MattUK Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I have a couple of Gibson les Pauls. My latest acquisition is a Studio 50's Tribute described as being a mahogany back on the invoice and on the Gibson website. A local wood expert has told me that it is made from Sapele and not mahogany. Which is it made from ? If Sapele, is it ethical to call it mahogany and sell a guitar described as being mahogany ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat-o-steve Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I have an acoustic made with sapele back and sides, and the grain looks alot different than the so called "mahogany" on my Gibson's. So I will step up and say that I believe Gibson is indeed using mahogany. Mahogany comes in many different weights and densities though. Snap a picture of you guitar's back, showing the grain in detail....we here on the forum can help you better with pics :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I've read about Sapele being used in the manufacture of guitars for decades but have never heard of it being used by the Gibson company. Perhaps, with the way mahogany is being protected, Gibson has been trying to find something which might be used in its place. Sapele has always had a good reputation as a 'tone-wood'. Just for the sake of interest, here is part of the description of Sapele from the Wiki site; "...The commercially important wood is reminiscent of mahogany, with a distinctive figure, typically applied where figure is important......Among its more exotic uses is that in guitar manufacturing, in the top, back and sides of acoustic guitar bodies as well as the tops of electric guitar bodies, for example by well known guitar manufacturers such as Ibanez (Japan/USA), Taylor (USA), Martin (USA), Larivee (Canada) and Esteve (Spain).......Sapele is also used for the neck piece of ukuleles, due to its pleasant aesthetic quality, by such manufacturers as the Hawaiian companies Kamaka and Koaloha. Late in the 90s, it started to be used as a board for Basque percussion instruments txalaparta, on the strength of the livelier quality of the sound..." P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattUK Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 I was reading on other forums that Sapele is well known as African Mahogany and would be passed off as mahogany. Also with rising demand for US Mahogany and 60 to 90 years to grow a tree many manufacturers who use African Mahogany are coming clean and now calling it Sapele rather than mahogany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I was reading on other forums that Sapele is well known as African Mahogany and would be passed off as mahogany. Also with rising demand for US Mahogany and 60 to 90 years to grow a tree many manufacturers who use African Mahogany are coming clean and now calling it Sapele rather than mahogany. Actually, if you had a sapele and a mahogany guitar side-by-side, you would be able to see the difference immediately, even if you were not a wood connoisseur. Sapele's grain is much more uniform, and the wood had marked dark striations, or "ribbons". Owing to the way the grain structure is interlaced, the wood has more "depth" and is "glassier" than South American mahogany. Highly-figured variants exist, and are extremely rare and costly. I have a Taylor NS34ce made from solid sapele. It is a beautiful instrument in terms of both sight and sound, and I actually prefer it in a nylon-string guitar to either rosewood or mahogany. I have a Jacaranda guitar (in need of repair), and I would put the Taylor in the same tonal category as it was in its heyday: swift-speaking, clear and articulate, louder than mahogany, yet warm, and with good resonance (although less so than solid rosewood of good quality). Nothing wrong with sapele, in my books, except that I think it should be marketed as such, and NOT as "African Mahogany". it is, by the way, a plentiful and sustainable wood, and the trees grow very large and straight in a relatively short time-frame. Because of the grain structure of the wood, it is very difficult to work cleanly (it wants to tear and shred), and dulls cutting tools quite quickly. That is one of the main reasons production guitar-makers still prefer to use mahogany: it is a joy to work with, compared to sapele. I happen to enjoy its godlike cedar-like aroma, but it causes allergic reactions in some who work with the wood. I have never heard of a player reaction. Better a good sapele than a second-rate mahogany, IMO. My $0.02/FWIW J/W [PS: I have never seen a sapele Gibson guitar passed off for mahogany ... as a matter of fact, I have never even heard of Gibson using this wood. I once owned a solid bubinga Gibson acoustic, which I did not like very much.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattUK Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 well firstly I'd point out that this is a Les Paul forum thread. So Jellywheat your preference to sapele on a nylon strung acoustic is a little irrelevent and are you happy to make do with something that may not be what it seems. People who buy a Les Paul guitar expect it to follow the traddition of the original design and if the website blurb on this particular model states 'mahogany' just like it states 'mahogany' on some expensive 59 re-issue model then it should be made of 'mahogany' and not sapele. Gibson guitars are now very expensive in Europe due to the Eurozone financial crisis and resulting exchange rates. Gibson themseleves must be suffering poor sales in this region and have responded by issueing quite a range of cheaper models including the Studio 50's Tribute. On the surface the 50's Tribute is sold and marketed as a 'real Les Paul' but without the expensive binding and finishing. When you look at the model's specs on the Gibson website it has the same bridge and tailpiece and other hardware