heymisterk Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 So, I have started taking guitar lessons again. The guy is known to be one of the best teachers in the Cleveland area. In fact, I had to wait for a slot to open up to begin lessons. When we had the standard "What guitarists do you enjoy?" discussion, I said I love Led Zeppelin's music. He told me until recently, Page was his favorite players until he realized just how much stuff he stole. Now, I get it: The are the well-known "borrowings" from the blues of Willie Dixon and Robert Johnson. I even knew - thanks to a Rocky post years ago - about "Since I've Been Loving You" being lifted entirely from Moby Grape But I didn't realize how much OTHER stuff was taken: the "Dazed and Confused", "White Mountain/Black Summer", and even the intro to "Stairway", VERY similar to the Spirit song. I guess I will always love Zep, but I must admit after viewing these clips, I feel a little...heartbroken...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heymisterk Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I'm pretty sure ALL musicians "benchmark" other's work. Since no two guitarists, or piano players, or whatever will play the same 'lick' exactly the same, we get the benefit of hearing this wealth of sound! Wouldn't anyone playing I-IV-V licks be 'stealing' from whoever did it first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 There is no better explanation of this phenomenon than the video at this link. Every Thing Is A Remix There is lots of Zep content to illustrate the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heymisterk Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 I'm pretty sure ALL musicians "benchmark" other's work. Since no two guitarists, or piano players, or whatever will play the same 'lick' exactly the same, we get the benefit of hearing this wealth of sound! Wouldn't anyone playing I-IV-V licks be 'stealing' from whoever did it first? To some extent, I think that's true. But this seems to be more than just taking a common chord progression and making it your own, at least that's what I get when I listen to the YouTube clips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky4 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 So we would be better off without Whole Lotta Love? Heartbreaker? Since I've Been Loving You? In My Time Of Dying, etc? I've got three hours of live Dazed And Confused that I couldn't do without. they put their own spin on it, all of it... The only thing they did wrong is not give credit where it was due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveinspain Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Wow it's Led Zeppelin on steroids... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heymisterk Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 There is no better explanation of this phenomenon that the video at this link. Every Thing Is A Remix There is lots of Zep content to illustrate the point. Searcy, That was a sweet clip. Whether I like it or not, it confirms a criticism: Zep took the material, but didn't credit the original composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky4 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2urpAl081kY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhXiO0lw7JE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 To some extent, I think that's true. But this seems to be more than just taking a common chord progression and making it your own, at least that's what I get when I listen to the YouTube clips. Unfortunately, we're not able to see videos from who Robert Johnson, et. al 'benchmarked' from. There are a finite number of notes one can play, and a finite number of series of notes that can be played....and a finite number of time in between those notes in a series.....yet there are unlimited songs and vatiations of songs that can be manufactured from those finite elements. It's better to enjoy what you enjoy, and leave the other stuff to people who make their living from deconstructing songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky4 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyaHsCBulI0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyeoW4ifNik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heymisterk Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 So we would be better off without Whole Lotta Love? Heartbreaker? Since I've Been Loving You? In My Time Of Dying, etc? I've got three hours of live Dazed And Confused that I couldn't do without. they put their own spin on it, all of it... The only thing they did wrong is not give credit where it was due. Not at all: I love all those songs. But you said it best: They did not give credit where credit was due, and when you are talking about one of biggest rock bands of all times - if not the biggest - I have a problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyeoW4ifNik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 . While you raise valid questions, this subject has been hashed and rehashed, ad infinitum, since the 70s. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heymisterk Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 . While you raise valid questions, this subject has been hashed and rehashed, ad infinitum, since the 70s. . Right. And it will continue to be, as long as new generations continue to discover and love Zeppelin's music. People have hashed and rehashed controversial topics since - I would imagine - controversy was invented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky4 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I recently bought a DVD of Umphrey's McGee live at Red Rock. On the back was a note....Kashmir not included due to denial of necessary license. Which I thought was a horses azz deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 But it's not just Led Zeppelin..... Les Paul was sued for plagerism, The Beach Boys were sued for plagerism, The Beatles were sued for plagerism....and the list goes on and on....if you're successful, you're a target for a plagerism suit....if you're not...no one will bother you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 It is definitely surprising how many songs Zeppelin approriated for sure, I love their versions but if you are using somebody's song as a blueprint better give credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS1z2inwJ2o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I think this can be really good for you, to research this stuff. Rather than just look at these vids, and "demonstrations" you posted here, you really need to go back further and see how these Blues guys Zep stole from stole from other Blues players. Credits can be a little goofy. Sometimes, it means "I wrote this", and sometimes it means "this is where to send the check". The term "traditional", for example. As a songwriting credit, it generally means it is pulic domain, which means no one owns it and can be used by anyone without having to pay for it. But, the term also refers to certain chord progressions and song structures that are played by EVERYONE for a certain type of music. Like certain folk or ethnic music. An Irish dirg, for example. Or, a blues tune. Keep in mind ALSO, that a "traditional" piece does NOT have to be credited. So, if you wrote the words to "traditional" music, you don't have to list it. If you can wrap your head around that, then you can see and find where a lot of "genre's" or "types" of music share the same song structure, licks, chords, etc. In many cases, it DEFINES the type of music. It can be quite liberating if you are contributing to arrangements or songwriting. Once you get rid of the idea that every song in rock and roll was created completely from the songwriters head, (as if they came up with the whole song from thier imagination), it opens up a lot more possibilities than it closes. If you really want to learn where that line is between "plagerism" and "based on", these vids made of Zep aren't very good or accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS1976 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 kiss stole everything from Deacon Dark. the #1 reason they suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Hmm.. its a tough one.. Again its kind of a thin line as we have disscused before.. When does influence become just plagiarism.. We are all influenced by music and riffs and you can look thorughout music history and find examples of that throughout.. Everyone from Elvis to Aretha to Hendrix took riffs and ideas and lines from their heroes some more obviously than others.. But does that mean that their own version is irrelevant? Bob Dylan himself said he preffered Hendrix's versions of his music to his own. I do agree that if a whole obvious riff is taken and used as the main part of a song it should be credited. Thats just respectful to do so. But it doesnt take away the fact that Led Zep were an amazing band with four very talented members who all deserved to be there. Their own versions of what they did were something different, and I think thats the point. Yes people probably should credit, but then we dont live in a perfect world and worse things than that happen. This is one example I always think of when I think of this topic. Paul Weller and ELO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaleb Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Maybe it was Peter Grant who wouldn't let them give said credit on the albums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heymisterk Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 All good points, which is why I wanted to start this thread. I will always love Zep - I can't not love them. But if you don't write something, I don't think you should say you did. Page can claim he wrote "White Summer/Black Mountain", but he didn't. I think he could say he "arranged" it, but it's really just a traditional Irish folk song he learned from Burt Jansch. I find it interesting that they credited Robert Johnson for "Traveling Riverside Blues" but didn't credit other songs they re-worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 All good points, which is why I wanted to start this thread. I will always love Zep - I can't not love them. But if you don't write something, I don't think you should say you did. Page can claim he wrote "White Summer/Black Mountain", but he didn't. I think he could say he "arranged" it, but it's really just a traditional Irish folk song he learned from Burt Jansch. I find it interesting that they credited Robert Johnson for "Traveling Riverside Blues" but didn't credit other songs they re-worked. Who knows... maybe it was the record company who did all that stuff and Led Zep didnt even have a say?? Also I think that you have to remember the world was a different place back then.. Ive seen an interview with some of the old blues guys who say that they all used to steal off each other cos they played the same curcuit... BUT the difference today is that everything is recorded and the internet lets us effortlessly look up all of the information we want so we can now really break these things down and compare etc etc.. Back then youd have to have been at the show to know about it, and that would be a very small group of people. Who ever knew that this much information would be available to everyone? These days people tend to get away with it less because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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