tvguit Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Hypothetically speaking, if you walked into a shop to buy a new guitar and the only options you had were a wide grain top or a tight grain top, which would you choose? Why do you think that? Of course, in a guitar there is no way to narrow down that one category and say that is why one guitar sounds better than the other. I understand that. I was just wondering what everyone else thought on this subject. I used to think that on average a tight grained Spruce top would produce a better tone. Now, I'm not so sure and here is why. I was talking with Modoc_333 the other day and he quoted Ren Ferguson on this subject: "The dark grain lines in a top are where the sap is holding the layers of wood together, almost like glue. Would you rather have a top made out of mostly glue or mostly wood?" This quote is paraphrased but is the basic gist of what he said. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I would buy the one that sounded better to my ear, irrespective of which had the wider or narrower grain in the top. This assumes they are both the same type of guitar, having the same strings of the same age, when I did the side-by-side comparison. And I'd do the comparisons blindfolded. I've got guitars with wide grain adi tops, tight-grain adi tops, wide-grain sitka tops, and tight-grain sitka tops. I honestly don't think you can objectively separate out the effect of grain width on the final tone. Remember that wood cut from the same tree will have different grain widths depending on where in the cutting sequence the piece of wood is taken. How about another answer option such as "not sure"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvguit Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 This is a hypothetical question that assumes you can rule out every other variable. You must choose one without playing it and there are no returns. Which one and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 If I had to GUESS, I would guess wider grained, as for the ones I like, it seems to be more often the case. But I would say, I certainly would not reley on that, because it's proven to be the wrong guess on my part plenty of times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I have heard it said that a good looking top would have a wider grain at the center becoming tighter toward the edges ? Seems somewhat redundant though listening to replies. My HB has a lovely even grain getting slightly tighter at edges, book matched very nicely... she sounds good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 When it comes to this kind of stuff there are tons of generalizations and even more exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I have heard it said that a good looking top would have a wider grain at the center becoming tighter toward the edges ? I believe the theory would reverse that. If you look at a really well-made violin you will see a tight grain at the center widening towards the outer bouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I believe the theory would reverse that. If you look at a really well-made violin you will see a tight grain at the center widening towards the outer bouts. Cheers zomby I thought I may have had it the wrong way round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasAK Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Which one have more "glue" ? The wider grain usually has thicker sap lines, while the tighter grain has thinner ones but more of them. My local 5 star dealer had an 07 j45TV, or whatever it was call at that time. I was excited about playing it but came away disappointed. It was said to have an adi top, but the grain was one of the tightest I have ever seen. It sounded very balanced and was responsive but it was also very thin sounding. The bass did not seem to have much depth, the mids were fairly even, and the highs were there but nothing sweet or exciting. Again the guitar was very balanced. But with all the variables involved, was it due to the tight grain top, or just the characteristicof that particular piece of wood? The guitar also sported two small cracks in the top by the neck. This was due to their humidifier malfunctioning. I passed on the guitar. In my mind the wider grain is going to have a greater, or stronger, bass response. But with wood all things are never equal. I like a fairly strong bass response (I like the woody tone but a little roundness is okwith me), a good healthy mid range, and sweet sounding highs. I like the guitar to sound mellow and sweet, with the ability to bark and sound mean when I want it to (especially in the mids)! For the most part my j45mc fits the bill. I think I wish it was a little more open and woody (or dry) sounding, but it has the sweetness I like. My guitar has tighter grain in the center getting wider as toward the edges of the bout. The grain is also somewhat uneven in its pattern. I voted for wider grain. chasAK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvguit Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 This discussion came about after Modoc showed me a particularly good sounding Martin Golden Era D-18 that happened to have a very wide grain top. That is when he told me about what Ren thought on the subject. Ren has played a couple of guitars in his time so I have to give him some credibility . What he said kind of makes sense to me but I know very little of forestry. Is anyone on here an expert? Would saying that a grain line is similar to glue be mostly accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasAK Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Frets.com has a couple short and simplistic articles on tonewoods and grain. chasAK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I wouldn't base a deal on this (use the ears), but Its been side wide grain favors low and, tight grain the top end. Tight grain is valued in some circles for its looks, but the great Steve James has said that a guitar with top that "looks like it was stripped off the side of a barn will kill small animals at fifty paces", or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Tight grained spruce definately...but ...if the maker follows a set recipe of build, and does not thin this more rigid tighter grained top..you is screwed. Here is one with wood that is repulsive wide. Almost as wide as the spacing of the strings. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Martin-Custom-Shop-CS0018V-Acoustic-Guitar-With-Case-/290777124041?pt=Guitar&hash=item43b3aaccc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I wouldn't base a deal on this (use the ears), but Its been side wide grain favors low and, tight grain the top end. Tight grain is valued in some circles for its looks, but the great Steve James has said that a guitar with top that "looks like it was stripped off the side of a barn will kill small animals at fifty paces", or something like that. That sounds more like Jesse James.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchristo Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I think the tight grain looks the best, but I want the one that sounds the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I had always thought that tight grain was better for guitars. An internationally renowned violin maker friend of mine (http://clemensviolins.com/) says wide grain is better for violins. Who's to argue with a violin maker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I was just thinking about this today. I've had Adirondack and Sitka spruce guitars. and after a lot of consideration, I do believe I actually like the "sound" of Sitka better. Adirondack sounds too bright for my ears. Sitka a little warmer....But both are good....just to my ear...Sitka sounds better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Tight grained spruce definately...but ...if the maker follows a set recipe of build, and does not thin this more rigid tighter grained top..you is screwed. That's an interesting observation. The 1968 top on my 1948 J-45 has very tight grain. It has received two very heavy sandings during re-finishes--once in 1970, once in 2010--and each time, the tone and volume have measurably changed for the better. Grain width does have an impact on the tranverse stiffness of a piece of wood, and may be one of the great variables in determining tone. But it is only one component of the package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 That sounds more like Jesse James.. . Heh. Source quote: "Here's a generalization based on our observations at Gryphon, IF ALL OTHER THINGS ARE EQUAL, that is, if we're talking about guitars of the same model, size and detail of construction, by the same maker, with the same neck angle,bridge height, top thickness, species of top wood, age, then it appears: A wide grain top will tend to produce stronger bass response..there are fewer stiff grain lines so the top is more flexible. A narrow grain top will have comparatively stronger treble and more subtle bass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 It is almost a bit weird to be discussing quality of wood on a Gibson forum. The obsession with lumber seems to be a modern thing. In the past Gibson appeared none too picky about what wood they used other than that selected for their highest dollar insruments like the SJ-200 and Super 400. You can see some of the craziest grained tops you will ever run across on those early A mandolins. A friend of mine back in Mississippi has a Smeck Rio Grande which I swear has Braz Rosewood sides but an Indian Rosewood back and a top which by todays standards would not even come close what we would consider the best quality. If you got any flame in a maple body it was by luck of the draw rather than design. I am guessing those guys knew that how a board looked was not the best indication of how a finished guitar would sound. Then again, maybe they were just a thrifty bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Zomby...a lot of guys overly concerned about their wood.... It is almost a bit weird to be discussing quality of wood on a Gibson forum. The obsession with lumber seems to be a modern thing. In the past Gibson appeared none too picky about what wood they used other than that selected for their highest dollar insruments like the SJ-200 and Super 400. You can see some of the craziest grained tops you will ever run across on those early A mandolins. A friend of mine back in Mississippi has a Smeck Rio Grande which I swear has Braz Rosewood sides but an Indian Rosewood back and a top which by todays standards would not even come close what we would consider the best quality. If you got any flame in a maple body it was by luck of the draw rather than design. I am guessing those guys knew that how a board looked was not the best indication of how a finished guitar would sound. Then again, maybe they were just a thrifty bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 If there was an option, I'd select both. But since I can't, I selected neither which is just as appropriate in my opinion. To further muddy the waters, for whatever reason, the Gibsons that have won me over have all featured sitka spruce tops. Conversely, the Martins that I've bought had adirondack spruce tops. Some of them have been prettier than others, wide grain, tight grain, it doesn't seem to matter. When it comes to tone, I like what I like and none of this stuff really seems to make any difference. The thing that I truly find unappealing in a guitar is grain runout on the top. Ironically, I've spent most of my playing time recently with my AJ, which is the one guitar I own that I bought in spite of the runout. I liked the way it sounded when I bought it and I still do. Fortunately I can't see the guitar when I'm playing it, but I can hear it just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvguit Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 The thing that I truly find unappealing in a guitar is grain runout on the top I can agree with that. I don't like seeing runout on a top. That wouldn't stop me from buying a good guitar though. Just an after thought really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 When buying new guitars, I always have to resort to buying long distance. I try to pick the guitars with the best looking tops, but not because I think they sound better. If I can't play a guitar before paying, why not pick the best looking one possible? I like even grain without runout, and, grain width is of secondary importance. Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Either wide or tight grain can produce an appealing tone, and I own guitars with both. What unfortunately turns me off in a huge way is moderate to severe runout. Wish I were not so wired into this visual hit, but I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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