cookieman15061 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 OK gang lets look at this, first I love the fact there are still some "American Companies". I have spent a little time researching this company and the only American art of our guitars is the labor putting it together. If Gibson is innocent then far be it; but that is to be decided by the courts but lets look at the publicly available information on the internet Gibson Guitar sources mahogany from community-managed forests in the Rio Plátano and Maya Biosphere Reserves, where tropical forest areas have been set aside by the Honduran and Guatemalan governments, respectively, to conserve their unique natural and cultural heritage. Not American wood Gibson Guitar purchases the rosewood for our fret boards from India A short bit of online research revealed that the pots on the circuit board in the newer guitars are designed and made by Bourns, which its website indicates are manufactured in Taiwan. The Korean Kluson Tuners are Imported. I have not been able to locate the MFG for the other metal parts but since they are the same as Epiphone parts, need I say more. So for all you flag waving individuals about good ole Gibson the only American part is it is Made in USA, with parts that came from over seas. Now we wonder why Gibson is in trouble again. Yup this guitar is as American as my American Dodge Ramcharger made in Mexico. So lets continue being on Henry's side since he would never intentionally lie or try to deceive us. Good ole Indian, Korean, Honduran and some chinese parts also are on our good ole Flag waving American guitars. Oh there is someone laughing its Henry and crew every time they get on the soap box saying its a "Good Ole American Guitar". I'm not so sure the issue is were the parts are manufactured as that's a different discussion. This is however about an American owned business being targeted and no charges being brought against them. Shutting down any business for a few days makes it difficult on any company but combine that with the awful floods and a smaller company may have called it quits. This government is faced with the daunting task of " bringing this country back from the brink" as our president is fond of saying. Confiscating guitar parts while at the same time supplying guns to Mexican drug gangs does seem odd but surely this administration knows what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Clean up on isle 9 I'll be deleting post in a moment. Not to be rude but is it really that difficult to comment without having to be overly political? This subject matter is really not that difficult to get around without being overly blatant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Clean up on isle 9 I'll be deleting post in a moment. Not to be rude but is it really that difficult to comment without having to be overly political? This subject matter is really not that difficult to get around without being overly blatant I am really not trying to be political but in essence the whole thread revolves around Henry's statements about the raids that are seemingly based on policy implementation itself by an administration that is overtly hostile to business. Obviously Henry doesn't have his head buried in the sand, because if Gibson 's lawyers were doing their jobs a motion for discovery was already filed and the govt. is required to produce basis for legal action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Just keep the subject matter centered around the Gibson situation..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Just keep the subject matter centered around the Gibson situation..... I'm fine with that Duane , but sometimes a little historical context, makes the illustration more comprehensible for the unenlightened. But , then again I am at fault for the assumption that some folks want to be enlightened. Maybe Henry would be better suited to take his factories and Craftsmen to some tropical paradise say..... Costa Rico, Ecuador, Belize, where the uneven implementation of laws won't hinder the production of the guitars we all love so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Maybe Henry would be better suited...... Maybe we would be better suited to let Mr. HJ speak for what is best suited for Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Actually as far as guitar construction is concerned, my understanding is that importing woods has been part of fine musical instrument construction in the US and Europe for ages. We've never had that much rosewood or mahogany in the US. I suppose we might have stocked up on cedar or whatever, I dunno. Ebony certainly is not a North American tree product. But as far as a lotta metals and such... remember the thread we had here on strings and it turns out most string wire comes from a single company? We've had far more international trade for far longer than most of us realize. As I recall the Koreans had potatoes imported within less than 20 years after the Spanish "discovered" them in South America, for example. Tin from the UK went all over the then-known world perhaps as early as in the bronze age. I'll wager American gold was used for European-made jewelry for well over 150 years. North American lumber has been exported for ages. Raw materials and even "parts" for manufacturing have been traded and used for as long as we have any written records. When, however, we're apparently going to play games internationally over how much processing a board requires before it's "legal" for export for one country and how the second country defines law in the first country ... sheesh. That's a new wrinkle. I guess I don't get that concerned about tuners made in Korea as