Gibson and Fender copies

[SteveFord]

Both Gibson and Fenders have made tons of inexpensive instruments and the used market is flooded with them. I don't see why you wouldn't just buy one of them, instead. Heck, my LP Studio was only $600 with a case and it's a great guitar, I've bought used SG Specials for $400 - why would I buy a copy?

[milod]

Actually Taurus and Smith - as well as Taurus and Beretta - have been rather closely interlinked in terms not just of ownership but even of machine tools and swapping back and forth of design. And what then of Ruger and its SAA versions, not to mention double action revolvers? Does the Colt traditional double action "copy" the concept of the Smith or vice versa? Again, what of Ruger or for a Smith "fan," what of the Dan Wesson revolver?

 

Smith and Wesson's Model 1 pretty much "stole" the idea of a revolver after Colt's patent ran out. Then everybody else started to use White's concept of the bored-through cylinder for various designs of revolvers.

 

The Remington Patent of 1858 had a topstrap as did the little Smith Model 1 - albeit without the odd "opening" for the original Smith's cylinder to be removed and the expended cartridges to be ejected.

 

Then the Colt pretty much copied the Remington because it was an obviously stronger design, although with the handle geometry of the 1851 Colt Navy, and... Frankly the Colt SAA handles faster/better than the similar cartridge Remington revolvers, but I think the latter were more accurate. And the Ruger "copies" of the Colt SAA are much stronger as well as being quite accurate.

 

Bottom line with revolvers after roughly 1860 is that everybody was copying everybody else and adding their little proprietary twists.

 

Exactly as guitar manufacturers have done.

 

Don't get me wrong, a S&W Model 36 is one of my go-to depending on weather. But otherwise much depends exactly on weather and specific purpose whether my "carry" would be a SAA Ruger, a 4-inch first-model Ruger DA with my own grip design or a rather nice little Taurus with an alloy frame or... a Model 10 S&W with a bit of added refinement. I dumped my 8 3/8 BB scoped Mod. 27 Smith ages ago as being impractical for what I was doing.

 

m

[stein]

Thank you. Well put.

 

You either 'get it' or you don't. All I'm saying is there's no way I'd own a Taurus; I'll save my money and get the Smith and Wesson it tried to copy.

I get it.

 

Not only would I not want a Taurus made copy of the Barreta 9mm, I wouldn't even have the Barreta. I'd have the 1911.

 

The 9mm isn't even an American round, it's European. If I wanted a 9, I'd get a Browning Hi-Power or a CZ-75.

 

BUT...I would get a Colt copy from those Uburti/Cimmerron folks in .45 Colt, and shoot black powder or genuine .45 power rounds without being anal about cleaning like I would a Colt. But, I would NOT get a Colt in .44 Mag to replace my Ruger Blackhawk. Nor would I get a Ruger in .45 Colt.

 

I think, it's a matter of taste. Not only personal taste, but how MUCH taste or if at all any taste is involved.

 

To me, copies and look-alikes are often just in bad taste, depending on the intent.

 

I think, going to a particular Guitar Center, having about 4 higher-end Gibby's and 300-400 hundred OK and cheapy guitars and no "good" amps is poor taste.

[milod]

Ah... now we come to it.

 

It's a matter of what trips our trigger. <grin> Taurus turned back as many upgrades for the Smith mechanism as Smith offered them, and both were a while under the same corporate umbrella.

 

Even the 1911 was an improved version of earlier Browning designs. And the 1911a1 a not insignificant variant manufactured later by all sorts of U.S. firms as well as Colt. The design has a number of flaws. Heck, for most intents, so do most slide-type semi-automatics compared to such as various revolvers and even toggle type (such as Luger) designs.

 

I have one for giggles and plan to have it rebuilt by Barsto regardless that the work will cost more than the original. Right now I'm happier with revolvers for a number of reasons. I have Ruger, Smith and Taurus (both SA and DA Rugers) that would do for deer hunting. Ditto the variation of a cartridge conversion for a stainless Italian "copy" of a Remington '58 Army that handles .45 Long Colt.

