ParlourMan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Not always true. I think the outdated attitude of most music store owners contributes. The market exists. The supply is low (obviously, that's what we are talking about). It just takes someone to step up and do it right. How do you step-up and do it 'right' when you're not allowed to advertise your inventory online? An online presence, product list and pricing is the very least of expectations a customer has for a modern business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 How do you step-up and do it 'right' when you're not allowed to advertise your inventory online? An online presence, product list and pricing is the very least of expectations a customer has for a modern business. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Jezdep, I agree completely - I preferred the old model of the Mom&Pop. That was where I bought my first good guitar, a Gibson C-0, took my lessons, and bought my Black Diamonds one at a time. But, a year or so later, when I was ready to upgrade to an LG1, Mr. Knopf didn't have anything other than the base level classical Gibsons, so I had to drive two towns over to a Sam Ash. Had a perceived problem with the guitar and a month later they replaced it. I know I wouldn't have gotten a replacement at the M&P! Like others on here (PM) I have since then only bought high end guitars used. Less than a year old and 'like new'. While not exactly supporting Gibson directly, it does encourage those who aren't sure if they like a guitar (like others here) to buy it new, knowing they can easily sell it at a good price after a few months. So, while I prefer 'the good old days' of Mayberry like you - I know they're gone for ever. The good news is - these are the new good old days for kids just starting out on guitars and they'll probably be able to buy a starter guitar at a M&P. The two I frequent have a bevy of nice Taylors. Possibly, since they weren't available in the '60s, these are what will keep the M&Ps going. I stand by my earlier comment though - supply & demand dictate to Gibson that they be selective in where and how they present their acoustics to the public. We may not all here agree with their choices, and the random Best Buy anecdote aside - it is obvious that they can't spread their limited inventory over every M&P in every town in the US. Or the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 While I'm sympathetic to the stories and I do agree with the justifications somewhat, I don't think people buying used are in much of a place to make a judgement call, as stated, in no way are you supporting Gibson as a company or product line, the only tangible link to supporting the company is you're finalising the death of validity for any warranty claims. I'm not criticising 2nd hand buyers at all with that, but, it must be said that the tuppence worth thrown in on the availability and stocking of stores, online inventories and pricing in direct correlation to Gibson's business models would only apply to new stocks, not used. In a perverse sense it's where Gibson may benefit to a certain degree in the online world, as there are so many fake's out there of varying qualities a lot of buyers would perhaps err on the side of caution and save up the extra money to buy new and know they have the 'real deal' rather than risk being landed with a fake, especially in cases where import may be part of the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 While I'm sympathetic to the stories and I do agree with the justifications somewhat, I don't think people buying used are in much of a place to make a judgement call, as stated, in no way are you supporting Gibson as a company or product line, the only tangible link to supporting the company is you're finalising the death of validity for any warranty claims. I would respond by saying that by buying used, I have already made my judgement call. I would agree that this is not supporting Gibson as a company. However, when it comes to buying used where I live, I am pouring money back into my local economy not only via the purchase but also the ensuing business that I provide my local luthier for setups, etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 I would respond by saying that by buying used, I have already made my judgement call. I would agree that this is not supporting Gibson as a company. However, when it comes to buying used where I live, I am pouring money back into my local economy not only via the purchase but also the ensuing business that I provide my local luthier for setups, etc.. There is also the fact that after buying a used Gibson, you may, if you love that guitar, buy a new one at some point. No different from buying a used car in that regard. If you like that car, and can ultimately afford to buy a new car, you may be more inclined to buy the same brand. Brand loyalty is a significant component of long-term company success, even though it may be hard to quantify in the short run. That's why creating customer good will is so important, even if it has no immediate, measurable impact on the bottom line If I could afford it, I might well have Gibson Acoustic build me the guitar of my dreams. And it's all because I own (and love) a number of Gibsons, all of which I bought used, although several were only a year or two old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I'm not disputing the love, appreciation, respect for Gibson, not at all, all I'm saying is if you've never bought new then effectively you've never supported them... It's not a judgement or criticism I'm