singing help

[blindboygrunt]

anyone who has seen my videos will know that i am no roy orbison when it comes to range of singing voice .

i think we would all love to have a voice that blows people away , but its really not a huge deal for me as i am comfortable enough with my lot and while i dont get it right all the time the music i love aint too much of a strain .

 

i certainly dont practice enough due to my living conditions being a little on the small side . so thats no doubt not doing me any favours as far as excercising the old vocal muscles, but .....

 

any of you ever had lessons ? have often wondered just how much they would help and old duffer like me who , to quote billy connolly , has a voice 'like a goose farting in the fog'

 

cheers

[EuroAussie]

Ive had singing lessons, but was disappointed with the outcome because while the teacher was very good, in hindsight she focused too much on technqiue, such as range, delivery, using diaphram etc ... but she forgot that the fundamental problem that Ive had was simply singing in key and hitting the right notes. I still have this problem but getting better at it as my ear improves.

 

I might go back to her now, that I seem to have the basics a bit more in order, but also Im surprised she didnt pick that up and just worked on scales with me rather than stretchign my range and strenght.

 

Anyway, i would definitely recommend giving it a go, but be clear what you want to achieve and give her a clear brief, and be ooen to funny exercised like pretending to be a monkey ....

 

However my Mrs has had extensive time, and has no issue with pitch control, and as you can hear here, she worked pretty hard with her to give her a really strong voice.

 

http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_6565352?utm_campaign=opengraph&utm_content=song&utm_medium=link&utm_source=facebook

[Versatile]

IMX the key is to sing 'openly' regularly...with discipline...

 

Church goers have it made...choirs etc are ideal for 'making noise'

 

Open mic events refresh mic technique and audience interaction

 

It takes drive though, to practice every day...

 

Lessons can be regarded as tutored practice sessions

 

V

 

[blindboygrunt]

you are both kinda seconding what is in my head , that the right teacher will no doubt be of use but theres nothing beats practicing .

 

i'm movin soon so will have more room/time to practice .

 

i have no interest in taking up opera , i just want to have a bit more if a stretch , and my ear isnt great at finding a key .

 

like versatile says , its the 'losing' yourself is the bet tool . but i cant afford the guinness to be able to lose myself all the time :)

thanks for your answers guys

 

EA , your mrs has a great voice , mine does too but it can lead to trouble when she wants to practice because it seems to be my job to find songs for her to be singing :)

[flatbaroque]

That's an interesting question.I'm like you and just potter around in my limited range and generally stay in tune. But I'd be interested to know if a "bog average" voice can be improved in range especially.

It's funny my auntie and first cousin are both well respected singing teachers..and have been professional singers.Yet I've never really discussed "shop" with them. Never even sung in front of them (maybe once or twice after too much neck oil at some family do)...

You mentioned opera in passing.A mate from school was always a pretty good singer, winning eisteddfords? and such.Anyway on leaving school he just worked a crappy public service job and sang in clubs part time..just doing cheesy covers of stuff like Neil Diamond and other big ballads.

Anyway suddenly he got it in his head he could try opera.So he went to the Sydney Conservatorium of Music...long story short...he's now in the Australian Opera Company and has sung all over the world in the past 20 years.

I hope we hear some success stories.

[kidblast]

Do you have an acoustic w/a pup?

 

Do you have a mixer with a headphone jack? (anything will do - a + if it has on board DSP)

 

Do you have headphones?

 

Set yourself up somewhere in your house with a these three items, Find a place where there will be no distractions. Start with songs you know you are comfortable with. Practice singing these tunes every day, as you get more comfortable, add more songs. You will find that in using headphones you are going hear exactly where you need to be intonation wise. Make sure you're breathing properly, inhale fully, and don't try to kill it. Keep your control as best as you can. Remember to breath properly all the time. One of the biggest problems with not being able to obtain and hold the note, is often lack of air. Breathing is huge. And if you are in a confined space, just forget other people that can hear you, try to just not care about it, sing like they're not there.

 

Singing is as much confidence as it is ability and range. Using the headphones are going to help you know where you're flat, know when you're on. The more confident you are, the easier this is going to get. Once you KNOW you are able to sing songs comfortably, you will be amazed with how much you can improve with some DAILY practice.