 

Browning, btw, made a number of changes in his designs after the 1911. One must note too that the Browning Hi Power was designed for the parabellum.

 

Anyway... each to his own. My wife despises semis in any form. Knows how to use 'em, but wants no part of 'em. She prefers Smith design DA types, either 5 or 6 shooters in .357.

 

What fits your hands, eyes, and is appropriate to one's usage? Billy the Kid used a horrid Colt DA design but...

 

For accurate shooting, frankly my cartridge conversion '58 Remington .44 cap 'n' ball to .45 LC is about as good as anything I own or have shot, including that scoped S&W Model 27 with the 8 3/8 inch barrel. It just ain't particularly fast handling.

 

Firearms, IMHO, are rather similar to guitars in that there are so many variants available that offer different geometries and concepts.

 

If one wishes to add "brands," fine. The Kimber and S&W 1911 "copies" ain't at all anything to spit at. Nor are quality-by-intent "copies" of other guitar designs.

 

Seriously, I have nothing at all against Gibson but... I don't care for the LP, and don't care for larger archtops. One "big box" acoustic pretty well meets my big box acoustic needs excluding 12-strings but... I prefer smaller body short scale flattops.

 

All archtops functionally copy Gibsons. All big box flattops functionally copy Martins. That includes Gibson. So... do you prefer a J45 or a D28? Why?

 

m

[RickGibsonDenver]

Maybe a bit of an extreme simile going on here:

 

If a cheap guitar fails, it's embarrassing or inconvenient, if your side arm fails, your dead.

[milod]

Rick...

 

Not necessarily. Not if you're deer hunting or even competing in target games.

 

I doubt an Epi will fail on stage statistically more significantly than a Gibson, all else being equal.

 

But even the best 1911 design can and does fail sufficiently that training includes how to handle such failure. Yet the design is considered quite good regardless that a problem with the magazine, ammunition type, barrel bushing and limp hold can cause a malfunction that's largely user-based.

 

User-based failures are IMHO also the most likely difficulty with almost any guitar, acoustic or electric if it's at all playable.

 

Other arguments regarding quality whether for guitars or firearms also have more than a small quantity of subjective considerations.

 

m

[ErickC]

Ehh.... the Les Paul is such a derivative guitar that I have a hard time seeing how it really matters in its case anyway. It's just a rounded-off solid body "insert Gibson cutaway artchtop electric here" with a greatly reduced size and different mortise and tenon -style. The Gibson cutaway archtop electrics in turn are just further evolutions of Orville Gibson's first archtop guitars and mandolins, which in turn borrowed from violins and earlier guitars dating back to the birth of the Spanish guitar. There is nothing new or special about the Les Paul's shape or general configuration. Not in 1952, not today. That's probably where most of the appeal really is, whether people choose to admit it or not - the concept was new (sort of), but the shape was both classic and familiar.

[stein]

Ah... now we come to it.

 

It's a matter of what trips our trigger. <grin>

I love the guns analogy.

 

There are different reasons for the term "copy". The arms technology you so well describe, a matter of each trying to build the better version, regardless of who came up with what.

 

The guitar version, the example of Gretch, Guild, Fender and Gibby all coming up with THIER versions of the "ultimate", or the better guitar.

 

THEN there are the "copies", meaning made to appeal to the uninitiated. The Strat look-alikes with changes to this and that for patent infringement purposes, but made and sold with the intent that the buyer will perhaps like the price and the looks comparing to the "original". For those that may not know the difference.

 

Tastes: Personal taste, AND choosing to show taste. A guitar player, however skilled, will know what he likes or wants to use, depending on what works for him. So, he may choose this brand or that for any given type based on what appeals to himself. But, the guy who sports a Chinese forgery of a Gibson, knowing it IS a forgery, shows no account for taste. Doesn't have any.

 

Where is the line to be drawn? Judging personal taste, can't really do that. But, one can judge one on choosing to show taste. Of corse, that is a judgment call.