long as they're of a good quality. I could see Korean manufacturing go from lousy little "stuff" to exceptional quality from my trips there in the 80s and 90s. Japanese products were laughed at after WWII on grounds that "if you scrape the paint, you can see which brand of beer can they used." To me that's why American craftsmen and corporations have to be that much better or that much more efficient. It looks to me, the guy who dislikes "big," that Gibson is probably about the right size company for high quality and sufficient production to compete. Which is, again, what makes one wonder why they're the target of somebody in government. Duane... "politics" need not be of the national partisan variety, but it's part of the world of every group of humans, including a 5-piece band, as I think you know. My personal guess is that there are some "politics" involved in this one in whatever agencies are involved in going after Gibson. "Party" likely is involved in the sense of a group who for whatever reason figures they have just enough to make enough stick in a courtroom to make life Aich, Eee, double toothpick difficult for Gibson regardless whether it might be enough to slam-bang win a jury trial, either civil or criminal. Heaven knows the motivation, but I can see it now: "Okay, we didn't get enough for a good case last time, what can we find new..." Functionally I've seen that happen far more frequently than the public at large might want to know. Sometimes I think it's been in good cause, sometimes... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Please stop Mr. bluz. You're scaring dem00n. It is fine to speculate, but until we hear all sides, all points are moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Please stop Mr. bluz. You're scaring dem00n. It is fine to speculate, but until we hear all sides, all points are moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I'm fine with that Duane , but sometimes a little historical context, makes the illustration more comprehensible for the unenlightened. ..... Ouch. I certainly hope I'm not getting lumped into the comprehension challenged unenlightened category. Perhaps there's someone who feels their knowledge and opinions are better than everyone else's running the FnW investigation into Gibson. In the words of Joe Walsh - "You can't argue with a sick mind." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Please stop Mr. bluz. You're scaring dem00n. It is fine to speculate, but until we hear all sides, all points are moot. How did you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 No I wouldn't assume that you are not enlightened or that my opinion is superior to anyone else's . What I do know is that probably the most intelligent of the founding fathers ( Thomas Jfferson ) told us to always question authority and that government must shackled by the chains of the Constitution . If we take everything at face value as it is told to us, eventually everything of value in our culture will gone due to apathy and ignorance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Another interview with HJ. Here's the latest from Henry J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinh Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 . If you don't believe that this administration would target certain American businesses than you're as naive as they come. I guess I am then....... This used to be a good place to discuss guitars, not a vehicle to publicise the user's political beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieman15061 Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I guess I am then....... This used to be a good place to discuss guitars, not a vehicle to publicise the user's political beliefs. It's still a good place to discuss guitars. What's your point? Thousands of threads to pick from. Start one of your own. That would be cool! Oh and publicize got a z in it. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Again, let's assume what HenryJ is saying is absolute truth: It's a horrid situation. Let's assume what he is saying is an absolute lie: He'll be quoted in court to his detriment and for him it would be an even worse situation. But Martin, again, I don't think it's "political" in a partisan sense to suggest that a government agency at any level would get a burr under its saddle against an individual or corporation. I hate to say this, but I've seen it. In one case, it never really hit the media until an entire industry had been gone for nearly 20 years and suddenly it hit some journalists that gee, "we" didn't see it happen. I saw it; wrote about it. Got either ignored or told I was just a tool of business. It's a long, long sad story I'll relate off forum if you wish. Once something is started, using delay tactics can achieve the desired end even if a case is eventually tossed from a courtroom or regulatory board. I've seen both happen by pressing legal delaying tactics. I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, but I've seen it. Somebody in a government agency or two might be absolutely convinced they have a case. I've seen that even in criminal cases where a prosecutor kept up a case that even law enforcement felt was unwarranted. I knew and was friends with the guy. He was honest as the day is long, but he was convinced he was right and went ahead until he almost literally dropped dead in front of the judge's bench. Within weeks of his demise the major felony case was dropped. It ain't "politics," it's people. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Gibson Raid, 2011 According to this, I believe the issue centers around fraudulently identified wood that would be legal to import or export if it was what it said it was. In addition to confiscating evidence that was to match those shipments of fraudulently identified wood, any computers that might contain evidence that Gibson was aware of the fraudulently identified wood were also confiscated, if my interpretation of that document is correct after a quick scan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl00dsm0k3 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 its wood whats so illegal about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Oh who cares... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAS44 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 its wood whats so illegal about it Certain species of trees are over-harvested/logged, leaving the population of said species dangerously low (Brazilian Rosewood is a common example, it was desired for it's tonal qualities and beauty). Same concept as an endangered animal, just applied to a leafy medium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Gibson Raid, 2011 According to this, I believe the issue centers around fraudulently identified wood that would be legal to import or export if it was what it said it was. In addition to confiscating evidence that was to match those shipments of fraudulently identified wood, any computers that might contain evidence that Gibson was aware of the fraudulently identified wood were also confiscated, if my interpretation of that document is correct after a quick scan. That was a good read, looks like the good old trick of declaring something slightly different that what it is. Still, how are all other manufacturers getting their Indian Rosewood and Ebony if it is illegal to import it in such way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Gibson Raid, 2011 According to this, I believe the issue centers around fraudulently identified wood that would be legal to import or export if it was what it said it was. In addition to confiscating evidence that was to match those shipments of fraudulently identified wood, any computers that might contain evidence that Gibson was aware of the fraudulently identified wood were also confiscated, if my interpretation of that document is correct after a quick scan. Good stuff there. THAT is what we want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Having read the affidavit for the warrant (thanks ziggy)it raises for me some VERY troubling questions. I am wondering how the judge could have signed it. Either he didn't read it to it's full understanding, or he was going on what someone represented to him what it all meant, or the judge knows more than what was presented to him in that request to justify it. I also wonder if he considered the damage and consequences to Gibson. Either way, I think the judge should have said "sorry, you don't have enough here-put more in it or find more". Or, more to the point, "Go find something worthwhile to do". I know it is hard when you want to be cooperative, but he is a JUDGE. I think we should be able to trust them to be fair to the other side when they are not present or aware. If the evidence presented by Mr. Rayfeild (the Fish and wildlife "special agent") actually suggest anything, it more so suggest all parties involved are DISCLOSING info rather than hiding anything. The wood was not hidden-it was right where the paperwork said it would be (some investigation work, huh?) There OBVIOUSLY was no attempt by anyone to misrepresent anything on paper as to what it was, regardless of how correctly or incorrectly the paperwork may have been filled out. This motion for a search warrant is either someone stretching real far to find some wrong on Gibson's part to bring them down or the judge/investigators are stretching real far to be able to search without having to show just cause. Either way, it is far from the America they taught me this was when I was a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieman15061 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Having read the affidavit for the warrant (thanks ziggy)it raises for me some VERY troubling questions. I am wondering how the judge could have signed it. Either he didn't read it to it's full understanding, or he was going on what someone represented to him what it all meant, or the judge knows more than what was presented to him in that request to justify it. I also wonder if he considered the damage and consequences to Gibson. Either way, I think the judge should have said "sorry, you don't have enough here-put more in it or find more". Or, more to the point, "Go find something worthwhile to do". I know it is hard when you want to be cooperative, but he is a JUDGE. I think we should be able to trust them to be fair to the other side when they are not present or aware. If the evidence presented by Mr. Rayfeild (the Fish and wildlife "special agent") actually suggest anything, it more so suggest all parties involved are DISCLOSING info rather than hiding anything. The wood was not hidden-it was right where the paperwork said it would be (some investigation work, huh?) There OBVIOUSLY was no attempt by anyone to misrepresent anything on paper as to what it was, regardless of how correctly or incorrectly the paperwork may have been filled out. This motion for a search warrant is either someone stretching real far to find some wrong on Gibson's part to bring them down or the judge/investigators are stretching real far to be able to search without having to show just cause. Either way, it is far from the America they taught me this was when I was a child. Oh stein, you right wing conspiracy nut job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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