX]

Maybe while I'm doing that' date=' you can lighten up just smidge? [/quote']

 

Whups, sorry, dude, wasn't trying to get personal or anything. Sorry if I hurt your feewings there, wasn't my intention. Just.. you know... clarifying the difference in labour between a Strat and a Les Paul. You seemed to be unsure as to the quantitative difference in labour costs between Strats and Les Pauls... now, while I haven't actually built a Les Paul I have made a couple of Strats and Strat necks and I have seen what is involved in making a Les Paul style guitar in comparison... so I was just sharing that info. FWIW the materials used on a Les Paul are more pricey too... Honduran mahogany is VERY expensive and you need a big thick chunk to make a neck out of... and don't even start on what flame maple is going for these days.

 

Anyway, you have a good week-end too, pal, and once again sorry if I rubbed ya the wrong way there.

[RotcanX]

IMO people's biggest hang up with the Elitists is the different shaped headstock containing the word "Epiphone".

 

Definitely. Everybody's worried about "resale" value and they think if they buy a Gibson it's going to be worth a fortune in a few years. I dunno, for me it's all about getting a good guitar at a good price. When I bought my Elitists I bought 'em for keeps and I figure that the $1,000 I saved by buying an Elitist beats any possible "resale" money I might get on a Gibson.

[tulsaslim]

I read not long ago where the 'vintage guitar' market was basically controlled by 6 'super collectors' & one of these guys is a guy named George Gruhn. I read somewhere (in Vintage Guitar, I think) where he said he thought there was 'little to no chance' the present-day production Gibsons would ever be worth anything near 'vintage' prices due to the enormous quantities made. He basically said anybody that thinks their new Gibson is gonna be worth a ton of money in 20 years is a fool.

 

Like you, I've never bought a guitar based on it's 'resale value'. I buy 'em 'cause I like 'em, plain & simple. And I love my elitists. Hands down the best guitar for the money currently for sale anywhere. As long as elitist LPs are available I'll never consider buying another Gibson LP.

[Suicidehummer]

noobzilla wrote:

Even the paint on my Epis is better... Gibsons always have that laquer finish to em, like some 100 year old house trim, outdated.. my Epis shine like a mirror.

 

Sorry to sound harsh, but you're wrong.

 

The Gibson's finish is superior, and gives a longer sustain. It's a nitrocellulose laquer paint that is thinner than Epi's and in turn lets more of the sound reach through the paint into the wood.

 

As far as your Gibson breaking onstage, I find that hard to believe, as they use better woods, thicker wires, and it's all hand-built. Does this make all gibsons better than Epis? No, but they should hold up far longer. That's why so many Gibsons survived until their 50's.

 

Dave wrote:

I think the same comparisions can be made for a lot of import vs american made goods nowdays. Offshore manufacturing is getting better all the time. There was a time when Japanese mfg was considered "junk". Now it is preferred in most instances.

 

I don't blame you for thinking that, but you're also incorrect.

 

The Japanese companies are the biggest lobbyers of the auto industry in America. They put out loads of propaganda, and the public eats it up. The news never mentioned the millions of recalled Tundras and Sequoias because of engine problems, yet they reported on the Fords recalled for door handles falling off! I don't want to argue about that, but trust me, American cars are so far imroved over what they were in the 80's, you wouldn't even recognize one. Have you ever seen a Cadillac CTS?

 

But back to the point, I think you guys are looking at it too mathematically. This guitar has blah, this one doesn't, etc. I see it this way:

 

I think that my Epiphones play very well. I've gone to GC, and I've played Gibsons that suck @$$, yet I've played ones that play better than any guitar I've ever played. I've also played some Sh***y Epis, and some Epis that were great guitars. To me it all boils down to this: (And you can quote me on this!)

 

Epiphones are excellent guitars that are more than worth the money, BUT Gibsons are fantastic guitars that are on another level than Epis. That said, I believe the gap is shortening by every new Epihone model.

