Newbie question about Gibson p'ups

[KVL]

Hey gang, I saw a craigslist ad for used Gibby 496R/500T, and the $ seems right.

 

Any red flags I should look for or be aware of? I don't want to get ripped off. These would be a nice upgrade to my Epi LP

[BigKahune]

.

That 500 is about as high output as Gibson makes. Nice if that's what you're after.

 

[KVL]

.

That 500 is about as high output as Gibson makes. Nice if that's what you're after.

 

 

OK, and that means...

 

I'm new to guitar technology, so i don't really get what you mean. LOL!

 

I love 70's-ish style hard rock. Zep, Aerosmith, etc. Slash is a favorite, and although he's a modern player, he certainly has that throwback vibe. I also love guys like Warren Haynes, Bonamassa, etc.

 

Would this be a good pup choice for what I've described over the stock Epi Open coil Alnico Classic Humbuckers?

[BigKahune]

.

The 496/500 are ceramic and send a strong high output signal to the amp. Loud. Scream. Great for driving a tube amp to distortion, making a heavy distortion sound with a lot of crunch and rawness.

 

The Alnico pups tend give a more classic sound - warmer, depending on the grade of Alnico magnets and the number of winds.

 

 

.

[Whitmore Willy]

.The 496/500 are ceramic and send a strong high output signal to the amp. Loud. Scream. Great for driving a tube amp to distortion,

making a heavy distortion sound with a lot of crunch and rawness.

The Alnico pups tend give a more classic sound - warmer, depending on the grade of Alnico magnets and the number of winds..

 

Yup, you can see it in the numbers. Higher number, heavier drive.

My '76 Gibson L.P. has Pat. numbers and are very classic sounding. They come in at about 7.4k.

 

Gibson Burstbucker Pro (sim: BB1,Alnico5, potted) 7.4 KO

Gibson Burstbucker Pro (sim: BB2, Alnico5, potted) 8.0 KO

Gibson Burstbucker 1 (Alnico2) 7.5 KO

Gibson Burstbucker 2 (Alnico2) 8.0 - 8.4 KO

Gibson Burstbucker 3 (Alnico2) 8.2 - 8.8 KO

Gibson '57 Classic (Alnico5) 7.44 - 8.5 KO

Gibson '57 ClassicPlus (Alnico5) 9.0 - 13.8KO(the 9.0 appears to be a screw-up or faulty PU)

Gibson Dirty Fingers (2xCeramic) 16.0 -16.6 KO

Gibson Mini-humbucker (Alnico2) 6.0 - 6.4 KO

Gibson 490R (Alnico2) 7.2 - 7.83 KO

Gibson 490T (Alnico2) 7.9 - 8.53 KO

Gibson 498T (Alnico5) 12.32-13.46 KO

Gibson 496R (Ceramic) 8.3 - 8.63 KO

Gibson 500T (Ceramic) 14 – 15 KO

Gibson Angus Young (Alnico5) 13.5 KO

Gibson Tommy Iommi (Alnico2+Ceramic) 16.5 KO

Gibson Joe Perry(BB2&3?) (Alnico5) 8.4(neck)-8.8 KO(bridge)

Gibson Jimmy Page (Alnico5) 7-8 KO(not found yet, but I reckon within these values)

Gibson P-90R (Alnico5) 7.7 - 8.5 KO

Gibson P-90T (Alnico5) 7.8 - 9.35 KO

Gibson P-100R (Alnico5) 6.1 KO

Gibson P-100T (Alnico5) 9.4 - 16.0 KO

Gibson P-94R (Alnico5) 8.1 KO

Gibson P-94T (Alnico5) 9.1 KO

Gibson HB-R (Alnico5) 7.06 - 9.13 KO

Gibson HB-L (Alnico5) 13.39 - 15.3 KO

 

Willy

[Ryan H]

The Alnico pups tend give a more classic sound - warmer, depending on the grade of Alnico magnets and the number of winds.

 

Having owned an Epi LP with the "Alnico Classic" Humbuckers, I can say for sure that the Bridge pickup is far from "classic". Mine measured a whopping 13K. The neck was a more reasonable 7-8K.

 

At the very least, the Gibson pickups should have more definition at higher gain settings; ceramics tend to do that. The Alnico's tend to get muddy at very high gain settings.

 

-Ryan

[KVL]

.

The 496/500 are ceramic and send a strong high output signal to the amp. Loud. Scream. Great for driving a tube amp to distortion, making a heavy distortion sound with a lot of crunch and rawness.

 

The Alnico pups tend give a more classic sound - warmer, depending on the grade of Alnico magnets and the number of winds.

 

 

.

 

 

So if I understand this, the 496/500 conbo is such a higher output that its a great metal pup combo, and not as classic a sound, such as a GnR, Led Zep, Aerosmith, etc?