making, it has no bearing on me at all, I'm just stating a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 I'm not disputing the love, appreciation, respect for Gibson, not at all, all I'm saying is if you've never bought new then effectively you've never supported them... It's not a judgement or criticism I'm making, it has no bearing on me at all, I'm just stating a fact. Understand that completely. I'm just pointing out that if you develop a loyalty to a brand from buying used, you may ultimately buy new, which definitely does support the company. That's one reason auto manufacturers have transferable warranties. (No Gibson slight intended there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Understannd that completely. I'm just pointing out that if you develop a loyalty to a brand from buying used, you may ultimately buy new, which definitely does support the company. That's one reason auto manufacturers have transferable warranties. (No Gibson slight intended there) Yeah, that's true Nick, but as you say without transferrable warranties (extremely unlikely in the guitar market) it's always just a "maybe", they can't do much accounting on maybe's... Again, no criticism, no underhanded intent with the comment. I can see the lure of buying used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 When you buy a used Gibson, the company is not seeing cash inflow from you but you are supporting the market in a number of ways and this is helpful to Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 When you buy a used Gibson, the company is not seeing cash inflow from you but you are supporting the market in a number of ways and this is helpful to Gibson. Care to expand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Care to expand? Aside from the obvious fact that all non-commodity goods that retain a high value in the used market, reflect that dynamic in the pricing of the new market, based on studies companies undertake regularly to support pricing decisions, let me give you two examples. In the US for the past 3 months or so BMW automobiles have been running a series of ads on tv where an upscale, well dressed attractive person approaces another of similar type getting into a brand new beemer with some Starbucks and warns them to be careful not to spill. The incredulous new car owner asks 'what are you talking about? The interloper explains in a back to the future kind of way that they, in fact, will be buying that same car from them in a couple of years and they want it to be in great shape. This is 'push/pull' marketing. BMW would not be spending millions on prime time advertising if they weren't certain that the message they are sending has the effect of encouraging both used car purchases and new - with the correlation in higher prices due to stimulated demand. Whether it is Rolex or Ford, selected dealers are sure to point out the retained value of their product when the time comes to sell it. Hope this helps clarify why I feel that when I purchased a 3 month old slightly used H'bird TV from a GC over the internet, I felt I was indirectly but actually supporting the Gibson brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 My first three Bozeman made Gibsons were all purchased new via independent authorized dealers that I truly enjoyed doing business with. After moving halfway across the country, two of the last three have been purchased used via a local independent dealer that I respected, and one remote independent dealer that I had long ago established a relationship with. The last Gibson that I ended up with was done so via a trade, arranged by a local independent dealer. None of these dealers are authorized Gibson dealers. Gibson acoustics and independent musical instrument retailers have been a near constant for me over the past couple of decades. However, Gibson no longer ends up with a good chunk of my money as a result of those purchases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Or BMW is selling you the idea that people aspire to be you... because you'll be on the newer, fancier, perkier model. As for how you felt, if it made you fell that way who am I to argue with you, good on you. It's all just perceived anyway, your assessment of it as warranted as me saying earlier what you factually did was sign the death certificate for the warranty possibilities of that model. While I'm sure they're happy it's out there being played and enjoyed and may even snag someone in to buying another, do you think they sit better with the idea of it being a new model, I believe so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 One thing I will say about the Ebay/internet thing is that if you do your guitar homework so that you reduce the chance you'll be bamboozled, it is the greatest vintage showroom out there, all displayed before your eyes while you sit on your tukus. I'll never buy a new guitar so I'm the worst person to discuss Gibson or any other maker's sale policies. Now I'm networked with many vintage traders as well. I'm the kid in the candy store...but without the pocketfull of nickels. The guy that just hooked me up with my first LG2, a solid example of a '56, parted with it after he walked into a Tennessee pawn shop and saw a banner J45 that he grabbed for some 4K. On the way out the door he spotted a second (minty) J45, walked up to it and turned the hang tag to see $139.99. It was a '53...and out came the wallet again. I think he was giddy enough to accept my humble offer, on the guitar I chased down after it didn't sell on Ebay. Sometimes the dominoes fall just