adournments as the Les Paul Standard at more than twice the price. When you actually inspect the guitar the hardware is not what it seems. The bridge is a cheap AP1 ? piece using 5mm not 4mm posts and what looks like pre-cut saddles for example. Not Gibson parts you can buy on Gibson cards are they ? If they do this then it is conceivable that there are shortcomings in the specifications of the woods used in making the guitar body and neck ie using sapele instead of mahogany. Maybe they thought that it is an acceptable to call African mahogany which is sapele, mahogany! The latest spec of the 50's tribute includes a 'dark back' - the whole back of the guitar is painted black or black stained. Is this so they can hide the wood grain/type or maybe hide the number of thin planks they have glued together to make the body. I'm glad mine is a natural wood finish as these dark backs look like they have been tarmac'd like a road. They have now changed the spec to a baked maple fingerboard on the latest 50's tribute, instead of rosewood although thankfully the spec of mine stated rosewood and this is indeed what it appears to be! As far as the guitar it plays ok and sounds good - I'm just feeling a little like I've been duped. PS never seen Gibson raided by FBI before either - there is no smoke without fire ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Yeah, but Gibson states: "Specifications subject to change, without notice," at any time! So...??? They've done, just that, for as long as I have been looking at, and buying their products. Some 50 years, now. You might as well get used to it, like it, or not. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Well, Matt, I thank you for the reading and relevancy lessons. You clearly have your own independent source of acceptable answers, so I'll just shuffle on off, if you don't mind. J/W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 well firstly I'd point out that this is a Les Paul forum thread. So Jellywheat your preference to sapele on a nylon strung acoustic is a little irrelevent and are you happy to make do with something that may not be what it seems. ...... I find your comments and attitude annoying noob. I'd like to point out that your allegation of sapele use is unsubstantiated. I see there was no mention the credentials of your so called " local wood expert". Members are free to express their thoughts, including you. However MattUK, your preference as to how members should be commenting is irrelevant unless you're a mod or an admin. You needn't bother commenting back, I've blocked your comments and messages to prevent further annoyances. . B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Ya know something, BigKahune... I'm going to follow suit. There are just too many smart, reasonable, and easy-going people to converse with in these Forums. Why let one guy with an attitude pee in the coffeepot? Good idea! J/W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 People who buy a Les Paul guitar expect it to follow the traddition of the original design... No; they don't. The "original design" of the Les Paul was, due to a design/manufacturing fault, practically un-playable. It was re-designed almost immediately after the first batch hit the stores. Even after this design fault was corrected this new, improved, version of the "original design" was in production for less than two years befor it was improved further. The Les Paul has been evolving pretty much constantly ever since it first appeared and even the most popular version has been changed, fundamentally, literally dozens of times. "People who buy a Les Paul guitar" do so for many different reasons. Not everyone wants a replica of the 1959 'regular' model. To assume otherwise would be both foolish and arrogant. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muse Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 noyhing wrong with sapelle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If you post a pic, somebody can help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angellus Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 well firstly I'd point out that this is a Les Paul forum thread. So Jellywheat your preference to sapele on a nylon strung acoustic is a little irrelevent and are you happy to make do with something that may not be what it seems. People who buy a Les Paul guitar expect it to follow the traddition of the original design and if the website blurb on this particular model states 'mahogany' just like it states 'mahogany' on some expensive 59 re-issue model then it should be made of 'mahogany' and not sapele. Gibson guitars are now very expensive in Europe due to the Eurozone financial crisis and resulting exchange rates. Gibson themseleves must be suffering poor sales in this region and have responded by issueing quite a range of cheaper models including the Studio 50's Tribute. On the surface the 50's Tribute is sold and marketed as a 'real Les Paul' but without the expensive binding and finishing. When you look at the model's specs on the Gibson website it has the same bridge and tailpiece and other hardware adournments as the Les Paul Standard at more than twice the price. When you actually inspect the guitar the hardware is not what it seems. The bridge is a cheap AP1 ? piece using 5mm not 4mm posts and what looks like pre-cut saddles for example. Not Gibson parts you can buy on Gibson cards are they ? If they do this then it is conceivable that there are shortcomings in the specifications of the woods used in making the guitar body and neck ie using sapele instead of mahogany. Maybe they thought that it is an acceptable to call African mahogany which is sapele, mahogany! The latest spec of the 50's tribute includes a 'dark back' - the whole back of the guitar is painted black or black stained. Is this so they can hide the wood grain/type or maybe hide the