 

and lessons could help, but your teacher has to understand where you want to go.

 

Good luck!

[blindboygrunt]

Do you have an acoustic w/a pup?

 

Do you have a mixer with a headphone jack? (anything will do - a + if it has on board DSP)

 

Do you have headphones?

 

Set yourself up somewhere in your house with a these three items, Find a place where there will be no distractions. Start with songs you know you are comfortable with. Practice singing these tunes every day, as you get more comfortable, add more songs. You will find that in using headphones you are going hear exactly where you need to be intonation wise. Make sure you're breathing properly, inhale fully, and don't try to kill it. Keep your control as best as you can. Remember to breath properly all the time. One of the biggest problems with not being able to obtain and hold the note, is often lack of air. Breathing is huge. And if you are in a confined space, just forget other people that can hear you, try to just not care about it, sing like they're not there.

 

Singing is as much confidence as it is ability and range. Using the headphones are going to help you know where you're flat, know when you're on. The more confident you are, the easier this is going to get. Once you KNOW you are able to sing songs comfortably, you will be amazed with how much you can improve with some DAILY practice.

 

and lessons could help, but your teacher has to understand where you want to go.

 

Good luck!

 

thanks kid , thats a good answer , i havent done the headphones trick yet , i certainly will. i have all thats needed apart from the space to have it set up .

 

8 days and counting til my man cave :)

[EuroAussie]

thanks kid , thats a good answer , i havent done the headphones trick yet , i certainly will. i have all thats needed apart from the space to have it set up .

 

8 days and counting til my man cave :)

 

Yeah, I agree, thats good advice. I normally sing into a mike, but dont go hard as dont have confidence and scared neighbours will scream in horror. The headphones approach is a good one I reckon, will try that myself also !

[Buc McMaster]

Hearing your own voice clearly is key to effective practise. To that end, I learned to sing facing a wall, very close to the wall......nearly "nose on the wall" close, and I still practise this way. The surface reflects your voice perfectly and you can actually hear what's coming out, good or bad. As well as pitch correction, you hear articulation of the words.....learn to move your mouth in more than just a spoken word, conversational way. Teach yourself breath control by anticipating phrasing....you learn when to draw that big gulp of air and when a short, quick grab will work better for a particular phrase. For power, push from your diaphram, the muscle that draws and exhales air from the lungs. Consciously strive to control that muscle. (Learning this control will also help you kill a case of the hiccups almost instantly!) Tightening your abdominal muscles as you exhale will help a lot in this effort, but think "diaphram" as you do it. The diaphram is where power comes from.

[JohnnyReb]

I think being able to sing is as subjective as guitar tone. I think there's a lot of people who hit the big time who can't sing.

 

Johnny cash- I love some cash but the guy doesn't win any awards for being a beautifull singer. It's all in the style, his style

AC/DC- is that singing?? I'm sure it makes singing teachers shrill but the record sales do the talking

And well you get the point

 

 

I'm sure this isn't the technical answer your looking for but I think you should just sing and be you. Johnny cash wasn't a Roy Orbison either. Just be you and sing like you. I think it will be more rewarding

[blindboygrunt]

I think being able to sing is as subjective as guitar tone. I think there's a lot of people who hit the big time who can't sing.

 

Johnny cash- I love some cash but the guy doesn't win any awards for being a beautifull singer. It's all in the style, his style

AC/DC- is that singing?? I'm sure it makes singing teachers shrill but the record sales do the talking

And well you get the point

 

 

I'm sure this isn't the technical answer your looking for but I think you should just sing and be you. Johnny cash wasn't a Roy Orbison either. Just be you and sing like you. I think it will be more rewarding

 

 

thats totally my view of music to like and emulate , but .... a little bit more would be nice IF ITS IN ME ? which is really what i'm wondering .

i know i dont do it enough , but i'm just pontificating here , isnt that what the forums for ? :)

 

buc , i will try that.... it made me laugh out loud , but i'll give it a go !!

 

the videos are a great way to hear what i'm doing right/wrong , but thanks for the other ideas guys

[Rambler]

Learn the tune. As Dave Bromberg once said, the note either has to go up, down or stay the same, so sing it, in the shower, the car, the bus (quietly).