[Ryan H]

So if I understand this, the 496/500 conbo is such a higher output that its a great metal pup combo, and not as classic a sound, such as a GnR, Led Zep, Aerosmith, etc?

 

They can still do classic rock, such as the bands you stated. You would just want to turn down the "Gain" or "Drive" on your amp until it sounds right.

 

They should work fine for your application.

 

-Ryan

[Riffster]

So if I understand this, the 496/500 conbo is such a higher output that its a great metal pup combo, and not as classic a sound, such as a GnR, Led Zep, Aerosmith, etc?

 

Correct, you get more of a Ronnie James Dio, Metallica first record, Accept, some early to mid 80's Judas Priest kind of tones.

 

Heavy Metal tones if you will.

 

Many times I almost sold the set in my Explorer, then I bought a Marshall JCM1 and then I realized that these pickups needed to be matched to the correct amp.

[rct]

Correct, you get more of a Ronnie James Dio, Metallica first record, Accept, some early to mid 80's Judas Priest kind of tones.

 

Heavy Metal tones if you will.

 

Many times I almost sold the set in my Explorer, then I bought a Marshall JCM1 and then I realized that these pickups needed to be matched to the correct amp.

 

I have to agree with this. I'm a 496/98/500T hater from way back. 57 classics in my current Les Paul, never even plugged it in with the stockers, and my SG has 57s stock. But the 49whatevers in my Explorer are excellent, particularly through old Marshall DSL 401, and they gain up pretty well.

 

rct

[milod]

I'd tend not only to agree with a "match" with the amp, but also strings and pup setup as well as settings both on the guitar and on the amp.

 

Too often I've seen guys buy this or that in a store that sounded like what they wanted - then couldn't reproduce even close with their amp at home. In fact... <grin> I'm one of 'em.

 

Bottom line... I know different pups will get different sounds, but the "sound" overall has the pups as only part of it. I don't think I'd ever consider messing with the guitar as a first course of attack on achieving a given sound. That'd come only after exhausting settings on the amp and guitar and consideration of how the pickup is set to the strings. Even string choice and pickin' technique are major factors in one's "sound.' Even messing with wiring/pots can be a serious variable.

 

But then... don't ask how many guitars I've swapped in my first dozen years or so of playing electrics while looking for a specific sound for a specific band and the gigs we did.

 

I tend to look at it this way: The acoustic-only pickers also always are howling about finding "that" tone - and will spend bundles on nuts and bridges - even bridge pins - while trying to find the "right" sound. They try all sorts of strings. Oddly they seldom discuss specifics of technique, but...

 

So if that's true of acoustic guys, electric guys have all those variables but then also the onboard electronics, the cord that goes to the amp, and then the amp and its settings and even whether it's open or closed back and where and how it's facing...

 

<sigh>

 

Welcome to pickin'. "Upgrade?" Whatever floats your boat, my friend. I'll only say this: The past 30 years or so I've only bought guitar "types" sorted then for playability. The previous 20 or so years was a different story of constant swapping and "upgrading," not all of which left me at all happy now with choices I made back then.

 

m

[buliwyf]

Sounds like you would really dig a 57 classic in the neck and a 57 classic plus in the bridge.I have had several pairs of 57 classic PU's in different LP's over the years and just my opinion they have that great classic LP sound but can get down right nasty if needed.One of the reasons I love LP's is the singing/crying,sweet tone you can get from it especially from a 57 classic alnico pickup in the neck position.The bridge pickup the 57 classic plus is wound a bit hotter and can really wail or get that classic tone.I have had a couple of LP classics with the ceramic 496r and 500t and for down rite screaming rock to metal they are hot and being ceramic to me have a sharper tone but I have trouble getting that sweet,crying tone that a 57 classic can get.Just depends what sound your looking for but if you want a kind of old school LP sound/tone the 57 classics (in my opinion) are the way to go.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

This is all entirely subjective. You will only find out what pickups work best for you by trying them. The only thing these values tell you is the most, and least, likely candidates.

 

I would go as far as to say I wouldn't buy a guitar unless I liked the entire package because every pickup is different and each pickup will sound different if moved between two seemingly identical guitars, not to mention the amp, which makes it all but impossible to choose replacements off-the-shelf.

 

That in mind, may I ask what is "wrong" with your current pickups? What are you trying to achieve? There may be a better way of getting there.

[Riffster]

There may be a better way of getting there.

 

Not with Epiphone pickups, there isn't. Lol

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Not with Epiphone pickups, there isn't. Lol

 

Nothing wrong with mine.

