Acoustic guitars "opening up"

[SD1992]

Hi everyone, first post here :)

 

I am in the extremely fortunate position where I am looking to buy a very nice acoustic guitar. I took a trip down to Guitar Guitar in Edinburgh and played lots of very fine instruments and have narrowed down my choices a little!

 

A Gibson Hummingbird is very near the top of my list, and I really liked the one that I played. However, I also played a used (about 5/6 year old) Sheryl Crow signature which I am pretty sure is the same as the Hummingbird apart from colour / scratchplate and it sounded very different.

 

It was much louder and had a much "fuller" sound, which I thought was surprising. The guy in the shop said that the Hummingbird would sound like that after a few years once it had "opened up", is that the case? Do acoustic guitars really change that much over a few years of playing?

 

I did love the Hummingbird, but I can't quite decide between that or a Martin D35 / HD35!

 

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. Cheers :)

[milod]

Yes to any fine acoustic guitar made of solid woods "opening up."

 

As to which...

 

Gibsons tend to do better in the mids than Martins that tend to be a little bass-ier to me and many others.

 

You don't say what you have been playing, either, or what style of playing.

 

I'm personally very much a "feel" guy even more than price tag or brand. If a guitar speaks to you, and seems to help you play, there's a certain something that makes it far more valuable than price, and others made of "superior" ingredients seem to be of lesser value. I think also that the sounds from one's playing will be improved or lessened by that "feel" perhaps more than the instrument's intrinsic qualities or in a sense, its extrinsic qualities.

 

In short... it's personal. Which guitar helps you play and pleases your hands, your playing geometry and your heart?

 

m

[zombywoof]

I have nothing to offer in the way of opinions as to which guitar would work for you. Depends on your style, what music you like to play, what sound you have in your head and such. Picking guitars is as much a learning process as getting into the music.

 

With regards to "opening up" the passage of time will change a guitar's voice. It will not, however, change the basic character of that voice. A guitar that does not have a lot of power or presence or lacks a big dry low end is not going to magically acquire these traits as the years pass. The only way to go about it is buy the guitar that you like the sound and feel of that day.

[milod]

I think Zombie and I were saying almost exactly the same thing with a bit of personal perspective in how we view guitars, but his bottom line and mine are the same:

 

"The only way to go about it is buy the guitar that you like the sound and feel of that day."

 

m

[blindboygrunt]

What's the Sheryl crow going to sound like when its 'opened up' then ?

[SD1992]

Ah yes, I probably should have talked a bit about my playing style etc. I am mainly an electric player, but I am getting more and more into the acoustic. I do a lot of strumming and flat picking, and very occasionally finger-style stuff.

 

As for type of music, well basically anything from classic rock to modern country. Think Eric Clapton unplugged, the Eagles acoustic stuff, Zac Brown Band etc. I can't sing unfortunately, but I often accompany a singer and play instrumental parts every now and then.

 

I am no brand snob - I played lots of guitars in the shop ignoring price and make, but I have to say the Hummingbird was the best Gibson (to me) that I played. I love the way that it plays and sounds, but it was massively different from the Martins that I played as far as sound goes, and it sounded quite different to the Sheryl Crow one that I played.

 

I didn't like the Taylor or Moon guitars as much, I am not sure what it was but they just didn't feel "right".

 

As I said before, I am mainly an electric player so the concept of a guitar changing in sound over time is completely alien to me so I wanted to hear the views of other more experienced acoustic players!

[onewilyfool]

I'm kind of the mind set that.....you buy a guitar because you like the PRESENT sound. "Futuring" about the sound possibilities with new strings, new pins, new saddle and nut, and "opening up".....may only be wishful thinking. I've been to a lot of "VINTAGE" guitar shows (don't go anymore) and most of the guitars are just OLD, don't sound good, need lots of repairs, etc., and are overpriced. The good ones must all be gone, lol. But in any case, 40-50 years of aging did NOT open them up. So wishing for a better sound down the line MAY or MAY NOT happen. If a guitar sounds like crap in present time, it may sound the same 20 years down the line. Note, some of us don't have 20 years to wait....lol......I've noticed that all mahogany guitars don't open up the same way that spruce top guitars do, and in my experience, Sitka opens up more than Adi, when guitars actually DO open up. Best to stay present with the sound of your guitar. I have had some success with Tonerite by the way, but not all guitars respond.