Sing out. Get some wind moving. Dont force through the throat and nose.

Tape it. Listen and review (yes, it hurts, but it gets better). R

[stein]

Hearing your own voice clearly is key to effective practise. To that end, I learned to sing facing a wall, very close to the wall......nearly "nose on the wall" close, and I still practise this way. The surface reflects your voice perfectly and you can actually hear what's coming out, good or bad. As well as pitch correction, you hear articulation of the words.....learn to move your mouth in more than just a spoken word, conversational way. Teach yourself breath control by anticipating phrasing....you learn when to draw that big gulp of air and when a short, quick grab will work better for a particular phrase. For power, push from your diaphram, the muscle that draws and exhales air from the lungs. Consciously strive to control that muscle. (Learning this control will also help you kill a case of the hiccups almost instantly!) Tightening your abdominal muscles as you exhale will help a lot in this effort, but think "diaphram" as you do it. The diaphram is where power comes from.

I can't sing at all, so my advice has little or no value.

 

But THIS^^ guy can sing! If you get a chance, find some of the stuff he has posted here on this forum (or whatever else he has up).

 

I think this advise is coming from genuine wisdom and experience. He doesn't exactly have the type of voice that strikes you as what some would call "blessed" with a great voice. More like an average guy. But, he really can sing VERY well and make a song come to life. I could listen to him for hours, and what he sings sounds like song.

[Rambler]

ps listen to "good" singers. Good like Doc Watson, Ms John Hurt, Fogerty. They stick to the melody and dont mess around too much. 'Stylists (his Bobness, TP, Neil, etc) and shouters all have their place but it might not be a bad idea to keep them off your playlist while this work is in progress. R

[Lefty Guy]

anyone who has seen my videos will know that i am no roy orbison when it comes to range of singing voice .

i think we would all love to have a voice that blows people away , but its really not a huge deal for me as i am comfortable enough with my lot and while i dont get it right all the time the music i love aint too much of a strain .

 

i certainly dont practice enough due to my living conditions being a little on the small side . so thats no doubt not doing me any favours as far as excercising the old vocal muscles, but .....

 

any of you ever had lessons ? have often wondered just how much they would help and old duffer like me who , to quote billy connolly , has a voice 'like a goose farting in the fog'

 

cheers

 

Well, as a regular at Kaufmann Kamp for the last 6 years attending beginner then intermediate flatpicking classes I decided to do something different this year, i.e. vocal classes. I know I started playing too late in life to ever get beyond intermediate at guitar, but felt that at least by improving my singing I could disguise some of my technical defficiencies on guitar. I had no idea whether the course offered at SKAK this year would help or not but boy, was it worth it! We were coached by Sally Jones, who is a beautiful singer, wonderful teacher & a lot of fun too. We were 15 students (age range 10 to 60 years old) & had 4 hours of classes daily for 5 days, split into 2x2 hour sessions. Each 2 hour session was in turn split 50/50 into working on solo & group harmony singing.

The harmony stuff was not really what I wanted to do but I did find it interesting & fun, as we all (male/female) had to take turns singing all the different parts. This culminated in a class performance on stage the final night of Kamp in front of an audience of several hundred people. It was a blast.

The solo coaching was what I was there for & it really helped. Sally did the bare minimum of the boring warm-up/posture/technique stuff, prefering to spend time actually getting us all to sing. This entailed really helpful tuition about choosing a song, finding the right key for your voice for that particular song, learning the lyrics, making the song your own & finally standing up in public & performing it. To cut a long story short, by the end of the week I & every other member of our class had chosen a song, chosen a key, learnt the lyrics & sung our songs both in front of the class AND outside our class. This process gave me sufficient confidence to perform "my" song at open mic one evening & since Kamp I've sung it several times at jams or family gatherings. Bottom line - I'd never have had the confidence or ability to do this without taking these lessons. Our teacher was a star but the group experience also helped enormously as we all encouraged each other.

So my advice would be to find some friends who also want to improve their singing, find the right teacher & do it together.....or sign up for Kaufmann Kamp next June (sadly Sally won't be there next year but I know Steve has signed someone else up).

 

Here's a recording of our group harmony performance, but do remember we only actually started learning this song the day before! I'm far right as you view stage & out of sight for much of it thankfully....