 

So, a shop that has nothing but off-brands in all forms and types, and of lower quality, to me might show a lack of respect to the buyer and makers and inventers of the designs they are copying. I might start to judge that shop, make my own judgement that it's perhaps in bad taste.

 

GUNS:...maybe I should split-post.

[stein]

Ah... now we come to it.

 

It's a matter of what trips our trigger. <grin> Taurus turned back as many upgrades for the Smith mechanism as Smith offered them, and both were a while under the same corporate umbrella.

 

Even the 1911 was an improved version of earlier Browning designs. And the 1911a1 a not insignificant variant manufactured later by all sorts of U.S. firms as well as Colt. The design has a number of flaws. Heck, for most intents, so do most slide-type semi-automatics compared to such as various revolvers and even toggle type (such as Luger) designs.

 

I have one for giggles and plan to have it rebuilt by Barsto regardless that the work will cost more than the original. Right now I'm happier with revolvers for a number of reasons. I have Ruger, Smith and Taurus (both SA and DA Rugers) that would do for deer hunting. Ditto the variation of a cartridge conversion for a stainless Italian "copy" of a Remington '58 Army that handles .45 Long Colt.

 

Browning, btw, made a number of changes in his designs after the 1911. One must note too that the Browning Hi Power was designed for the parabellum.

 

Anyway... each to his own. My wife despises semis in any form. Knows how to use 'em, but wants no part of 'em. She prefers Smith design DA types, either 5 or 6 shooters in .357.

 

What fits your hands, eyes, and is appropriate to one's usage? Billy the Kid used a horrid Colt DA design but...

 

For accurate shooting, frankly my cartridge conversion '58 Remington .44 cap 'n' ball to .45 LC is about as good as anything I own or have shot, including that scoped S&W Model 27 with the 8 3/8 inch barrel. It just ain't particularly fast handling.

 

Firearms, IMHO, are rather similar to guitars in that there are so many variants available that offer different geometries and concepts.

 

If one wishes to add "brands," fine. The Kimber and S&W 1911 "copies" ain't at all anything to spit at. Nor are quality-by-intent "copies" of other guitar designs.

 

Seriously, I have nothing at all against Gibson but... I don't care for the LP, and don't care for larger archtops. One "big box" acoustic pretty well meets my big box acoustic needs excluding 12-strings but... I prefer smaller body short scale flattops.

 

All archtops functionally copy Gibsons. All big box flattops functionally copy Martins. That includes Gibson. So... do you prefer a J45 or a D28? Why?

 

m

Can I add the term "marksman"?

 

A marksman, however skilled, will be aware of what he may be shooting and how to do it. As opposed to the one who buys a gun and assumes it will work, but just wants to have it.

 

I think the Taurus/Smith comment above was aimed at those who may go in for a revolver of the Smith DA type, and choose the Taurus made look-alike instead based on price or a "cool" feature that may affect the looks not really knowing anything about it. As opposed to a guy like you, who as a marksman, will use/carry the thing and knows what he is buying and why. You know what this or that "feature" is.

 

Me: I'm a single-action guy all the way. I have no use for a DA in any form because I am never going to pull the trigger without the hammer back. It's easier. I personally could not keep the gun aimed at something while I pull on a DA trigger as fast or as well as pulling the hammer back then the trigger. Not that I am that fast, I ain't. But practiced enough to know and possibly feel confident I can aim and shoot that way as well as most would hit the same pulling DA.

 

So...perhaps personal taste here, I say that a single-action revolver IS a serious and responsible choice for self-defence. Conventional thinking these days says double action.

 

As for a Semi: I might be talking out my other mouth a bit, as I MUCH prefer a SA revolver. But reality, for a concealed carry, a Semi has advantages of being slim. And truth is, I don't really like the way most 1911's shoot or fit my hand. Some of the modded ones, maybe. But, the main thing, I know how they work, know where everything is. I also know full well MOST are unreliable in certain ways unless worked on/modified.

