Guest farnsbarns Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 On an interesting side note:- The Wood-winders are at it too. My father finds it hilarious that there is so much magic and mumbo jumbo in clarinet mouthpieces, materials, bore tapers and the like. There is a current clarinet maker who is highly revered, His clarinets are said to have a bore taper that's been finely adjusted over many years of experience, however, during my fathers experiments he discovered it just so happens that his clarinets have a bore taper that exactly matches a #2 morse taper reamer bit, coincidence? well, no, actually, my father found a picture of this chap at work and sure enough, there is a #2 morse taper reamer bit in his tool as he makes the bore. My father has now taken to making his own mouthpieces as he he discovered he can by the cheapest ones, reface them, do some fettling on the inside, add a baffle that he makes of Araldite (strong, 2 part epoxy) and shapes when it's dry. Now my fathers mouthpieces are sought after but he wont make you one unless you are a friend worthy of an afternoons work as a favour and he wont charge either. It is worth knowing that aside from the above, my father is considered THE definitive clarinet player in the New Orleans jazz world, taught the New Orleans ways by Pollo (Paul) Barns in the 50s. He knows what he is talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 That's a pretty cool study. I love "Emperor's Clothes" stories. I hope the violinist guys didn't feel too bad when they found out they couldn't tell the difference. The obvious flaw in the study is the perfume thing, but, hey, they're musicians, not scientists. Er maybe they were scientists. I forgot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Apropos of nothing... Who digs the plastic saxophones played by Charlie Parker? And the mostly plastic sousaphones currently in vogue?.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57classic Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Great post Matt. As I started reading I immediately thought of the wine tasting analogy. Over the past 35 or so years I've had numerous drams of Scotch including different vintages, bottlings and from different distilleries. Now, I don't claim to have an expert pallet or nose but I do know what I enjoy and what I don't. Many times I've done unscientific comparisons of some of my favorite amber spirits and I am almost never able to identify which is which, especially if they are from the same region. My preferences tend to be roughly the same whether or not I know what the distillate is and I can usually tell an expensive one from one that isn't. On the issues of guitars - having played something less than 10 acoustic guitars with Brazilian b & s, I haven't thought any were standout instruments. In fact, I much preferred EIR to any of the examples I tried. I'd expect there is some basis of fact to the mystique of Brazilian but I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing that magic. Perhaps it's my pedestrian skills that don't allow it to surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 ...Many times I've done unscientific comparisons of some of my favorite amber spirits and I am almost never able to identify which is which, especially if they are from the same region.... Going slightly off-topic but I had an interesting Xmas present a few years back when my brother gave me a commercially available 'Whisky-tasting' kit. Inside there were four small(ish), numbered (but un-labelled) bottles containing fine, typical examples of a Lowland; a Highland; a Speyside and an Island single-malt whisky. The task, needless to say, is to identify which is which purely on their respective tastes. There is a note saying which is which and there is enough for half-a-dozen or so to enjoy the experience. I'd recommend it to any whisky-lover! P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShredAstaire Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Matt you are such a **** disturber lol!! Love it...nice article...i tend to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 LOL I think if people can truly tell a difference, it is certainly a very, very small minority. Perhaps a possible reason people don't want to come clean and admit they cannot tell a difference is because they feel it somehow inadvertently shows they are very unmusical and haven't 'an ear'. In that sense studies such as these are in a sense comforting, as they show that is not the case! Matt I think we ALL are like sheep in a lot of ways, in that we may tend to believe what the "experts" say should be. And I think that works both ways, in believing a difference is there or it isn't, "experts" being wrong or right. I suggest that it is not a minority that can tell the difference, but rather a minority that can IDENTIFY the difference. I think in most cases, it isn't a matter of having super-ears, but a matter of practice. And it can be taught and learned. Let me explain: As a musician, I expect you can pick out intervals-you can tell when a fifth has been played. I expect you can identify a natural 7th chord from a major or minor just by hearing it. These are things the average person can hear, but probably couldn't tell you what they were. The reason YOU can tell is because you practiced the hearing of it, and you USE these skills. Now contrast that by considering an audio engineer: he can likely be able to easily identify the difference between a bass note of different frequencies, and maybe even identify the frequency. Certainly, if he played you 2 treble frequencies and asked you to pick out which one was 7khz and 12 khz you could tell, but it would take practice to be able to guess what frequencies were present. Now, if you were recording a concert with multiple musicians, I would expect you to cork-sniff the notes and the harmonies, or aspects of the performance. I would expect the audio engineer to cork-sniff his