number of thin planks they have glued together to make the body. I'm glad mine is a natural wood finish as these dark backs look like they have been tarmac'd like a road. They have now changed the spec to a baked maple fingerboard on the latest 50's tribute, instead of rosewood although thankfully the spec of mine stated rosewood and this is indeed what it appears to be! As far as the guitar it plays ok and sounds good - I'm just feeling a little like I've been duped. PS never seen Gibson raided by FBI before either - there is no smoke without fire ! Dude your giving us Brits a bad name and you have not a clue what your talking about. all that up there ^ was Garbage. if you still have the receipt, take that along with the guitar back to the shop and buy a non Gibson brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Pix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Just for the record, Angellus... Brits are great people. But they don't have a monopoly on a$$holes: every nation, race, and tribe seems to have plenty of their own! LOL Have a great day! J/W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angellus Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Just for the record, Angellus... Brits are great people. But they don't have a monopoly on a$holes: every nation, race, and tribe seems to have plenty of their own! LOL Have a great day! J/W agreed. I've just never encountered one so obvious you too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geckobaldy Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Perhaps a member of the Gibson Customer Services Team could put this one to bed pls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 well firstly I'd point out that this is a Les Paul forum thread. So Jellywheat your preference to sapele on a nylon strung acoustic is a little irrelevent and are you happy to make do with something that may not be what it seems. People who buy a Les Paul guitar expect it to follow the traddition of the original design and if the website blurb on this particular model states 'mahogany' just like it states 'mahogany' on some expensive 59 re-issue model then it should be made of 'mahogany' and not sapele. Gibson guitars are now very expensive in Europe due to the Eurozone financial crisis and resulting exchange rates. Gibson themseleves must be suffering poor sales in this region and have responded by issueing quite a range of cheaper models including the Studio 50's Tribute. On the surface the 50's Tribute is sold and marketed as a 'real Les Paul' but without the expensive binding and finishing. When you look at the model's specs on the Gibson website it has the same bridge and tailpiece and other hardware adournments as the Les Paul Standard at more than twice the price. When you actually inspect the guitar the hardware is not what it seems. The bridge is a cheap AP1 ? piece using 5mm not 4mm posts and what looks like pre-cut saddles for example. Not Gibson parts you can buy on Gibson cards are they ? If they do this then it is conceivable that there are shortcomings in the specifications of the woods used in making the guitar body and neck ie using sapele instead of mahogany. Maybe they thought that it is an acceptable to call African mahogany which is sapele, mahogany! The latest spec of the 50's tribute includes a 'dark back' - the whole back of the guitar is painted black or black stained. Is this so they can hide the wood grain/type or maybe hide the number of thin planks they have glued together to make the body. I'm glad mine is a natural wood finish as these dark backs look like they have been tarmac'd like a road. They have now changed the spec to a baked maple fingerboard on the latest 50's tribute, instead of rosewood although thankfully the spec of mine stated rosewood and this is indeed what it appears to be! As far as the guitar it plays ok and sounds good - I'm just feeling a little like I've been duped. PS never seen Gibson raided by FBI before either - there is no smoke without fire ! I think your post falls into the buyer beware category, it's your own responsibility as the buyer to inspect the guitar. If you find differences in the specs before you buy the guitar and decide to buy it anyway don't blame the manufacturer later when you decide you're not happy about it. As for the wood used in the guitar put up a picture of it, it's pretty easy to see the difference between sapele and mahogany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattUK Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 Pix? I'll add a pic of the grain pattern shortly, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattUK Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 This is the woodgrain what do you think Mahogany, Sapele or what ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Looks like wood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyWheat Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Some of the many presentations of South American mahogany http://www.thewoodexplorer.com/maindata/we1125.html ... and of sapelehttp://www.thewoodexplorer.com/maindata/we470.html FYI J/W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 There are LOTS of different Mahogany, (and different Sapele as well). But to me, that looks like the Mahogany that Gibson uses on the LP, although a little more flame than usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 If you look at a sapele back on this Taylor and compare it to the tropical mahogany (or South American mahogany like what JellyWheat said) back on the next Taylor you can see the body on your Les Paul looks like the South American mahogany. Sapele Mahogany But if all else fails and you're still not satisfied, take it back to where you bought it from and get their opinion and take it from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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