 

Which again, brings me to "opinion" on taste and other peoples taste. Is it cool for gun shops to sell "standard" 1911 models to the un-knowing? That's one thing.

 

Another, there are SO many semi's on the market with so many different modes of operation. For a true carry gun (it's intended use?), it is VITAL a guy knows how it works and where everything is. A friend of mine got his out of his truck the other day, and I handed it back because I didn't know exactly how to unload it or check it. HE didn't know either, had to remember. Took him literally 30 seconds to figure out it had a full clip and none in the chamber. Had it been in use? But also, there doesn't seem to be a "standard" anymore on how they work and where everything is.

 

Personally, I kinda thinks it's wrong, that so many people have so many neat guns, but don't know how they work. To ME, that's "bad taste" in the gun culture. Not saying everyone who has a gun should spend lots of time at the range learning how to shoot well. But rather, all the bells and whistles designed to make the gun "safe" or better seems to trump the emphasis that one should know how to make it work (properly).

 

A marksman (Milod's markswoman) knowing what they like and don't like, however strong an opinion, that's "TASTE". Knowing and using basic gun safety, to me, is far, FAR more tasteful than being able to shoot in the circle. But all these newer technologically advance only-the-shooter-can-use guns or guns only the shooter can figure out, that to me I think is a gun with bad taste.

[Marshall Paul]

I am part french, but I don't speak it, nor do I know any toad.. I'm an Ahh-Murican!!

bonjour monsieur enfant explosion,

moi toujours pensée tous Américains étaient juste Ahh Mexicains avec chandails, oui?

[4Hayden]

 

Can't see why that would bother anyone.... Well unless someone did that to a guitar you own without asking you first... lol...

 

when done right, I can appreciate the art behind it.... But in the end as long as the person can play I'm jamming with, I could care less what they do to their guitars

All I'm saying is a guitar left original will have better resale value , but someone making money off what another has designed is another story

[RickGibsonDenver]

Rick...

 

Not necessarily. Not if you're deer hunting or even competing in target games...

 

I've never taken a deer with a side arm, but I have taken a few pigs, and that was while being charged, so yeah, life threatening. 99.9% of my side arm activity involves a CCP, and I pray to never go there, but that too would be life threatening.

 

I will agree with you that most failures are user caused, unless you're carrying something cheaply made, like my Kel Tec P3AT (.380 auto), which I won't sell, because then I could be the cause of someone else demise, it jams that often, straight out of the box. Or consider my Bobcat MP5, I rarely run through a 30 round mag without a jam, and it's the definition of a cheap knock-off. A cheap knock-off hand gun could get you killed. A guitar now, unless you've done some bad wiring, AND are standing in a puddle...or front row at a death metal show...or meet "El Kabong".......... a cheap knock-off guitar shouldn't get you killed.

 

I used to make a living with firearms, so I don't like putting them in the same category as something benign as a guitar. I'd think some vets might agree. That's my own humble opinion.

[Marshall Paul]

Agree

[kidblast]

bonjour monsieur enfant explosion,

moi toujours pensée tous Américains étaient juste Ahh Mexicains avec chandails, oui?

 

 

not a clue Paul! not a clue!! :)

[badbluesplayer]

Yeah - I wouldn't own a knock off guitar if you paid me.

 

And I wouldn't go packin' heat if my stomach flab totally covered the gun when it was stuck in my belt. Talk about ruining the holidays - I saw some guy at the gas station the other day pulling up his gut with one hand so he could scratch around his gun with the other. Real manly!

[Searcy]

Lol! Under the belly roll. Now that's conceled carry.

[Markini]

Well when I buy for example a handgun. I research it, go to the range , discuss with professionals and always buy a weapon with a proven record of no misfires say out of 500 rounds. I pay the bucks.

 

On the other hand when I buy a guitar, I play it first regardless of make, import or home grown then make my decision.

 

I think using guitars and guns as examples is not a good analogy. Guitars don't misfire, dirty guitars still play, a dirty or fouled gun is an accident waiting to happen.