right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 One thing I will say about the Ebay/internet thing is that if you do your guitar homework so that you reduce the chance you'll be bamboozled, it is the greatest vintage showroom out there, all displayed before your eyes while you sit on your tukus. I'll never buy a new guitar so I'm the worst person to discuss Gibson or any other maker's sale policies. Now I'm networked with many vintage traders as well. I'm the kid in the candy store...but without the pocketfull of nickels. Well, you can either have that pocketfull of nickels (lots of them), or you can have yer vintage Gibson. That seems like a no-brainer choice. Never did care for small change weighing me down. The internet/Ebay is the world's biggest enabler for guitar junkies like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 The internet/Ebay is the world's biggest enabler for guitar junkies like me. That's the money-shot right there, for us guitar enthusiasts and for many other participants in other interests/hobbies and professions it's the modern way to do business. Now as it stands a dealer can find themselves bettered contractually, stripped of status to 'protect' exclusivity on their old patch and no longer allowed to advertise an inventory. That's what was said earlier, if so, it's actually not very protective of those who won't meet Gibson's expectation figures. For such a 'free market' society I'm quite surprised by the amount of 'closed shop' support, I've seen here. The support for 5-star and independent dealers, even factoring in some brand protection, elitisms and playing to the demographic you are trying to reach both aesthetically and economically, if you then factor in the supplies to the GC's of the world and the relentless complaints over condition, shop wear and dead strings; it stats to demonstrate that again the "objective is to sell guitars", can you not see the policy as laid out and the actuality are quite different? Brand protection priorities would see them not supply big chains that end in countless dissatisfied internet threads on their own boards about dead strings and wooly socks, the same guitars manufactured by the same people are lauded over in many other stores names down the line that can't actually call themselves a Gibson dealer because of contractual gripes, breakdowns or a bigger fish taking away that possibility for them. I just find some of the reasoning offered for very skewed and grey dealings fairly contradictory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 How do you step-up and do it 'right' when you're not allowed to advertise your inventory online? An online presence, product list and pricing is the very least of expectations a customer has for a modern business. Those things would certainly be nice. They would help expand a business. Customers who don't live close to a store do really have a need for that. It doesn't mean you can't sell without it though. Good customer service, knowledgeable staff, the right guitars, proper maintenance of inventory... and many other factors play a huge roll too. There are some people who are almost purely internet shoppers. There are also people who are purely at the opposite end of the spectrum. Stores just have to figure out what works in their area and then do it. Unless you are going to be an internet only dealer, then the whole recipe starts in your actual store anyway. And no, it's not impossible to do it brick and mortar only. and you don't need 2 million+ people around you. 10,000 won't cut it, but 2 million is too high of an estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 Those things would certainly be nice. They would help expand a business. Customers who don't live close to a store do really have a need for that. It doesn't mean you can't sell without it though. Good customer service, knowledgeable staff, the right guitars, proper maintenance of inventory... and many other factors play a huge roll too. There are some people who are almost purely internet shoppers. There are also people who are purely at the opposite end of the spectrum. Stores just have to figure out what works in their area and then do it. Unless you are going to be an internet only dealer, then the whole recipe starts in your actual store anyway. And no, it's not impossible to do it brick and mortar only. and you don't need 2 million+ people around you. 10,000 won't cut it, but 2 million is too high of an estimate. Modoc, you have a good location in the heart of guitar country, as well as a great reputation. You also have 1/4 of the entire population of Alabama in your metro area, which ain't bad. It's tough for people like me who may not have a decent dealer like you within hundreds of miles. (I'm not counting the two GC's I have that are 1 1/2-2 hours away as "decent" dealers, as I haven't been particularly impressed.) We have to at least do our preliminary fact-finding online, and the input of knowledgeable dealers like yourselves would be invaluable to us. A good website is key to that in this day and age, and the ability to view your in-stock or special order instruments online would be a huge plus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 all I'm saying is if you've never bought new then effectively you've never supported them... It's not a judgement or criticism I'm making, it has no bearing on me at all, I'm just stating a fact. Not always true. You can purchase a slightly used (returned) Gibson from an authorized dealer at a reduced price, moving that stock out and making way for the retailer to purchase more new instruments, resulting in more profit