Andy R Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 So I started this topic as discussion focusing on clipping a signal into distortion and what factors are involved and what pieces of the signal chain and how they interact to create an overdriven sound/tone etc... My intent is not to start an I like this pedal or that thread though the topic is not out of scope completely I would just like to keep this on a little deeper level than the "This is best ever product sort of thing" With that I will begin by saying through the years I have played with a boat load of guitar/pickup/pedal/amplifier/speaker combinations. I have also been finding myself moving away from the high gain type of distortion and getting my tone cleaner. I don't mean this in the sense that I am going from High gain boogie and seeking to get to Clean Fender twin. The following is just a reference I hear and describe. It is not a criticism of anyone's tone or playing. I visualize distortion like sand, pebbles and rocks. I hear and visualize the really highly saturated, high gain, fuzzy sound as being more sand like in tonal texture. It is like every bit of the frequency spectrum and tonal output is distorting it sounds compressed. To me this is the thrashier type of tone. So on the other end of that I also hear someone like Warren Haynes who to me has more of a pebble or gravel size type of distortion it has more of a gravel sound and you can still hear some clean frequencies coming through and sounds a lot less compressed. This is the tone/sound I am moving towards. I describe it a more of a "snarly growl" Listen to warrens tone on Bad little Doggy especially when he hits the A major. Old Eddie Van Halen had a lot of sizzle on top but also had a more of a gravel through out the frequency range and you can still hear a clean sound within it. There is also an aspect of his tone that almost has an effect like he is playing in a big cylindrical tube. Both Eddie and Warren also achieve a tone that I can only describe as "Hearing the Glass" This is just an analogy but it's almost like you can literally here the bottle of the tubes. Hendrix had a real fuzzy tone Randy Rhoads had more of a sandy to grainy type of tone. Ace or Paul ( not sure who played it) got a very cool tube ( chug) sound on the intro to "Rock and Roll" that I have always liked. Anyway as stated earlier I have been backing down and playing with less and less gain through the years and have been using lower output/ cleaner pickups. I'm pretty close to the "Tone" for me with my JTM-45 clone and using the stock Gibson 498T ( minus cover). I just stuck a 57 classic with cover in my 81 Explorer E/2 and a 490R ( minus cover) in the bridge of my US Charvel San Dimas. All are pretty consistent tonally with my amp and by that I mean I don't have any radical tonal differences now where I have to completely re-EQ everything. I used to be a big Seymour Duncan Fan especially the JB pickup but it seems like everything I have put them in lately sounds like garbage to me. I put one in my 79 Walnut E/2 Explorer and it sounds like shiza. ( although I think that might be the 300K pot causing some of the problem.) I put a Pearly Gates in my 76 Les Paul and don't care for it much either.... Anyway don't really know where i'm going with this other than I am trying to get more of a gravel distortion as opposed to sandy and am trying to get that Glassy tube sound with a little "Chug" to it. I think the Tube rectifier and KT88's in the JTM 45 are also getting me closer. I also like the gravel to be in the midrange of the tone with less distortion/gravel in the low end while avoiding a fuzzy piercing high end. In the end It should just growl and the notes of chords shouldn't all mush together. I also like to still hit the front end a little with a Tube screamer for heavier stuff but really love being able to just roll the volume down about halfway and getting a very clean kind of Fender Twin sound. I have also been playing through a 1969 Marshall 4/12 with 25 watt greenbacks but I'm thinking about trying out some higher wattage speakers. I have also found that playing around with where the feedback wire from the presence control is connected to the OHM selector switch has a lot of effect on the tone and gain. So what are your thoughts on different parts of the signal path to tweak to get more or less sandy to bigger grain type of distortion? I'm interested in pickups, magnets, pickup output, amp pre-amplifiers, speakers, etc... I think this is all very interesting and I'm sure there is a lot of knowledge and experience here to have an interesting discussion. Thanks in Advance, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenced Fred Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 You insult fuzz, you insult me Just kidding, its cool. I like fuzz because it is rough. I never understood those guys that have 5 overdrives, that all sound the same, but has little differences, not noticeable in a live setting at all. I like it for the huge difference. If you wanna change stuff, I always tweak volume knobs and tone knobs first because no modifications are required. After that, I don't have enough experience, but you drew me in with the "I hate fuzz" thing, I thought it was Steve's thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 You insult fuzz, you insult me Just kidding, its cool. I like fuzz because it is rough. I never understood those guys that have 5 overdrives, that all sound the same, but has little differences, not noticeable in a live setting at all. I like it for the huge difference. If you wanna change stuff, I always tweak volume knobs and tone knobs first because no modifications are required. After that, I don't have enough experience, but you drew me in with the "I hate fuzz" thing, I thought it was Steve's thread Ah my little ruse worked. I knew that would get me one view! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S t e v e Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 i hate fuzz, it's for girls imo...jus sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 This is really, really deep Andy. Deep and wide. If we WERE to really answer all of these questions, we just might know EVERYTHING about amps. Maybe even the meaning of life. First observation: I think that ONE aspect of what causes the "sand" vs "gravel" tone is the "speed" of the overdrive. A higher overdrive level will cause the waveform to go into an overdrive with a faster or quicker shift, creating more of the fuzz thing, while a slower one will be more of a grind, with a wider waveform that is MORE in shift. Second observation: I think the amount of mids (as well as the rest of the frequencies) has a lot to do with what we perceive. A tone with a lot of mids is going to sound a lot meaner. And, in the case of a lot of amps, when they are driven, it creates more mids as it drives. More: When an amp is driven into the grind mode, it produces tones and harmonics that were not present before, and my ears tell me they king of swirl back and forth between each other and the distortion waveform goes back and forth. I once saw a graph of a Marshall showing the even-order harmonics produced in the distortion signal (4ths) present with each note played. It essentially adds up to a more complex chord. To me, this explains why some amps (like a delicious Marshall) sounds so full with power chords, and can sound out of tune in ways when the 3rd is played in a chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Amp DNA is very important for me..... There are only a few amp makers that get that HOT brown tone.... SMF, Soldano, Marshall, Boogie and Mojave.... To me amps like Randall, Orange, Line 6 ect...ect... sound like popcorn cooking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 Amp DNA is very important for me..... There are only a few amp makers that get that HOT brown tone.... SMF, Soldano, Marshall, Boogie and Mojave.... To me amps like Randall, Orange, Line 6 ect...ect... sound like popcorn cooking Agreed... I know that Warren uses ( among other amps) a Soldano SLO 100 and he has a 68 Marshall. There seems to be something about the 68 Marshalls that is unique as A lot of players with great tone have a 68 Plexi. Warren D'Martini, Eddie, Warren and a few others.... I know they had lay down transformers, and a separate filter cap (Sub board) there is a few differences with the shared cathode or separate on the preamp I can't remember anyway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Another thing is players just don't play loud anymore.... I clearly remember walking the neighborhood in my younger days, and hear bands playing (blaring)... you just don't get that these days. You cannot get "that" tone at bedroom volumes, and it appears amp makers are trying to reproduce that "tone" at quite to moderate volumes, which fall short IMO. Then when you try and crank that amp, it sounds terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Eh, a other tone topic. People will always believe subject A will suck while subject A will sell and be adored by guitar players. The way i see it is, dont trust anyone but your self. If someone tells you this is the best amp ever, it can sound like complete **** to you. So i dont really listen to other people when it comes to amps. Guitars? Sure, a little bit less biase...because a guitar can never truly sound bad, but a amp can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riptide Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Another thing is players just don't play loud anymore.... I clearly remember walking the neighborhood in my younger days, and hear bands playing (blaring)... you just don't get that these days. You cannot get "that" tone at bedroom volumes, and it appears amp makers are trying to reproduce that "tone" at quite to moderate volumes, which fall short IMO. Then when you try and crank that amp, it sounds terrible. I agree 100%!!! But I wasn't around back then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Eh, a other tone topic. People will always believe subject A will suck while subject A will sell and be adored by guitar players. The way i see it is, dont trust anyone but your self. If someone tells you this is the best amp ever, it can sound like complete **** to you. So i dont really listen to other people when it comes to amps. Guitars? Sure, a little bit less biase...because a guitar can never truly sound bad, but a amp can. Nobody is telling anyone what to buy..... And lets be honest dem00n, I would take Andy's guidance regarding gear over yours any day of the week. And not because Andy is a better person, but because he has a long history of practical and technical experience in this area... BTW....And I've played some guitars that have sounded terrible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I agree 100%!!! But I wasn't around back then! LOL!!! Just make me feel like I need a cane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Nobody is telling anyone