 

Colt and Sig Saur is what I trust and Gibson and Fenders (and some PRS) are the guitars I trust.

 

 

 

[milod]

Rick...

 

There are significant similarities in learning any motor skill with or without additional "equipment." Granted, there are huge differences in purpose, philosophy and danger that don't compare. Training, does.

 

I've only had my hand on a firearm twice in self defense, in both cases while trying to figure a way to get away from feral dog packs in the middle of nowhere. Luckily I didn't have to use it; it wouldn't have been enough even if perfectly shot.

 

My little brother retired a cupla years ago after some 42 years in law enforcement including SWAT, training others in a number of law enforcement subjects, and even an interesting sojourn into a countersniper sort of role for locals and feds in a mountain area he likely knows/knew better than any other five folks.

 

We talked a lot about a lot of training issues from our somewhat different sets, and about firearms training and other defense tactics types of training and retraining. Both of us had been trainees, trainers and trainers of trainers.

 

Our talks have been a lot of "fun" because his needs and my mostly recreational firearms needs were quite different - and since he's southpaw, his preferences as well.

 

But both guitar and firearms for serious social intercourse do have similarities in training, and in "un-training" for differing "instruments." His longtime use of an ambidextrous 1911 variant vs. a Glock required a degree of muscle memory change. So does changing a type/shape of guitar and/or style of playing.

 

Granted, his need to quickly, safely and yet unconsciously prepare a firearm for use is far different from playing a guitar quickly and unconsciously, but the principles of training aren't at all that different.

 

BTW, I'm not all that skilled or talented in comparison to others I know in either guitar playing or competition shooting - but RE the SAA vs. current popular autos, I watched as a bottom level rangemaster as a law enforcement team with semiauto pistols, pistol caliber semiauto carbines and pump shotguns competed with a cowboy action shooting team with pre-1900 equipment and SA revolvers. Granted, the rules were CAS rules, but the CAS guys shot faster and with a shade better accuracy than the law enforcement guys and, as far as I could tell, both teams had roughly equal practice on the same CAS range through the year. The SAA ain't slow for them as knows it.

 

Again, though, yeah, one doesn't depend on a guitar for survival, but training and retraining still is a matter of muscle memory being developed for whatever skill set is being promoted. In our case as guitarists, and/or guitar teachers, a good curriculum has similarities to Bruce Siddle's Human Factor Research Group teaching practice of muscle memory skills and handling stresses of performance.

 

<grin> Remember the Lamb Method that once was a "better idea" but went outa style due to potential damage to the subject, then Siddle's PPCT training that has grown and developed since the mid early and mid '80s? "The neural basis of learning, and the stimulus response training principle... The basic principles and procedures covered in this program can be applied to firearms, defensive tactics, aerosol weapons, batons, or virtually any other type of physical skill training..." That ain't changed that much in concept and fits guitar playing too.

 

m

[Markini]

I grew up in the southwest, I sure do miss the open desert and mountains at times. In 30 minutes I could be in the middle of nowhere and have a place to practice with my firearms. I did indoor shooting, some range training, and of course qualified with a .45 in the Navy.

 

In Texas and New Mexico me and my buddies could be outside of civilization in no time flat, and "plink" all we wanted. I'm about 60 miles from any real 'still kinda open' desert here in LA. Anyway I have a strong attachment for the desert besides shooting.

 

Totally agree with Milod on the eye hand coordination repetition and practice with guns and guitars. Number one thing I am paranoid about firearms is safety and other people in my vicinity carrying firearms.

 

Milod:: When I was 11 yrs old my brothers and friends and I had to walk home from school a mile through the desert. neighborhoods hadn't been built out yet. And got stalked by a feral pack of dogs. We would never turn our backs on them and threw rocks at them. If you have no rocks nearby hold your arms and hands up and act as big as possible. We were scared Sh#tless but tried not to show it.

 

RCT: They aren't toads they are Coneheads.

 

I have never had to use a fire arm in self defense, but did own a 1948 J45 with patched bullet hole back side only which was odd.