[Prospero]

Definitely. Everybody's worried about "resale" value and they think if they buy a Gibson it's going to be worth a fortune in a few years. I dunno' date=' for me it's all about getting a good guitar at a good price. When I bought my Elitists I bought 'em for keeps and I figure that the $1,000 I saved by buying an Elitist beats any possible "resale" money I might get on a Gibson.[/quote']

 

You know, I don't get that about the used guitar market. Just because it is a Gibson it does not mean it should be immune from devaluation. There is a point, yes, where the value of a used quality product stops depreciating and begins to increase again as it becomes "vintage" and is sought after by collectors. Usually we're talking about milestone models or exceptional examples, or products that become iconic or symbolic. I just don't get this fervent belief that if it says "Gibson" on the headstock it will automatically become vintage and appreciate in value the second you walk it out of the store, no matter what that product is. A 2007 Les Paul Studio is not a retirement plan.

[matiac]

Welp, I'm not gonna get into an argee-ment over what's better or not, simply because I've never tried an Elitist, hell, never even seen one up close and personal. I'll bet they're great guitars, I've heard nothing but good things about them, and they're half the price of their Gibson counterpart(s). All I gotta say is I got what I got, I'm more than happy with my production Epiphone AND my production Gibson, I don't really give a rat's arse what anyone thinks about any of my gear, I don't bash anyone, or look down my nose at anyone for what they have, if they're happy with it, that's all that really matters, I'd say, and I'm happy for them.

[charlie brown]

Ah...the old Gibson Vs Epi (or anything else) debate/debacle.

 

I love 'em all! Gibson's are rapidly soaring out of my ("justifiable") price range,

but...I still love 'em! Own a bunch, already (Thank God), and a bunch of Epi's, Fenders,

Rick's, Gretschs, too! All acquired over the last 40 years, or so... So, the Gibson's (or any

of the other brands) weren't nearly as expensive, then, as they are now!

 

For me, Epi's are a great alternative (if you like), and...in and of themselves, just great

guitars, that can easily stand on their own! So...to me, if you have the "means," and the

"Lust" for a Gibson...Go For It! But, Epi's aren't the "bastard step children" of Gibson, at all...

IMHO! I love every Epiphone I own!

 

Charlie B.

[matiac]

Ah, it's not even really that Chuck. Someone made a comment about Elitists, and well, you know the drill. This is, after all, a forum to discuss opinions, and everyone's got one that generally doesn't jibe with someone else's. That's what makes 'em fun I think.

[charlie brown]

True...but, it just seems like we beat a dead horse, all to often?

LOL!

 

But, FUN, it is!

 

Charlie B.

[goldtop1281734016]

an epi with gibson pickups is were its at

[Lerxst1281733995]

 

You know' date=' I don't get that about the used guitar market. Just because it is a Gibson it does not mean it should be immune from devaluation. There is a point, yes, where the value of a used [b']quality[/b] product stops depreciating and begins to increase again as it becomes "vintage" and is sought after by collectors. Usually we're talking about milestone models or exceptional examples, or products that become iconic or symbolic. I just don't get this fervent belief that if it says "Gibson" on the headstock it will automatically become vintage and appreciate in value the second you walk it out of the store, no matter what that product is. A 2007 Les Paul Studio is not a retirement plan.

 

Absolutely... Like Tulsaslim said earlier in the thread (quoting George Gruhn); the vintage guitar market will only go so far.. It's like comic books.. (bear with me) The reason why an original Spider Man comic from the 60's is worth what it is, is because they weren't printed in enormous quantities back then, and so few of them have survived in decent condition... Now people think if they hold on to any comic book long enough, it will eventually be worth several thousand dollars.. There's no point in waiting for contemporary comics to increase in value, because there's just too many of them being made and collectors take better care of them..