[Yorick]

I agree with Wily and the others. Never buy a guitar based upon futurity. It ain't like a green banana that you know will mature.

 

I'm positive that the tone of a well-built, all solid guitar will improve with age and play--I've never owned one that got worse. But changes are subtle. I've heard some change more than others.

 

And it's hard to know exactly how much the change lies in our perception thereof.

[SD1992]

Interesting, I wonder why the used Sheryl Crow one sounded so different to the brand new Hummingbird then?

 

All lovely guitars, including the Martins, it is so damn difficult to narrow it down to just one!

[milod]

sd...

 

I'm with you on the Taylors.

 

Okay, mostly an electric player? Not a singer? Your voice can't be any worse than a lotta folks who've made a living out of solo gigs. The 'Bird is a marvelous instrument that works very well backing vocals.

 

I'm mostly a fingerpicker whether electric or acoustic, though, and I got into AE as soon as Ovation came out with some of the first back in the mid '70s for various saloon gigs. The nicest "woody" acoustic sound or look? Nope. But they were/are practical in all kinds of weather.

 

Although I still have my original AE steel and nylon Ovations from that era, mostly I've been messing with newer AE stuff the past 5-6 years. My observation is this: An AE works best for performance of about anything but bluegrass/old time. And my big boxes just aren't as comfortable for me as a smaller box that can sound quite nice AE, albeit without the degree of "natural" wood guitar sound through an excellent mike.

 

Too, I'm absolutely convinced that technique has far more to do with "tone" than what some will claim. Strings too, just as with electrics, so technique and strings match what the picker is doing.

 

I just keep coming back to "feel" over "tone," perhaps mostly due to that AE "thing" I've pretty much done some 40 years now because of practical performance application.

 

Others think I'm way off base, and I can't and won't argue against their perspectives either.

 

OTOH, the real "folk-cowboy" folks I know around here pretty much have been AE since the first mag pups on something like the ES175-size Gibson cf100e flattop showed up circa 1950 for a cupla years with a mag pup option, or some similar-size archtops with a pup could run through a little amp and still sound kinda "acoustic." And the guy with the CF100e(s) didn't even have coop electricity until '66 or phones at the ranch until '73.

 

Bottom line, and the other guys are hitting it with the same conclusion from their own different perspectives: Pay your money and take your choice.

 

m

[Riptide]

 

I'm personally very much a "feel" guy even more than price tag or brand. If a guitar speaks to you, and seems to help you play, there's a certain something that makes it far more valuable than price, and others made of "superior" ingredients seem to be of lesser value. I think also that the sounds from one's playing will be improved or lessened by that "feel" perhaps more than the instrument's intrinsic qualities or in a sense, its extrinsic qualities.

 

In short... it's personal. Which guitar helps you play and pleases your hands, your playing geometry and your heart?

 

m

 

^This^ When I got my first acoustic I was willing to spend $500-$750 I was looking at Martins, Yamahas, and Takamines mainly... then I found an all mahogany concert shape Fender that just was "Right" in my hands and was only $250, I don't think I'll ever regret that purchase.

[Smurfbird]

Have we determined whether the Sheryl Crow is the SCSouthern Jumbo or the SC-C&W. I'm not the right person to discuss specs, but the C&W is very close to a Hummingbird in looks.

 

I had a Hummingbird and while it was nice, it did not come close to the 2003 Sheryl Crow C&W Signature model I have now, which to my ears projects far better and plays a bit easier. Most Hummingbirds I've tried since do have a quieter sound, which for singers can be a real advantage.