what to buy..... And lets be honest dem00n, I would take Andy's guidance regarding gear over yours any day of the week. And not because Andy is a better person, but because he has a long history of practical and technical experience in this area... BTW....And I've played some guitars that have sounded terrible Thats the point, if you play a bad guitar is it truly bad? No, you only played it for what 10 mins? Most people judge guitars so poorly that dont even move around the volume or tone knob. But if you wanna listen to someone else ears, go ahead. Its your life not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Thats the point, if you play a bad guitar is it truly bad? No, you only played it for what 10 mins? Most people judge guitars so poorly that dont even move around the volume or tone knob. But if you wanna listen to someone else ears, go ahead. Its your life not mine. My tone is a representation of listening to other players gear.... But these are players that play at a high level... The best advice that has been given to me has come from these musicians. You judge your guitars your way, and I'll judge them my way.... Like you stated earlier....."The way i see it is, dont trust anyone but your self." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesguitar65 Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I dunno. I really never got into fuzz than all of a sudden I like fuzz. I guess my hearing changed. I'm into the fuzz face at the momment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 My tone is a representation of listening to other players gear.... But these are players that play at a high level... The best advice that has been given to me has come from these musicians. You judge your guitars your way, and I'll judge them my way.... Like you stated earlier....."The way i see it is, dont trust anyone but your self." Exactly then... Wait...wtf is the point of this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbabig Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Exactly then... Wait...wtf is the point of this topic? I think it's about Rock and Roll, as opposed to Sand and Roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Wait...wtf is the point of this topic? It's definitely not the point you're trying to make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanH Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Adding 'fuzz' is surely no worse than using other effects to modify the signal. Being able to do weird and wonderful things with the strummed or picked notes is a big part of the advantage of having an electric guitar. If you could ask the majority of the listening public to describe what they think of as an electric guitar sound it would invariably involve a big element of distortion, delay and chorus. In fact, listen to any electric guitar sample effect on a keyboard and that's exactly what you get. Anyway, I love a cleaner hard rock tone as much as I love a heavily overdriven speed metal tone. Used well, both can sound extremely powerful be that an Angus style open chord where the picking action brings on the gain or a Mustaine-esque fifth dyad where the gain comes from a JB pup and fully cranked settings. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 This is brilliant, first decent thread in a while! I too have defined this sand, gravel and rock thing in my head although I hadn't given them names. When I was younger I used to go for the most outrageous gain. Actually, I think the world seemed more black and white and therefore I used to think in extremes. As I age my tastes change and now I'm in to that gravel sound you so cleverly describe. Recently I have been using my cheap zoom modeller on bypass (not true bypass). It has a built in head phone amp and you can adjust the output from off to loud through headphones.I have been setting it to a slightly higher output than connecting my geet strait to the amp. Then I put the Marshall tsl60 in crunch with the gain about 2 o'clock. This means I can roll the geet back to about 7 and get a large gravel sized tone but rolling up to 10 brings it to small gravel, this also brings up the mids. BTW, p 90s in a Lester and Marshall tsl60 with a 1960a cab (a bit less bassy than if I connect the 1960b bottom cab at lower impedence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 It's gonna be hard to keep this one on the road Andy. Let me catch up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Eeeesh! People! The idea wasn't about what is better or worst, good or bad who sounds good who doesn't etc... The title was a joke to bust on Fred a little.... What I was referring to in general is there a lot of different kind of overdriven sounds. I hear and represent this visually as size of granulation where the finer the grain the more compressed and fizzy (not fuzzy) the distortion is (think sand) I hear some tone as the granulation size larger and more of a growl ( think pebbles) to me the larger the grain you are hearing more of the underlying clean sound. Anyway I was hoping to discuss where and at what points in your signal chain can you manipulate the "Size" of the grain of the distortion. I have been having better luck with getting more growl "bigger grain" with my distortion by using lower output pickups and different amps etc... Just wondering if anyone had any other insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanH Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Eeeesh! People! The idea wasn't about what