The_Sentry Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Ugh....I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here....and keep in mind, this is just from a consumer who's been playing guitar for a while (I started back in '85) and it's geared specifically towards the electric guitar lines vs. the other products. As a disclaimer, if you find this post offensive or inappropriate, I apologize in advance. Before I get into this, I guess I should give out some additional information: I own a Gibson Les Paul Studio (Left handed model...plays great stock), and an Epiphone Les Paul Custom (I did a lot of modifications on it...it also sounds great). I like both guitars for different reasons. The Gibson I like because despite its lack of extras, it has a nice, full, round tone with that mahogany neck, arch maple top and the 490/498 pickups. It's the guitar I primarily record with. The Epiphone (which I bought more for when I'm travelling or playing out) is a guitar I grew to love not because it was great from the factory (in fact, to be fair the model I got from Musician's Friend was a lemon...and it took a long time just to get the model) but because it forced me to fix my own guitar, and that inevitably led to a series of upgrades, including installing a new nut, Gibson Burstbucker Pro pickups with the Alcino V magnets, and a bridge that I did a little tweaking on with a third vendor. I'm proud of that Epiphone, and part of my enjoyment in playing is is knowing that for the most part, I fixed it myself, and modified it...myself. And, of course, knowing the construction on it....(solid mahogany with no maple top)....my interest was piqued back to Gibson when I saw....their Vintage guitar line of Les Pauls. Oddly enough....it has many of the same things my Epiphone has on it with some minor variations. The Burstbucker pickups. The solid mahogany construction. But, it doesn't have my tuxedo finish....and to be honest? I think my Epiphone is a better guitar. That's not me being sentimental about it. That's me just stating that I have that stuff on my Epiphone, in addition to binding, and a better finish that will last longer. So...that led to some digging, and then I noticed that Gibson was offering something like 16 base models...(stripped down) all under a 1000 dollars. The Epiphones aren't exactly in direct competition (except for maybe a couple of signatures) but their top of the line guitars seem to occupy the 1100-to-under-1200 mark and over that? Gibson Les Paul Studio. Now...some thoughts that might make some people mad...but I think it's a fair thing to say. I don't know how other people feel about Gibson...but in terms of electric, solid bodied guitars...I've long considered them to be...the Holy Grail of Electric Rock Humbucking Guitars. The best of the best. The fullest tone. The best hardware. The best construction. The fattest, richest, thickest tone to be had out of a solid body electric guitar. Now, this is how I feel about Epiphone....it's an affordable alternative. Their upper models are really, really nice. They are one of the few companies that can offer an archtop to a player at a reasonable cost. And, there's a large mod culture that has sort of developed around the Epiphones....and a lot of the mods include dropping Gibson hardware into these guitars. So with that being said....I don't understand why Gibson is now making all of these models that are sort of in direct competition with Epiphone's market and product line...specifically the Elites. The guitars are probably fairly nice, but without the finish? The top line hardware? The binding on the Les Pauls? I suppose some SG's and Flying V's fit into that market....but Les Pauls? The Holy Grail of Solid Body, Electric Humbucking guitars? Say it ain't so. Some will argue that a lot of Gibson owners are sort of snobby about their guitars....I'm not going to agree or disagree with that. But at the same time, if someone just dropped 2-3 thousand dollars on one of those guitars, shouldn't they feel like they've gotten a piece of the Holy Grail, the Best of the Best, the electric guitar version of Excalibur, theirs and theirs alone? My thoughts are for better or worse...that's Gibson's primary customers. (Those and the serious musicians who will squander all of their money because they will not accept anything less.) Often these are people who have worked long and hard to deserve a chance to play those fine guitars. And at the same time? Epiphone is a great choice for so many of us...becuase as nice as Excalibur, or the Holy Grail is, those aren't guitars you modify, or tweak. You don't, and shouldn't have to. (But half the fun of an Epiphone IS tweaking it...at least a little!) So....for what it's worth, I guess I just don't understand, as a consumer, why Gibson is making cheaper guitars that compete with Epiphone. I always thought the Studio Les Paul was the cheapest model.... 2 cents..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerxst1281733995 Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I smell a dead horse around here... Actually, that awful faded Gibson SG is cheaper than a LP Studio... $795 or something... If I were an SG guy, I'd rather have a G400... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Actually' date=' that awful faded Gibson SG is cheaper than a LP Studio... $795 or something... If I were an SG guy, I'd rather have a G400... [/quote']Not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I smell a dead horse around here... Actually' date=' that awful faded Gibson SG is cheaper than a LP Studio... $795 or something... If I were an SG guy, I'd rather have a G400... [/quote'] I'm ready for the discussion should it occur... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I own 3 "Cheap" Gibsons...2 LP Junior Lites, and 1 Faded LP Double Cut. Love them all. I have done "mods" to them, changed tuners, etc., and some other personalizing things (which are all totally reversible, to original specs). So, people DO "mod" Gibsons (even the higher priced versions) all the time... maybe more for their own personal preferences, than any real necessity? I have several "High End" Gibsons, as well...but, have never felt the "need" to mod them. But, that's just me! I know what you mean, but all the guitar companies (and most other product manufacturers, to be honest) are doing the same thing... Do we really need umpteen "Strats," or "Tele's?" Much less all the "Clones?" No!...but, such is commerce! ;>) CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubstar Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 "Actually, that awful faded Gibson SG is cheaper than a LP Studio... $795 or something... If I were an SG guy, I'd rather have a G400..," man, I know I respond every time, but I get kind of tired of comments like that...once again, my gibson special faded LH is very well made and I certainly would not trade it for any G400...elitist different story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johncart Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I have several guitars..none top of the line but all really nice(Ithink)(Jackson dinky,Ibanez artist,Takamine elec 12string,Montana elec acoustic,Washburn Pbass modified to a Vox Phantom 4,Epiphone Lp100 modified to a setneck and Gibson headstock,and a Epiphone Cherryburst Custom with all Gibson electronics. I love my LP100 for its small neck and easy to play...I love my custom for its crankin tone and awesome looks...I dont think i would mess with a top dollar guitar...probably for the same reason you mentioned...for the money you shouldnt have to.. I feel most companies are trying to cover as many areas as possible to get the most sales..so thats why there are so many versions..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansmitchell Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I smell a dead horse around here... Actually' date=' that awful faded Gibson SG is cheaper than a LP Studio... $795 or something... If I were an SG guy, I'd rather have a G400... [/quote'] Have you HEARD, no PLAYED a faded sg? It's all that chunk, man, the SG tone, it's pretty much plug and play, I mean, amazing. Like, I can easily see how angus young pumped hit after hit from that slab of mahogany and those humbuckers. For lead solos, you might want a 498 or a signiture pickup, but for blues or rhythmn guitar MAN!! I love that thing. Sadly, I don't own one. But the pre-loved finish really looks lice in person, and, like an epiphone, you aren't afraid to play it, mod it, make it yours. Atleast I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sentry Posted June 16, 2008 Author Share Posted June 16, 2008 Have you HEARD' date=' no PLAYED a faded sg? It's all that chunk, man, the SG tone, it's pretty much plug and play, I mean, amazing. Like, I can easily see how angus young pumped hit after hit from that slab of mahogany and those humbuckers. For lead solos, you might want a 498 or a signiture pickup, but for blues or rhythmn guitar MAN!! I love that thing. Sadly, I don't own one. But the pre-loved finish really looks lice in person, and, like an epiphone, you aren't afraid to play it, mod it, make it yours. Atleast I wouldn't be.[/quote'] Heh... As a leftie, to even catch a whiff of a Gibson SG product starts at.....$1500 dollars. The best SG I can buy (new) under a 1000 bucks is the Iommi Signature model from Epiphone..... (Hmmm...this might have something to do with my perception as stated in the opening post...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubstar Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubstar Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 mine (LH referred to above) was $699 new, I think...some sort of weird guitar trader sale, no warranty but brand new and not a second or refurb... $859 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SGSCLWCCH/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansmitchell Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Hmmmm... Under 1000. Nice. Gisbon. Hey I still love epi's. But low end gibsons can be fun to play like there's no tomorrow, and mod, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sentry Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 mine (LH referred to above) was $699 new' date=' I think...some sort of weird guitar trader sale, no warranty but brand new and not a second or refurb... $859 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SGSCLWCCH/[/quote'] Whatever you do....DO NOT SELL THAT GUITAR. It's been md'd, and will probably be worth a good wad a change in a few years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubstar Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 I would have a hard time selling any of mine (epiphones included), even if I could suddenly afford CS models! btw, what does "md'd" mean? manufucturer discontinued? regardless, it is a nice guitar...thinking about adding a vibrola (I've got an original NOS maestro string anchor, so it would be simple enough for a tech to modify an existing RH maestro) but am wary of any tonal / playing feel changes because it is really nice now...but the odds of every owning an original maestro equipped LH are slim to none... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antwhi2001 Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Gibson have most of the bases covered now, with Baldwins, Epihones, Epihone Elitists, Gibson Fadeds, and "real" Gibsons. The biggest price overlap seems to be between Epi Elitists and Gibson Fadeds or Studios. Having said that, we don't see many Elitists in the UK anyway. I don't much like the finish on the Fadeds but they are good Gibson guitars at a more affordable price, so I think they were a welcome addition to the range. As more secondhand ones become available it'll mean more folks can afford a Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matiac Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 I'm ready for the discussion should it occur... Now THATS a sub-compact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billybob Dylan Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Are there any dealers that sell Gibson