 

Same thing with vintage guitars.. Fewer of them were produced, and no one knew their guitars would be worth anything in the future, so nobody thought twice about modding, refinishing, defacing, or destroying them.. The best you can hope for with a modern Gibson is that it will "hold" its value, and you can sell it for about the same price you paid for it..

 

I still tell my girlfriend it's an "investment", though... :)

 

And no... I don't collect comic books.

[tulsaslim]

And quite honestly nobody should worry about what your guitars will be worth someday. That's owning a guitar for all the wrong reasons.

 

If things go right for me, I'll never have to sell any of my guitars. And I don't want to sell any of them. The only thing I know for sure is that as far as my 'regular' Epis go I'd never be able to sell them for what I've got in them with modifications. I knew that beforehand and didn't care.

 

I've bought 2 Gibsons in the last year or so (a 333 and an LP DC Pro) & never thought about what they'll be worth down the road. I enjoy the heck out of playing them and that alone is worth every dime I paid for them.

[matiac]

I enjoy the heck out of playing them and that alone is worth every dime I paid for them.

And that sir, is what it's all about.

[Amino Moore]

 

You know' date=' I don't get that about the used guitar market. Just because it is a Gibson it does not mean it should be immune from devaluation. There is a point, yes, where the value of a used [b']quality[/b] product stops depreciating and begins to increase again as it becomes "vintage" and is sought after by collectors. Usually we're talking about milestone models or exceptional examples, or products that become iconic or symbolic. I just don't get this fervent belief that if it says "Gibson" on the headstock it will automatically become vintage and appreciate in value the second you walk it out of the store, no matter what that product is. A 2007 Les Paul Studio is not a retirement plan.

 

Prospero,

I agree with you but it does seem to be that way, doesn't it? Take for example the Gibson Sonex. Quite possibly the lowest point in Gibson's quality zeinith. Made from sawdust and glue (slight exaggeration) these were awful guitars ( I know because I owned one) which people today are trying to sell on ebay for ridiculous amounts of money. I even saw some NOS models on eBay for over $1500 USD. There is a reason why they never sold. But alas they carry the mythical "name" and so they are valued.

exhibit A- http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-Gibson-Sonex-180-Deluxe-ebony-NEW-OLD-STOCK-NOS_W0QQitemZ130202111168QQihZ003QQcategoryZ33040QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I currently own a mid-80's Tokai strat that will absolutely kill most any current era american strat and it's street value is barely $500. I could never replace it for that but luckily I don't intend to.

As for the Elitist debate, I love my VS plaintop Elitist LP studio. It satisfies that LP need for me quite nicely. If I were to buy Gibby it would only be to get something a little nicer in appearance.

[evol04gt]

i would like to paraphrase suicide with my opinion..... a gibson is worth every penny.. so is a good prs/gretsch, ric.

 

however-- the new prs line (the SE models) and when de-armond made versions of gretsches.... this is my opinion--add it to my epiphone idea--

------------ epiphones are worth about 50% more than their shelf price for everyone ive touched. often i have wondered how they could not cost more...its simple--- ill buy 3-10 more of them overtime and probably 2-5 more gibsons intime.... my point may have just been a little lost...

 

 

my guitar repair shop has had one of those SONEX things for a few yrs i think.. priced at 650 and i always wonder its story (kinda like the first time you see those jacked up ARTIST series) if this was a heavy production model, it wouldnt ever be worth anything.. but BECAUSE its rare to find one not broken, not smashed or under a bed, people will pay more money for something stupid...

 

anything in lower production that may have been smashed away at some point is gonna be worth money to the fool or nerd willing to pay more JUST TO HAVE IT over the next guy.. friggin baseball cards, misprinted stamps00 its all the same.. people put a value on anything... i remember a time when you couldnt PAY someone to say they used tube amps or that their guitar had a "classic" look (sunbursts, hollowbodies etc) KRAMER guitars arent worth shxt now. hence the 200 dollar duosonic i wish i would have purchased 9 years ago that is now on ebay for 800-2000 becuase people want them they are willing to pay more than they would for a reissue shortscale fender that doesnt have a CRAP radius...