 

The point is that the OP has asked questions to which the answers are subjective and require a description of sound, we all perceive sound differently and will certainly describe it differently. I thought it prudent to point that out and ask the actual goal, which is not information we have, nor do we know what amp he is using which, imo, has far more impact than comparing one humbucker with another. We do know the bands he likes but we don't know what direction he needs to go in to get there. Are the current pickups too hot, too cool, muddy, thin, dark, bright? For all we know he might be using a £30 POS amp or he could be using a £10,000 boutique beauty.

 

Using words like heavy, to describe a sound, also communicates very little actual information. To me a higher output pickup is not "heavier" per se, I would say "fuller" and "more sparkley". To me, "heavy" is something you get from amp choice and settings. but that's the point, you can't really describe a sound any more than you can describe a colour because the adjectives can only be used, let's say poetically, rather than factually.

 

Still, never mind, if the OP wants to "upgrade" his epi and is convinced that pickups are the way to go rather than consider tone caps, pot values and taper type, amp choice, string weight etc, etc, etc, who am I to tell him/her otherwise or ask questions to try to find out.

 

But, no one can effectively answer the question with the information we have, IMHO.

[Riffster]

He does actually mention especifically what bands he likes on a subsequent post. Hence some of the comments, answers and suggestions. It's not that complicated really.

 

P.S. his amp is on his signature.

[milod]

I think it's obvious that Farns and I are basically coming from the same position: there are too many variables involved immediately to swap pups on the assumption they will change everything so you can have the same "perceived" tone as someone in this or that band on this or that recording.

 

In today's dollars, I'll wager that between 1965 when I first started playing electrics for rock/country gigs and 1979 when I stopped "playing out" with major job changes, I'll wager that I spent the equivalent of $25-30,000 (possibly more) swapping guitars and amps and thinking in terms of matching guitars to style(s) being played in saloons to meet "perceived" audience expectations. As a weekend warrior, the switching, meals and fuel took most of the cash I "made" playing those saloons.

 

Funny thing is, in retrospect I didn't even make myself happy for more than a cupla months or so with the swaps and "tone" gamesmanship.

 

If it floats your boat to do anything to your own equipment or to buy new stuff at any price tag, that's fine by me.

 

But... figure that: Even in the past 10 years my own unbridled passionate GAS has resulted in one bass I don't like, a solidbody that's garbage and I don't even count as a guitar I own, 2 name brand AEs I don't care for, one name brand archtop that may be a wasted purchase, a bass amp I probably shouldn't have gotten instead of a bass cab for a great old Bassman head I have without a cab, a cupla mikes I wish I hadn't bought and a Leslie emulator I've played out a half dozen times in the past half dozen years.

 

That doesn't count stuff I still like more than a year after purchase like a nice standard Epi Dot for playing out in winter weather, 2 name brand AEs I do like, a mike I like, an amp I like, a multi-effect box that I like although I only use one setting with, an archtop I like, a 12-string I liked as an acoustic and added a magnetic pup to, two basses and a bass practice amp I do like... craploads of tuners and such...

 

Let's put it this way: I figure unless you can see the cash as tossed away from your personal "entertainment" budget as you would for a fancy dinner or dropping a batch of cash on lottery tickets or a blackjack table - or a high-priced concert or...

 

I think the point we're both trying to make is that there are many, many variables involved in the "tone" of an electric guitar. I know some guys have ignored my comments that it doesn't make much difference if playing in a venue with lousy acoustics and a lousy PA a lousy consideration of setting up for the best sound - and the whole band sounds like a mush of noise.

 

A good musician thinks not just of what he thinks he hears, but what he hopes his audience hears - and "even" with Epi pups, it's quite possible to get into the range of what secondary market humbuckers can do, or P90s if the guitar is so equipped.

 

If you're just beginning with electric, go slow, mess with pup height, guitar and amp settings. Mess with strings. Mess how and where you place your amp. (It'll sound different raised than it does on the floor. Honest.)

 

Do I think an ES175 sounds better than the little Eastman archtop I just got? Yupper. But through the same amp, with proper adujustment, how much difference will an audience hear? And how long would I be regretting taking the 175 out at -30C for a cupla bucks worth of gig, and damaged it, compared to the Eastman that's within 10 percent of the sound through a given amp and is almost as playable?

 

m

[Guest Farnsbarns]

He does actually mention especifically what bands he likes on a subsequent post. Hence some of the comments, answers and suggestions. It's not that complicated really.

 

P.S. his amp is on his signature.

 

I know, I even said so in my post. My point has obviously been missed. Never mind.

[Riffster]

I was simply restating what we do know and that you missed the info on his amplifier.

 

No your point wasn't missed, hence my comment about things not being complicated.

 

Getting in the ballpark of sound, or style of sound is good enough for most, after all it is hard to match evrrything that goes into the sound of a recording in the last 3 to 4 decades.