but not Epiphone or Epiphone but not Gibson? If so, I'm sure Epiphone dealers want something in the $1,000 price range to compete with Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Now THATS a sub-compact. Wrong! It's a really big chick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Wrong! It's a really big chick. Britney really has become bigger than The Bea......ooops better not mention that band here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matiac Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 I am of the personal opinion (having own(ed) both), that them Epiphones give you more bang for your buck, and as far as modding them, there's quite a few guys over at the Gibson forum that are modding theirs (Gibson) also. And construction materials aside, you just can't beat an Epiphone, it has it's strong points...and weak points, but then, so does a Gibson. Examples: Tuning: maybe it was just the one I had, but I was constantly tuning that guitar, it would always go sharp on me, the Epiphone I haven't had to tune in quite a while. Strap buttons: too small on the Gibson, noticeably larger on the Epi, thus less likely to have the strap come off, and possibly drop your guitar (constant worry with the Gibson). Plus the Epi's have a little felt pad beneath the button, the Gibson doesn't. Bling: ok, that's subjective, but I will say most Epiphones I've seen are at least as attractive, if not moreso than a Gibson, but that's just me. Overall playability: as far as that goes, and it could be I'm just used to the Epiphone, but it's easier to play than the Goldtop, the frets were too high on the Gibson, it was almost like it was scalloped, I almost brought it back because of that, took a lot of getting used to. The necks bigger on the Epiphone, by that I mean it's almost a '50's neck compared to the Goldtop, a frikkin' baseball bat! Fit and finish: The pickup surrounds on the Gibson have a small gap between them and the wood that the Epiphone doesn't have, the Epi rings are snug against the body. In conclusion, after a few subtle (some not-so-subtle) tweaks, a great guitar was made even better! Wow, deja-vu... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRizZ Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 I smell a dead horse around here... Actually' date=' that awful faded Gibson SG is cheaper than a LP Studio... $795 or something... If I were an SG guy, I'd rather have a G400... [/quote'] I have a Gibson Faded SG, so I'm bound to stick up for it! So here goes - they are sooo nice in real life! I wasn't sure about the idea of them before I got mine, but I decided to take the plunge and go for it - ordered from the States as it would cost me about £200 ($400) more to buy it here (thanks for robbing us blind Gibson!), but it is a thing of beauty! The fact that the wood isn't suffocated in nitro or anything like that means the wood can breathe better. Sure - you don't want to throw it around as it'll mark much easier than a Standard SG, but it sounds killer. But... whereas I think that this look suits the SG, and to an extent the Flying V, I think that it looks a bit lame on the Les Paul Studio Faded. I guess this is because I'm used to seeing Les Pauls look so slick and shiny that it just doesn't suit the image for me. But if I had one I'm sure I'd still love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sentry Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 I would have a hard time selling any of mine (epiphones included)' date=' even if I could suddenly afford CS models! btw, what does "md'd" mean? manufucturer discontinued? regardless, it is a nice guitar...thinking about adding a vibrola (I've got an original NOS maestro string anchor, so it would be simple enough for a tech to modify an existing RH maestro) but am wary of any tonal / playing feel changes because it is really nice now...but the odds of every owning an original maestro equipped LH are slim to none...[/quote'] Yup. Manufacturer Discontinued. They don't make 'em anymore. As for that faded, almost no-finish stuff? It's going to play nice, but I don't see how you can even think about keeping those guitars in pristine condition. It's going to pretty much be impossible... As for modding a Gibson that typically goes for 2 to 3 grand? (shakes head)...well, I suppose if people have money to burn and/or waste....just seems silly to mess with something that's supposed to be set up as best as can be from the factory. (IMHO that's what an Epiphone is for...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evol04gt Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 the elitists are the enthusiasts guitar for the non modifiers. someone that cares about the guitar more than the headstock. fadeds are awesome because they are a great alternative, lower cost, and a cool weathered look, but the finish is rather thin.... whick saves a lot of money...----- get a guitar painted and see how much that costs over rubbing some oil and dusting some satincoat.. i probably wont buy a gibson again unless its used or i start making six figures and dont immediately build a new home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 I think you're assessment is dead on. I tried a bunch of Gibson LP's at GC over the last couple years and have been very disappointed with the flaws I find in the finish. A couple years ago I bought my first EPi, on-line, and was blown away with the quality. I also messed around with all the hardware including putting in some GIbson pick-ups. I have recently bought a second Epi. Both of these guitars blow me away, I haven't touched my PRS Custom 22 in a year, want to buy it? I think Epi's are the best kept secret in the guitar world. I also think some of the Asian manufacturers are able to make a much better quality guitar than Gibson can in the US, for much less. And I'm certain Gibson is a bit flummoxed over all this as well, certainly they've noticed the higher quality of their Asain Epi's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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