 

gibson vs epiphone is a hated topic for me... they are both completely good products.. gibson still give people the feelings that its a "made by hand" instrament and epiphone make people think "Assembly line". i gaurantee that most people dont give epiphone players much respect UNLESS that epi player ALSO has shelled out for a GIBSON

 

 

i appreciate the people comparing usa fender and mexi fender to gibby and epi... not saying usa fender and gibby are in the same boat, but its a similar comparison..

 

theres a lot of us fender guys that would rather buy a 3 or 4 mexis and swap pick ups to liking than buying two usa standards. but still have a usa or two when someone starts putting down the mexi..

 

a guitar is a guitar.. its wood, strings, metal, wire, finish... the materials maybe different but how each one is made is what matters.... i bet money that a hard v 50s strat plays and intonates and is set up like SH%T next to my 00 strat. but the buyers and droolers set it up to be which one is worth more.... honestly if i found a 59 lespaul, i would sell that sh2t to the highest bidder, buy some epis to make myself feel better, and spend the rest on my house. thanks for reading my eeeeeeeeeepinions.

[Manboy]

Well' date=' after over 300 live shows under my belt, I gotta say, Im thru with Gibson..

 

Im tired of paying 3 grand for guitars that dont hold up to real world use. Im not one of these rich rock stars who can afford to buy a new one every week...nor enough to have 20 on the truck for backups..

 

My latest beef.. electronics.. The wiring on my last les paul custom was so bad, they failed on the 2nd gig. We actually had to stop the song while I changed axes.. Pathetic. You would think paying $2000-$3000 for a new guitar that you wouldnt have a problem like this for years of usage..

 

Ive had 2 Epiphone Les Pauls since the early 90s, one standard, one custom that i have used as backups on stage for years.. They have never failed. I had the pickups in the standard changed to Duncans, but other than that, theyre both stock..original pots, original wiring, original hardware.. Id put either of them up against any Gibson LP any day of the week.. I actually used the standard in the studio on our first CD..

 

When you buy Gibson, youre paying 50% for that little "Gibson" logo on the headstock.. and 50% for the guitar itself.. A damn shame.. Ive had it with them.. Its a shame that Epiphone gets such a bad rap/rep , With the right Epi, you get the same quality.. for 1/3 the price.. Ive got 4 Gibson LPs on ebay for sale as we speak.. keeping my Epis..

Will buy EPSs to replace the Gibsons..[/quote']

 

 

I hear ya man, Epi's might be the "Cheap" brand but who cares if it says gibson or epiphone? Play what you like whether it be a 100 dollar first act guiar for all we care lol. I personally like epiphones better because they cost about 2/3 less and they work just as well for what i can tell. If it ends up breaking down at least i bought it for 700 instead of 3000 ya know?

[noobzilla]

Well I have sold all of my Gibsons. Paid too much for them to begin with. $8000+ and only got about $6500 back from the selloff. Hold their value ? BLAH. My Gibsons were spotless. Mint condition. From now on, if I want another LP, it will be an Epi.

 

There arent many guitar shops in my city, maybe 8 places that have any real selection at all. None of which are allowed to sell Gibson. A couple of them have tried, and got caught by Gibson reps, and told to get them off the shelf. What kind of crock is that? Oh, I forgot, if they control who sells them, they can control the pricing, therefore, keep the pricing way up for guitars that arnt any better than other brands for 1/3 the price.

 

Personally, It wouldnt hurt my feelings if Gibson went out of business. They cater to the elitist, and leave the rest of us paying high dollars for a silly logo on the headstock. Id looooooooove to see every artist play other brands on stage. Of course, with all the overpriced axes theyve sold to suckers like myself over the years they probably got mega bucks in the bank to live on for decades. Sucks.