is better or worst, good or bad who sounds good who doesn't etc... The title was a joke to bust on Fred a little.... What I was referring to in general is there a lot of different kind of overdriven sounds. I hear and represent this visually as size of granulation where the finer the grain the more compressed and fizzy (not fuzzy) the distortion is (think sand) I hear some tone as the granulation size larger and more of a growl ( think pebbles) to me the larger the grain you are hearing more of the underlying clean sound. Anyway I was hoping to discuss where and at what points in your signal chain can you manipulate the "Size" of the grain of the distortion. I have been having better luck with getting more growl "bigger grain" with my distortion by using lower output pickups and different amps etc... Just wondering if anyone had any other insight. My earlier point alluded to the technique aspect which, IMO, is far more important than different elements within the signal chain that can be tweaked. A good player can either create the gain from the clean (like Angus) or control the 'ultra fuzz' to make it sound tight (like Mustaine.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 My earlier point alluded to the technique aspect which, IMO, is far more important than different elements within the signal chain that can be tweaked. A good player can either create the gain from the clean (like Angus) or control the 'ultra fuzz' to make it sound tight (like Mustaine.) I wasn't really referring to you. I also get what your saying but Angus and Dave have two completely different sounds and tones and have rigs that are setup to optimize the tone they are going for. Sorry but Dave isn't going to get his tone and gain from Angus's "Let There Be Rock" Rig regardless of his technique. I can change the perceived gain on my amps purely by picking technique especially my JTM 45 as it is very dynamic responsive even more so than my 73 100 Watt Super Leads. Regardless you can only do so much with technique before you have to begin tweaking other elements in you signal path to get the type of gain/tone etc... you are going for. Again the Fuzz reference was a joke. David Gilmour is probably my favorite guitarist and definitely has an awesome tone and guess what he uses?????...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I know what I like in an amp but I'm not an expert in what makes them sound that way so I'll but out of that part of the debate. What I can comment on are pickups. Just to keep things simple I'll limit this to the coils and magnets of a Gibson style humbucker only. The standard is the late 50s PAF humbucker which features Alnico 5 magnet, 5000 turns of 42GA plain enamel magnet wire. DC resistance of 7K Coil Matching: If these coils were perfectly matched they would have zero noise and a very clear flat sound. If we mismatch them slightly we start to notice a richer and fuller sound with more overtones. This is because when we start to cancel hum we also cancel some of the signal. As we start to mismatch the coils a bit the frequency response of the coils are no longer perfect mirror images of each other. This means when we over lay them there are fewer places where the frequencies match up so there is less signal cancellation. However if we mismatch the coils too far then the 60 cycle hum (if you're in the USA) starts to creep back into the signal. Now... lets say we want to passively boost the output of out pickup. There are two ways to do this. One is by using a stronger magnetic field. The other is by wrapping more wire around the bobbin. Coil Size: First let's look at the coil size. One of the first guys to really over wind a Gibson Humbucker was Seymour Duncan. He put this pickup in the bridge position of a Les Paul for Jeff Beck and history was made. He did this by putting 7000 turns of 43ga wire on each bobbin. This gave the bridge pickup a lot more output. But everything has a price. The price for the gain in output was a loss of high frequency. Some might call it a "darker" tone. This is just how it goes. Increasing output by adding wire to the bobbin results in a loss of highs. The more wire you add... the darker (some say muddier) it sounds. Magnetic Field Power: So how do we boost output without making things too muddy? Well, you can get a stronger magnet. Replacing the Alnico 5 magnet with a more powerful Ceramic magnet will boost output and can really spike high frequency response. Some say this is a brighter sound (some call it icepick through the head). The tonal change has nothing at all to do with what the magnet is made of. It's just a matter of power and density of the magnetic field. The best designs try to balance these two aspects of pickup design. While I have made many of them I have found that I'm not a huge fan of super high gain humbuckers for my personal guitars. I think a neck humbucker with an Alnico 5 magnet and a coil set that uses a a matched pair of coils around 4500 turns of 42ga and a bridge pickup using one coil with 5700 turns and the other with 6700 turns of 43ga give me enough punch and grit but it clean up nice it I want it too. But if you then run that output through a 20 foot cable and 5 or 6 unbuffered stomp boxes you will have killed all those carefully balanced highs and upper mids your pickups made so... it's all small parts of the big picture. It all adds up. Time for breakfast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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