 

My jab at Epiphone humbuckers stems from the two Korean Epi Les Pauls I owned and sold, the pickups were always lacking to me no matter what adjustments I made so I can relate to the OP. I did love the P90s in my Casino and I bet the OP does too.

 

Like others suggested Classic 57 are the best choice in the Gibson line up for classic sounds, I love'em in my SG for sure.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

I did miss the amp info. I think that hits the nail on the head, a blues junior is not going to do it with any pickup unless the gain is got from a pedal. Changing this pedal is going to have far more impact than the pickups, changing the amp would ultimately be the best approach but I accept that's a different ballgame in terms of money.

[AXE®]

Ceramics vs Alnico

When I read that ceramic magnets sound harsh and alnico magnets sound sweet, I ask myself, " Who the hell preaches such nonsense?" There are harsh-sounding pickups with alnico magnets and sweet-sounding pickups with ceramic magnets and vice-versa! A magnet by itself has no sound, and as a part of a pickup, the magnet is simply the source to provide the magnetic field for the strings. The important factor is the design of a magnetic circuit which establishes what magnet to use.

 

Though ceramic magnets cost less than alnico magnets of equal size, a well-designed magnetic circuit using ceramic magnets costs much more than the six Alnico 5 magnets of a traditional single coil pickup!

 

Aging

 

Before the introduction of alnico magnets in 1935, permanent magnets were not quite that permanent. During a certain time, they lost a good amount of magnetism till they finally reached a stable condition. The process to accelerate this decay was called in the industry, "magnetic aging." In modern science, it is called "stabilizing." Since the �50's, we use Alnico 5 magnets which lose, under normal conditions, less then half a percent per 100 years.

How do we achieve normal conditions?

 

Alnico magnets are shipped by the manufacturer in a non-magnetized condition and will not be magnetized until a pickup is completed.

 

How to maintain normal conditions?

After magnetization, avoid any close contact with other pickups or magnets facing either north to north or south to south with their magnetic poles. Don't ever throw pickups random in a drawer; you may either use a keeper on each side of the magnetic poles or carefully place them with the north facing the south pole of the other magnet. ( For tele players, remember that the iron backplate of a traditional tele pickup functions as a keeper which increases the stability of the magnets.)

 

Once pickups are in a guitar, there is very little to worry about. That your pickups lose some of their magnetism when you lean your guitar against an amp is nothing but a fairy tale. Or, that pickups lose some of their magnetism when you drop them on a concrete floor is just another fairy tale -- alnicos and ferrites will break before they have any measurable losses. Magnets are sensitive to heat, but so is your guitar. However, heat can be a severe problem when an Alnico 5 magnet is exposed to temperatures above 1000 F, approaching its Curie temperature of 1634 F. At these temperatures, Alnico 5 undergoes structural changes and cannot be re-magnetized. Why do I mention this? Because it happens quite often, when someone doesn't like the unbalance in output of a pickup with staggered magnets and goes to a bench grinder or a belt sander to grind a magnet down. You take a chance that a magnet gets too hot and becomes damaged.

 

Copyright © 1996-2010 Bill Lawrence

 

A little tidbit.

[Riffster]

^^^i just bought a Jeff Waters V. It's on its way. I am curious about the ceramic 8 bridge pickup. I will A/B with the 500t and its ceramic 5 magnet

[AXE®]

8's & 5's work well together as do 2's and 5's.

[Riffster]

Oh yea, I meant I will A/B bridge pickups between the V and my Explorer.

 

The Jeff Waters V has an alnico 2 neck pickup, both bridge and neck pickups are Gibson USA on this V.

[KVL]

Thank you so much everyone... Seriously. I agree that using words to define sound is a slippery slope at best, since it's all subjective anyway.

 

I've spent 20 years drumming and can describe how the thickness of different drum skins effect tone and resonance, and how the shape of the stick's tip translates to the articulation of cymbal sounds. However, I'm only in my 2nd year of my guitar venture, and some of you guys were playing when christ was a schoolboy. :lol:

 

I went to my local GC last night and played a bunch of Gibson LP studios with different pup configurations to listen for the differences. There were ones with burstbuckers, a 490/490 combo, and there was one with a floyd rose trem and 490/496 I think, and an SG with 57's. I played the same riffs scales, etc., and all through a blues jr like mine.

 

The differences between them were subtle, at best, but all clearer than my epi. An open G chord would still ring nicely while overdriven without sounding muddy and distorted. (not to be confused with intentional distortion from a pedal)

 

Maybe I'll hold off for a while, and develop my fingers more. My kids will attest to the fact that I'm a PITA by cutting in to their Xbox time... "Dad's watching those stupid instructional videos again..."