[MissouriPicker]

Good suggestions in this thread. I've never had lessons. I think I sing okay. Not great, but okay. I believe the thing that has helped me most is to sing like me. I spent a long time trying to sing my favorite songs like the artists who made them my favorites. You know, singing with the radio and being like the current day studs in Country Music: screaming to reach notes I'll never reach. What has really helped me is finally realizing I don't have to sound like Cash to make his songs sound okay. Cash originally sang "I Walk The Line" starting in the key of A (although he sometimes sang it in E). I can't do that and still be in key as the song changes key (the song has 5 key changes, 3 different keys), so I start it in G and can make my key changes. I definitly can't sing "Runaway" like Del Shannon, though I tried to do "wah wah wah wah wonder" for years in a falsetto like he did so easily. I sounded like an idiot, even to my own ears. I learned to sing it a bit slower and lower and then I can do the high notes with no strain and in my normal signing voice. I even tried to sing "Bridge Over Troubled Water" like Art Garfunkel...lol...it was pretty funny. Talk about a strain on the vocal chords... Then I heard Cash do it in his own somber and downtrodden style and I again came back to earth and started doing it my way. None of this makes me a good or even a decent singer, but it does make me capable of carrying a tune on most songs I want to cover. Again, back to Cash, he covered songs in the style he was comfortable in. In one way or another he'd turn most songs into a ballad of some kind. I imagine lessons with a great teacher could be extremely beneficial. That, and knowing your own limits will probably go a long ways in making one a better singer....Good thread.

 

Speaking of Cash----He did do some "filler" songs on his albums that will really clean-out your ears. His vocal range was considerable if he chose to use it. While never a crooner, the guy could sing and easily reached notes that guys like Tim McGraw and Trace Adkins are really straining for. While I like some of the material both of these guys do, neither one of them is Vic Dimone or Andy Williams. For me, a lot of this singing stuff comes down to singing in a way I'm comfortable with. Sometimes we need to do a song a bit differently from the way the original songwriter/singer did it.

[drathbun]

I've never considered myself a singer, and yet, for as long as I've played guitar (42 years now), I've sung and played together. I was even the lead singer in my high school rock 'n roll band. Still when asked, I'd say I'm not a singer.

 

I like the story about Eric Clapton from the book "Crossroads" where Delaney Bramlett encouraged Eric to sing. Even though Eric never considered himself a singer, he took Bramlett's advice and started to seriously work on developing as a singer. There are all kinds of people who will argue this point, but in my opinion Eric has developed a singing voice with as much emotion, passion and expression as his guitar playing.

 

Witness this performance of "River of Tears" and tell me I'm wrong. This brings me to tears each time I see/hear it. The vocal and the lead guitar are dripping with raw emotion. (with the late great Bill Preston on Hammond, (omg) Steve Gadd on drums, Andy Fairweather-Low on guitar and Nathan East on bass)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hTlHm27Fkg

 

Now tell me that Clapton is no singer. For me it is all about commitment. Yes you need to have an ear to stay on pitch - that's what ear training is about. Yes you have to have technique so you support your vocal chords and not blow them out - take some lessons, read a book on vocal production whatever. The key is to COMMIT to it! By that I mean you commit to the performance... sing out! Sing loud! Sing like no one can hear. If you need to, soundproof your room, sing in the basement or the garage but SING OUT and commit to the notes.

 

I can only say this because it has worked wonders for me. I decided to cover River of Tears. I was unsure whether I would completely fail and embarrass myself. But, I locked my self in the basement with my recording equipment and just "went for it". I sang it with everything in my heart and soul and thought "the hell with it". If it sounds like merde... just delete the track. I'm no Clapton but I thought it turned out quite well.

 

The result gave me some good confidence that if I just willed myself to do it (with preparation of course), I could achieve better result than if I went at it with trepidation. Since recording that track, I've done a number of open mics and sing publicly a LOT more and with more confidence. If found my pitch was more accurate when I sang with confidence. I opened up more... had better breath control and a greater range.

 

So many of us are shy about singing, that we close ourselves down and therefore, like a self-fulfilling prophecy, we don't support the voice and we are pitchy and weak.

 

Sing like nobody is listening. You'll surprise yourself with the results.