equipment and mic placement. In the same way, I would expect the builders of instruments to be able to cork-sniff the materials and construction. A LUTHIER should maybe be able to identify the effects of different woods, weights, ect. by training his ear to identify what is what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Well. I'll throw my hat into the ring. I've commented before on this subject. If you were sat down, blindfolded and handed an original 59 Les Paul, then, say an old standard. Then a new one with the same profile neck. Then a new Custom shop Les Paul. All set up by the same luthier. Would you be able to tell the difference? I think not. When I go into a guitar store and see a Traditional for £1700 and a Custom shop for 5k I always stare at them and see no difference. They're just wood and I will not have it that hand made is better than machine. It's all down to the set up of the neck. The bs I read on this forum about pups amazes me. Unless you play clean in clinical conditions any pup can be matched by adjusting the amp and by the player. The bottom line is..It's really in the mind. A clean car drives better than a dirty one. If you're happy with your set up you'll play better. Full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 I think we ALL are like sheep in a lot of ways, in that we may tend to believe what the "experts" say should be. And I think that works both ways, in believing a difference is there or it isn't, "experts" being wrong or right. I suggest that it is not a minority that can tell the difference, but rather a minority that can IDENTIFY the difference. I think in most cases, it isn't a matter of having super-ears, but a matter of practice. And it can be taught and learned. Let me explain: As a musician, I expect you can pick out intervals-you can tell when a fifth has been played. I expect you can identify a natural 7th chord from a major or minor just by hearing it. These are things the average person can hear, but probably couldn't tell you what they were. The reason YOU can tell is because you practiced the hearing of it, and you USE these skills. Now contrast that by considering an audio engineer: he can likely be able to easily identify the difference between a bass note of different frequencies, and maybe even identify the frequency. Certainly, if he played you 2 treble frequencies and asked you to pick out which one was 7khz and 12 khz you could tell, but it would take practice to be able to guess what frequencies were present. Now, if you were recording a concert with multiple musicians, I would expect you to cork-sniff the notes and the harmonies, or aspects of the performance. I would expect the audio engineer to cork-sniff his equipment and mic placement. In the same way, I would expect the builders of instruments to be able to cork-sniff the materials and construction. A LUTHIER should maybe be able to identify the effects of different woods, weights, ect. by training his ear to identify what is what. There is the learning the correct name of something to put to something, (like in your example with the chord or interval etc), then there is also how good a person's natural ear is. That IMHO, cannot be taught - it is either there or it is not. Yes, I agree, any person's ear through training and determination can be built upon, much like someone can also improve their IQ. However, as with an exceptionally high IQ, an excellent ear is something not many people have. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 The bs I read on this forum about pups amazes me. Unless you play clean in clinical conditions any pup can be matched by adjusting the amp and by the player. The bottom line is..It's really in the mind You are a brave man LOL - I do agree though! If someone wishes their electric guitar had say more of a bass timbre, turn up the bloody bass on the amp! It is an electric guitar; unless you play it ultra clean, the amp, effects and like you say the player, make a huge difference! LOL Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 .....If you were sat down, blindfolded and handed an original 59 Les Paul, then, say an old standard. Then a new one with the same profile neck. Then a new Custom shop Les Paul. All set up by the same luthier. Would you be able to tell the difference? I think not. The bs I read on this forum about pups amazes me. Unless you play clean in clinical conditions any pup can be matched by adjusting the amp and by the player. I agree. Sort of...... I don't know for certain but I suspect I would hear differences assuming they all had their standard electrics (for example, each of my LPs sound different to the others). I doubt very much whether I could tell which was which, however; and I doubt even more my ability to select the '59 from the group as I have had absolutely no first-hand experience of the model! And as to which one sounded 'The Best'? You must be kidding! We all have different ideas as to what we expect a LP to sound like. Each guitar in that group would sound 'The Best' to different people. And the p-ups... A mate and self-confessed ceramic p-up hater was around a while back and commented on how wonderful my ceramic-pup-equipped Les Paul sounded... IMHO the choice of amp used plays a far more important role in describing the final tone than whatever p-up is fitted in your Lester. puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 If you distort the sound the pup is pointless. I do believe that Joe Satriani uses low output pups now. It's in the neck. I bought an Ibanez SA160 last year for £117. The neck is fantastic. It doesn't stay in tune very well. But it's in my lounge and I pick it up every night and play it. I have a Les Paul under my footstool and I never play it. I'm going to take them both to my luthier and have him crown the frets to make it feel like the Ibanez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Matt... One forum note: "Parkening writes in his