for Gibson. Three of my instruments have been purchased exactly that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Modoc, you have a good location in the heart of guitar country, as well as a great reputation. You also have 1/4 of the entire population of Alabama in your metro area, which ain't bad. It's tough for people like me who may not have a decent dealer like you within hundreds of miles. (I'm not counting the two GC's I have that are 1 1/2-2 hours away as "decent" dealers, as I haven't been particularly impressed.) We have to at least do our preliminary fact-finding online, and the input of knowledgeable dealers like yourselves would be invaluable to us. A good website is key to that in this day and age, and the ability to view your in-stock or special order instruments online would be a huge plus. True on many points. I do have 1/4 of the population, but that puts me at just over 1 million. not the 2+ mentioned. I think the reputation has a lot to do with it. Being in an area with a lot of musicians does help too, but everywhere has them and it's important to cater to your market. I do hate it for guys that are in areas without many options. I actually grew up in such a place in South Carolina. It was terrible. I sympathize! Like I said, it would be a HUGE help if we could post online inventory... but not being able to hasn't killed us. We have found a way to be successful anyway. There IS a funny thing to that though.... Even though it would help us today, we wouldn't have gotten to that point if it had always been OK to do. I remember several years ago when we really struggled to sell nice guitars because there were so many stores with well established websites. We dealt with it every day with most customers that walked in. They could always find someone online willing to dump pieces at cost just to get out from under them. It was tough to get our foot in that door. I will also admit that our website is TERRIBLE. It doesn't look good. It doesn't represent us accurately. I would love to see that fixed. Unfortunately, I am in no position to influence such things. So, it's just another hurdle to overcome. I don't know what the answer is. There are stores that would thrive if allowed to post online, there are others that are currently successful but would be killed if the internet was totally opened up. I am talking about some good stores too... Just ones in smaller towns. The truth is that EVERY manufacturer puts some really tough limitations on all of their dealers. We hear about the ones from Gibson a lot, but all of them have rules. Some are worse than Gibson. You think it's bad for Gibson to tell a store how much to buy? Try being told by a different company which INDIVIDUAL SKUs you have to stock... regardless of whether you can sell them. and THEN also making you hit a huge number. Or the ones that tell you that you can be the exclusive dealer for a territory only to sell their products to every music store and pawn shop in town. It's a tough business. It really is. You just have to work with what you have and make the most of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Nice balanced posts Madoc and nice to hear that you have found a way to make a go of it... Not always true. You can purchase a slightly used (returned) Gibson from an authorized dealer at a reduced price, moving that stock out and making way for the retailer to purchase more new instruments, resulting in more profit for Gibson. Three of my instruments have been purchased exactly that way. That's a fairly anorexic argument there Bobouz..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 That's a fairly anorexic argument there Bobouz..... Any logically stretched port in a storm PM, but it does remain true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 For a brand with a long history like Gibson or Martin, it is advantageous to the maker if used guitars of their brand are rare and or expensive. Moment for you to consider - yep, that's right. There is a pool of available J-45's. Only so many have been made since the models inception and some of the oldest ones have bitten the dear old dust I suppose. If you snag one off ebay or craigslist, or a mom and pop, or your buddy, or whatever, the available pool is decreased by one unit. Is this good or bad for the maker. Duh! Do I have to draw a diagram? When you buy a used Gibson and shout out on the internet about your NGD, is that good for the brand, you betcha. When you show it to your friends and they get a load of how great it sounds... you betcha. When you consider your next purchase, y. b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The dman Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I only read part of the thread but I just want to say I'm left handed and the only way I can shop is across the internet. Nobody has lefty Gibsons in my area (Chicago Milwaukee) to speak of and not allowing stores to list their stock seems counter productive. I came across quite a few stores across the net that had left handed Martins and Taylors but not a peep about Gibson. I wasn't even considering a Gibson and I stumbled upon my J45 by accident. I was returning a Taylor that I didn't get along with and I happened to pick up the Gibson and instantly fell in love but had it not been a sweet sounding box I would have put it back on the stand and not given Gibson another thought. It makes looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack even harder. I lucked out but it was a fluke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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