[Rambler]

"So many of us are shy about singing, that we close ourselves down and therefore, like a self-fulfilling prophecy, we don't support the voice and we are pitchy and weak. " Good point here. Add natural syness and then combine with drawling ala BD,TP etc and there you have the sad state of my singing for many a year. Learn the tune, support it, etc. But also sing out for the sheer joy of it.

[kidblast]

this has been an excellent thread to follow.

 

MissouriPicker is spot on when he mentions "I sing like me". And Rambler nails it with the "self fulfilling prophecy".

 

The biggest break point for me was to not try to be someone else. Some people that can nail the original artists voice when doing cover tunes. Well, I'm not one of them! I don't have Elton Johns, or Billy Joel's (just examples) voice, so how on earth am I ever gonna sound like them? I'm not.

 

And I think, just like anything else, you have to not be afraid to suck, cuz it's the only way you're gonna know what works, and what doesn't.

 

One thing that helped me a great deal was spending the last 10+ years not playing covers and primarily doing originals. Eventually it occurred to me "If you've written it, you can probably sing it." That has enabled me to find "My" voice, and find the confidence I once lacked. I know now what works, and what doesn't.

 

Now a days, when I work with the duo that I've got assembled with a long time partner in crime, I am very comfortable singing tunes I never would have even tried before. and they sound good, I know cuz I've recorded them, and I am not cringing anymore when I hear my voice in playback, and the feedback helps - "Hey I never realized you had that kind of voice" I've always had it, it's my voice, I just finally figured out how to use it.

 

Remember kids, the voice is an instrument, it needs practice as much as one practices any instrument and it has to evolve to what each individual can do. Don't be afraid to suck. It's the only way to improve.

 

/KB

[MissouriPicker]

Real good points being made here. There's so much more to it than what we sound like. The Clapton video is a perfect example. Not only does the guitar sound human, he does too. I connect with him. A great deal of it is what we come across as while performing the song. Because of "us," does the song make a human connection with listeners? Tom Waits doesn't have much of a voice. Kind of raspy. Kind of singy-talky. Not a broad range. In some songs, might sound unpleasant to the ears for some folks. Yet, if one not only hears but sees things in a song as many of us here do, Waits is as real as one can be. When I first heard this song, back in the 70's, I thought the guy singing it was an older guy, but the guy was/is younger than me. When Waits wrote this, he was twenty-two, yet this is how an older guy like me tends to look back at things. How he understood and grasped the feeling and emotions of people perhaps 40+ years older than him at the time he was writing is a virtue/talent that goes far beyond what he sounds like. I've always been drawn to music with a definitive message and I think Waits does this very, very well. Just be who you are. There's no one else like you.......Real good topic.

[kidblast]

zackly picker, then we have other examples like Mic Jagger.

 

Who honestly thinks that man has a good voice? I think we'd all agree he doesn't but, he's undeniably one of the most recognized voices on the planet.

 

just another example of someone who was not afraid to be "himself" and he's made a long, extremely lucrative career out of it.

 

"shake what the good lord gave ya"

[sjl200]

drathbun:

For me it is all about commitment. Yes you need to have an ear to stay on pitch - that's what ear training is about. Yes you have to have technique so you support your vocal chords and not blow them out - take some lessons, read a book on vocal production whatever. The key is to COMMIT to it! By that I mean you commit to the performance... sing out! Sing loud! Sing like no one can hear. If you need to, soundproof your room, sing in the basement or the garage but SING OUT and commit to the notes.

Spot on .

 

This is the truth...we all learn by DOING be it guitar or singing or any other human endeavor.

What one ends up with is their own strong voice

[Rambler]

Remember kids, the voice is an instrument, it needs practice as much as one practices any instrument and it has to evolve to what each individual can do

Need to get your reps in. Anyone with some success as a singer has sung and sung. And sung some more. Either growing up with church choirs and family sings, or through hours of club work. And even the one's with 'characterful' voices had to figure out range and tune.

[Lars68]

The timing of this topic is spot on for me, and I would like to share a personal experience from last night.