[carverman]

Well I have sold all of my Gibsons. Paid too much for them to begin with. $8000+ and only got about $6500 back from the selloff. Hold their value ? BLAH. My Gibsons were spotless. Mint condition. From now on' date=' if I want another LP, it will be an Epi. [/quote']

 

Is this thread still going..surprised they haven't killed it yet!

 

Well at least you are still brand concious to the "World's Greatest Guitar Factory". Yes, they may be overpriced, but

if you want good quality parts and workmanship, you have to pay for the overhead that employs American labour

and facilites, and parts. That overhead includes, the machinery to make them, the labour to make them, the inspectors, the office staff, the purchasers, the shippers, the trucks and truck drivers, the nurse etc..everybody

expects to be paid and oh yes..the benefits, vacation and pension plan. I'm sure that Gibson does not operate

2 shifts in their factory in Nashville/Memphis on the 4th of July....so somebody's gotta pay for their holidays..

and that would be the the buying public. That's the way it is.

 

As far as investment...they do have investment value as "long term" investments, not short term. Keep one

for 20-30 years (if you live that long) and it should be worth at least what you did pay for it..or possibly even

more..if you are still capable of enjoying the money..and don't forget all those years of playing them..priceless!

[stan 58]

I got a 92 gibson studio plus new in 2oo2,for $1099.oo. Ijust saw one for sale in vintage guitar mag[great mag for grown ups] For $1099.00 for a 92. I mite not get rich but i won't get reamed either. But i still love my epis no matter what they sell for used. Stan.

[Belzeebub]

Well' date=' after over 300 live shows under my belt, I gotta say, Im thru with Gibson..

 

Im tired of paying 3 grand for guitars that dont hold up to real world use. Im not one of these rich rock stars who can afford to buy a new one every week...nor enough to have 20 on the truck for backups..

 

My latest beef.. electronics.. The wiring on my last les paul custom was so bad, they failed on the 2nd gig. We actually had to stop the song while I changed axes.. Pathetic. You would think paying $2000-$3000 for a new guitar that you wouldnt have a problem like this for years of usage..

 

Ive had 2 Epiphone Les Pauls since the early 90s, one standard, one custom that i have used as backups on stage for years.. They have never failed. I had the pickups in the standard changed to Duncans, but other than that, theyre both stock..original pots, original wiring, original hardware.. Id put either of them up against any Gibson LP any day of the week.. I actually used the standard in the studio on our first CD..

 

When you buy Gibson, youre paying 50% for that little "Gibson" logo on the headstock.. and 50% for the guitar itself.. A damn shame.. Ive had it with them.. Its a shame that Epiphone gets such a bad rap/rep , With the right Epi, you get the same quality.. for 1/3 the price.. Ive got 4 Gibson LPs on ebay for sale as we speak.. keeping my Epis..

Will buy EPSs to replace the Gibsons..[/quote']

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles. but unless you modded your gibbys, i dont think the electronics would have presented any problems - but thats just my opinion.

[Belzeebub]

And for those saying that all you pay when getting a gibson is for the logo, think again. Gibson uses real maple tops not veneer, have some of the most desirable pickpups (wouldnt you swap out those epi pups for a pair of genuine '57 classics? or maybe PAFs?), and the nitro finish (that checks with age and other factors giving a vintage mojo). Epis are good guitars and the elitists are cool. but its like comparing apples to oranges. If I were a musician who plays for a living, I would buy a nice vintage Gibson, lock it away and gig with my modded Epi. If I were to play Wembley Stadium or Madison Square Garden, then I would break out the Gibson. simple as that. Both brands have their short comings and pluses. The two guitars are constructed differently - which by no means implies inferiority.

[Biff]

ENOUGH!!

Enough, I've had enough!!!! I WANT OUT!

I'm getting out of here.

No - don't ever tell me how Epiphones are a sensible choice, never again.

Now where the hell is the logout button...