book that Segovia told him that a guitar was only good for five years. After that it was worn out. Segovia was so rough on his guitars that that may have been true for him. I don't think any of the Torres could have stood up to his playing. Parkening played one of Segovia's 'old' guitars during his Segovia Tribute and I understand from those who heard the performances the sound was beautiful...almost transforming, definitly not worn out. I haven't heard of Parkening changing his guitars every five years." Another note... Apparently even the first Hauser had some physical problems after a while, although the German luthier was closer to what Segovia wanted in an instrument. Supposedly Ramirez got hold of it and made some changes to his own bracing designs to bring more separation among the notes which was done in the German guitar... Then too, after WWII Segovia strongly promoted nylon over gut strings... I dunno... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Matt... One forum note: "Parkening writes in his book that Segovia told him that a guitar was only good for five years. After that it was worn out. Segovia was so rough on his guitars that that may have been true for him. I don't think any of the Torres could have stood up to his playing. Parkening played one of Segovia's 'old' guitars during his Segovia Tribute and I understand from those who heard the performances the sound was beautiful...almost transforming, definitly not worn out. I haven't heard of Parkening changing his guitars every five years." Another note... Apparently even the first Hauser had some physical problems after a while, although the German luthier was closer to what Segovia wanted in an instrument. Supposedly Ramirez got hold of it and made some changes to his own bracing designs to bring more separation among the notes which was done in the German guitar... Then too, after WWII Segovia strongly promoted nylon over gut strings... I dunno... m Thanks Milo, that was very interesting and makes me wonder if it was more of a perceived difference than an actual one? But then I suppose, it doesn't matter, because if he really felt there was a difference, there was! We are all so different aren't we?! (thank God!) On an a related subject, my colleague Richard, went to a masterclass given by David Russell. David is renowned for having a superb tone in the way he plays. Richard finished his piece and waited for the masterclass to begin. At the end of the lesson on the piece David said "do you mind if I try your guitar, it sounded lovely" Richard passed it to him and what came out of the guitar he said was the most ordinary tone. He said David looked surprised and also a bit embarrassed; he promptly passed it back! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymeedc Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Excuse me for duplicating a reply I've already posted to a similar thread, but it seems to be apropos..... Seems most discussions here & on other similar threads have thus far mostly, & rightly so, pertained to sound quality, perceived or otherwise. To me the feel of an older instrument versus a newer example is just as important. After having owned & played a ton of guitars spanning my four decades of experience, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that, no matter how expensive and/or superb a new instrument is, I just don't feel quite at home on it if the neck hasn't been heavily broken in for at least a few years. I just recently sold a Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul Special Historic VOS for this very reason, in spite of the fact that I loved every other aspect of it. A thoroughly broke in neck brings forth nuances & a certain ease of transference I'm not able to attain on newer instruments. Of course I'm talking about an instrument equal in every other way to it's current counterpart, in other words "all other things being equal". These aren't "facts", of course, just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 .....I just don't feel quite at home on it if the neck hasn't been heavily broken in for at least a few years. I just recently sold a Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul Special Historic VOS for this very reason, in spite of the fact that I loved every other aspect of it... With all due respect, raymeedc, I suspect that if it was as good as you suggest perhaps it would have been wiser to have broken it in for a few years yourself and kept it? That's what I'd have done, anyhow. Am doing, in fact... puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Matt... Apparently Segovia was hard on guitars. But you've gotta figure too this is when the classical guitar as we know it today was still in a lotta development. As I understand - this ain't anything I'm certain about - Torres guitars already were "old" and very expensive. But they also were more or less designed as fine accompaniment sorts of instruments. Ramirez in that era - remember this also is just when recording, radio and such were coming about - apparently was making his instruments along the same lines. Hauser OTOH, was making guitars braced and shaped enough differently that there was a greater distinction between notes - less overtones perhaps? This also too was in big arguments between folks pushing bare finger right hand technique vs nails-only right hand technique and Segovia used the combination most of us use today. Anyway, the bottom line supposedly is that Ramirez got hold of the original Segovia Hauser that Segovia had literally broken some bracing on, and combined the German and Spanish techniques to get the Spanish warmth with the German precision. I look at it this way: In roughly that same time period the archtop became popular because it recorded far better than flattops of any size in that era. The microphones and nascent radio biz were tube types and that whole sound was a lot warmer than today's radio. I've played on the old radio equipment - literally the same mikes and tube transmitter used in the 30s - and yup, there's a lot more "smear" of sound in a sense. Still - I dunno what Segovia was doing that wore out guitars like that. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymeedc Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 With all due respect, raymeedc, I suspect that if it was as good as you suggest perhaps it would have been wiser to have broken it in for a few years yourself and kept it? That's what I'd have done, anyhow. Am doing, in fact... puppy. At 61 years of age, I don't have the time or will to devote to an end I will probably not be around to appreciate. Even if I were 20 years old, though, I don't see the point to doing so & delaying gratification, when I could trade an unsatisfactory instrument in for one that I can love now, (which is what I did with the Special, selling it to purchase my '61 Epiphone Casino, an absolute gem that feels like "home"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinh Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm of the opinion that once you get into the top 10% bracket of any product (hi fi, equipment, musical instruments, wine etc) all of the products are good. Hence opinion as to which is better becomes entirely subjective and eventually idiosyncratic I remember this first happening with what was called HI-Fi in the 70's . As the equipment got better and better, it was harder and harder to measure a performance difference, and the old "objective" reviewers were slowly replaced by "golden ears" types who insisted they could detect subtle differences in terms of "openness" "timing" "sound field depth" etc between technically identical equipment. This led the sort of madness we have today where one can produce an RCA cable with silver wire and heavy gold plated contacts that sells for $250, and someone will insist that it improved the realism of the transients on their system (don't get me started on the $150 shielded power cord that was in one of my hi-fi catalogs recently) I always suspected that the experts who claimed to hear differences caused by power cables, or by setting their turntable on a two-ton block of marble, really couldn't tell the difference in double-blind tests. It makes me happy to see that someone may have proven just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 That's all well and interesting but I was expecting a story about the Emperor's Clothes.... So can we here the story now??? Me likes stories.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 If you want a worn in feel to a neck. Take the strings off. Support the neck well and use a drill and buffer like you'd polish a car with. That'll polish the wood and make the neck smooth to play. Polish your frets too is an easy way to make it play better. It's amazing what an hour can achieve. Mask the fretboard. Get some metal polish. ie, Brasso. And rub away. Then remove tape. Oil neck. Re string. It'll play ten times better. Guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexri Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 If you want a worn in feel to a neck. Take the strings off. Support the neck well and use a drill and buffer like you'd polish a car with. That'll polish the wood and make the neck smooth to play. Polish your frets too is an easy way to make it play better. It's amazing what an hour can achieve. Mask the fretboard. Get some metal polish. ie, Brasso. And rub away. Then remove tape. Oil neck. Re string. It'll play ten times better. Guaranteed. Lately I feel like my fingers have been getting "caught up" on the high frets and I don't know why. Would putting Brasso on the frets help in that respect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 At 61 years of age, I don't have the time or will to devote to an end I will probably not be around to appreciate. Even if I were 20 years old, though, I don't see the point to doing so & delaying gratification, when I could trade an unsatisfactory instrument in for one that I can love now, (which is what I did with the Special, selling it to purchase my '61 Epiphone Casino, an absolute gem that feels like "home"). Ah, well, raymeedc; Compared with you I'm a mere stripling of 52 and am, therefore, looking forward to another 40-odd years of plucking, so my time spent loving my darlings is considered to be 'money in the bank' as it were! LOL! I'm delighted to hear that you found your '61 Epi. I've experienced that same 'coming home' phenomenon myself and know exactly how wonderful it feels. Lately I feel like my fingers have been getting "caught up" on the high frets and I don't know why. Would putting Brasso on the frets help in that respect? Very probably. Polished frets and new strings can make an enormous difference depending on how tarnished the frets were previously. Try it. It only takes a few minutes but do as lashurst says regarding protecting the fingerboard as the residue can stain the wood if you are not careful. Lemon-oil or some other type of 'board conditioner will probably help as well. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Lately I feel like my fingers have been getting "caught up" on the high frets and I don't know why. Would putting Brasso on the frets help in that respect? You might even consider a fret dress. I'm always staggered how cheap this skilled procedure is. There is at least 1 chap here who could do it and I'd trust him with pretty much anything but I'll leave it up to him if he wants to chime in and offer his services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Lately I feel like my fingers have been getting "caught up" on the high frets and I don't know why. Would putting Brasso on the frets help in that respect? I'd say the frets need 'Crowning'. I can't get on with my Les Paul. My fingers catch on the frets. I like round frets, not flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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