 

First a little background, I'm 44 years old and had no prior experience of any kind with playing an instrument or singing, when I walked into a music store 14 years ago and pick out my first guitar. Music had always been extremely important in my life, and I was determined to learn to play guitar and sing the songs I love. I soon found out that it was EXTREMELY difficult for me to learn and that I unfortunately didn't have much of any kind of talent. I stuck with it and after a couple of years I could manage the basic chords and rhytm strumming. However, I could not carry a tune to save my live. I would record myself and happily let me wife listen to my latest masterpiece only to have her tell me (politely) that I was way out of tune again. I could not pick up on my singing myself. This has been going on for years and I have been close to giving up.

 

Fast forward to last night, when I praticed playing and singing the Johnny Cash version of Wayfaring Stranger. I felt that something sounded different. I couldn't really put into words what I was hearing, but something was indeed different in a good way. I then did as someone suggested above and tried singing and playing close to the wall. Suddenly I found myself raising and lowering my pitch to find the right note, and I started to hear for the first time in my life when I was in or out of tune. This is a massive breakthrough for me! To say that I suddenly was able to sing perfectly would be an exaggeration the size of Mount Everest, but I did at least prove to myself that I could hear the harmony. So If I can hear this, I should be able to learn to hit the note correctly without having to adjust. I´m on my way to finally reaching what only two days ago seemed impossible, singing and playing my favorite songs in key.

 

I would also like to add a couple of words of encouragement to others out there in similar circumstances. Maybe musical talent isn't the most important talent after all. At least I tell myself that determination and time are what you really need. It has taken me 14 years to get here, maybe I can do my first coffee shop gig in another five or so. Now that would be something for the ages... :-)

 

Lars

[blindboygrunt]

The timing of this topic is spot on for me, and I would like to share a personal experience from last night.

 

First a little background, I'm 44 years old and had no prior experience of any kind with playing an instrument or singing, when I walked into a music store 14 years ago and pick out my first guitar. Music had always been extremely important in my life, and I was determined to learn to play guitar and sing the songs I love. I soon found out that it was EXTREMELY difficult for me to learn and that I unfortunately didn't have much of any kind of talent. I stuck with it and after a couple of years I could manage the basic chords and rhytm strumming. However, I could not carry a tune to save my live. I would record myself and happily let me wife listen to my latest masterpiece only to have her tell me (politely) that I was way out of tune again. I could not pick up on my singing myself. This has been going on for years and I have been close to giving up.

 

Fast forward to last night, when I praticed playing and singing the Johnny Cash version of Wayfaring Stranger. I felt that something sounded different. I couldn't really put into words what I was hearing, but something was indeed different in a good way. I then did as someone suggested above and tried singing and playing close to the wall. Suddenly I found myself raising and lowering my pitch to find the right note, and I started to hear for the first time in my life when I was in or out of tune. This is a massive breakthrough for me! To say that I suddenly was able to sing perfectly would be an exaggeration the size of Mount Everest, but I did at least prove to myself that I could hear the harmony. So If I can hear this, I should be able to learn to hit the note correctly without having to adjust. I´m on my way to finally reaching what only two days ago seemed impossible, singing and playing my favorite songs in key.

 

I would also like to add a couple of words of encouragement to others out there in similar circumstances. Maybe musical talent isn't the most important talet after all. At least I tell myself that determination and time are what you really need. It has taken me 14 years to get here, maybe I can do my first coffee shop gig in another five or so. Now that would be something for the ages... :-)

 

Lars

 

thats cool lars , buc's singing close to a wall made me laugh but the guy knows his onions so it was something i was gonna have a go at ... can only vision someone walking in to find a guy doin that and well, its only gonna be second to gettin caught jerkin off in the 'what the HELL are you doing ' scale of things ,

i think the earphone method is slightly more normal .

 

i can relate to your story , i have played guitar for many a year and i should be better but its only in the last 3 or 4 years i have been singing in public properly. there were a few parties and passing a guitar around for a drunken number or two , but people are even payin me now , not a lot , but small steps and all that.

 

the step you have taken i remember it happenin from the not sure to 'i KNOW its in me to get through this '

 

and it kinda snowballs from there , just pick songs carefully and dont try to do jeff buckley :)

 

you'll see from my videos that i aint perfect yet but its too much fun ... and like a friend of mine used to say to encourage me ' ye can't hold it in'

 

keep going and heres to seeing a video from you soon