 

I have been fired upon twice , but that's another story. Same as when I was robbed for $10 at gun point, another story.

 

Been practicing a lot of Standard slide lately, pretty tough going I must say.

 

 

[milod]

Markini...

 

Dunno if you're old enough to remember, but back in the '70s I recall a number of firearms magazines ran stories on the dangers of going out to take down feral dog packs they called the most dangerous hunting in North America. Just a cupla weeks ago on a relatively nearby tribal reservation a little girl was killed by such a dog pack - and the tribal government finally went after them regardless of urban criticism of "murdering pets" as if the girl and other people don't really matter and feral and wild dogs packs hunting for livestock and ... whatever ... are just fine as long as it's out in the boonies.

 

A lady rancher friend started "carrying" a year or so ago when she discovered she was being stalked by a mountain lion. City folk commented on what a bumpkin she proved herself to be. Then this past week a lion took out some "pets" in our nearby "big city" that caused a degree of consternation. I figure we may lose a kid to a lion along a creek that runs through that "city" that will put a fib to the "they're not dangerous, just big kitties" folks.

 

Never been robbed at gunpoint, don't care to be. Have had bullets coming my direction and arms pointed at me at "can't miss" range. Didn't care for either.

 

I used to do quite a bit of slide in open G tuning - but that's 40 years ago and in the "folkie" sorta thing of the era instead of current perceptions of it. Way different. Great fun as I recall - but that's ages ago.

 

I put in eight years in a city. It was more than enough.

 

m

[Markini]

D Ray I agree.

 

Got to admit some of those Licensed 'MIJ" Strats were the cat's meow. I used to collect guitars, been done with that for about year. I have my USA made Fenders, Gibsons and PRS models.

 

Lately though I have been exclusively playing my real lightweight body Chinese body style Strats that I upgrade with a licensed USA Fender neck, tuners, noiseless Pups, switchcraft, etc. I just use the MIN bodies only everything else is USA. They weigh about 4 1/2 lbs and are kick to play, Especially noticeable after jamming on my LP CC . Anyway I guess my point is variety is the spice of life.

 

Milod: Yeah I graduated HS 1970. Feral dogs are especially wily due to their previous contact with humans, unlike wolves are mountain lions. As a pack they are very clever under the leadership of the alpha. The smartest dogs tend to be the leaders regardless of size or ferocity, it usually due to it's ability to adapt to change. These packs will even use flanking maneuvers on their intended prey, very similar to military tactics. Very dangerous to hunt I would think, at least on foot, I imagine a horse or helicopter sniping to be the logical choice.

 

I enjoy playing slide in the open keys for instance G. Much easier than standard tuning and more forgiving on unmuted notes and over tones. Playing slide in standard tuning for me anyway requires much more precision and muting and single picking the strings. Very rewarding when you get the licks down just right. Different tone. But I like the open tunings just as much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Markini]

Always liked that sunburst motif on the Strats. Yours is a beauty.

 

Very cool Gibby you got there. I like. Something about that LP tone.. You know it immediately.

 

 

 

[Marshall Paul]

I enjoy playing slide in the open keys for instance G. Much easier than standard tuning and more forgiving on unmuted notes and over tones. Playing slide in standard tuning for me anyway requires much more precision and muting and single picking the strings. Very rewarding when you get the licks down just right. Different tone. But I like the open tunings just as much.

 

You want to make it easy on your slide playing there Mark, have a try at the Duanne Allman/Joe Walsh de-tune. I've always played slide in both 440 and this key. The de-tune's a blast.

6th E 5th B 4th E 3rd G# 2nd B 1st E

You'll love it.

[Markini]

Marshall: Thanks for the tip. I usually don't like to tune up. But I will give it try. I play fairly comfortably in a few open keys in slide already. Most times 'D' and use a capo to tune up.

 

I am trying out standard tuning to stretch myself.

 

 

 

[Marshall Paul]

not a clue Paul! not a clue!! :)

 

 

LOL[biggrin]