 

I also have a 2010 Dove and that is the loudest of them all. Even louder than the J-200. Yet, for some reason I don't bond as well with it. Who knows why? There's an emotional component there that goes beyond logic.

 

Good luck figuring it all out. Sounds like you preferred the Sheryl Crow over the Hummingbird. Be sure to play every model you can that catches your eye. And then match them up against the Martin. A different sound and only you know which you prefer. My only word of caution on a Martin is to make sure you like the neck profile. A lot of good Martin people have found the V neck to be difficult getting used to. Again, some people prefer it.

 

Good luck!

[milod]

"There's an emotional component there that goes beyond logic."

 

And much as I'm a "logic" guy in most discussion, this comment nails it when it comes to "art," especially our own.

 

m

[zombywoof]

 

I'm mostly a fingerpicker whether electric or acoustic, though, and I got into AE as soon as Ovation came out with some of the first back in the mid '70s for various saloon gigs. The nicest "woody" acoustic sound or look? Nope. But they were/are practical in all kinds of weather.

 

 

 

Back in the 1960s we all lived by these:

 

 

 

Wasn't as much by choice as this was all there really was. But maybe because I just am so used to them I still have two for my guitars and a "monkey on a stick" version for my mandolin.

[milod]

zombie...

 

If you mean what I think you do, I had a "monkey on a stick" version I used on an archtop I converted to a 7-string (doubled the "G" as on a 12) in the mid '60s - later used it on a "A" mandolin and... Doggoned if I can find the @$%#@$% thing now, and I've been looking off and on the past 6 months.

 

I still use one of the sound hole jobbies on my 12.

 

m

[GuitarLight]

Opening up....ok....here is my opinion...After having bought 27 high end acoustic guitars....and at least 20 of them severe mistakes..... over the years, here is my advice to you. ---If the guitar, no matter what make or model, does not sound the way you want it to sound when you are considering buying it...then..."DO NOT BUY IT." While guitars do change a bit over time, they seldom, if ever change dramatically. And what you are buying is exactly what you will get, with just a bit of loosening up over time. And that difference will not be earth shattering. In fact you'll have to convince yourself that it sounds better over ten years, when in fact it does not, just to justify keeping it. Buy a guitar not with your wallet...but with your ears. Because what you hear...is basically, what you will get in the long term. Good luck!

[Smurfbird]

Thinking about this all afternoon and yeah 100% with everyone who says pick your guitar for what it sounds like today and for how it feels to you today.

 

Don't be surprised if a cheapo guitar snags your interest. Or if it's something you have to pay up for. You just never know. Things sound good on paper but then don't pan out.

 

And sometimes a guitar that feels like your soul mate one afternoon can feel like your arch-nemesis the next.

 

Have fun!

[duluthdan]

Are the back and side woods the same on these models?

[zombywoof]

zombie...

 

If you mean what I think you do, I had a "monkey on a stick" version I used on an archtop I converted to a 7-string (doubled the "G" as on a 12) in the mid '60s - later used it on a "A" mandolin and... Doggoned if I can find the @$%#@$% thing now, and I've been looking off and on the past 6 months.

 

I still use one of the sound hole jobbies on my 12.

 

m

 

 

Yeah, the pickup for the mando is just a smaller version of the archtop pickup.

 

[j45nick]

Back in the 1960s we all lived by these:

 

 

Wasn't as much by choice as this was all there really was. But maybe because I just am so used to them I still have two for my guitars and a "monkey on a stick" version for my mandolin.

 

 

ZW, are you the guy on the Guild six-string? Just guessing here......

[mountainpicker]

Regarding opening up: When I took up the guitar ten years ago I pretty much resigned myself to buying them without getting to play them first as I had no guitar shop within a three hours drive, four hours to a really well stocked shop. So I relied on the reputation of the maker to get me a good one. That's how I got my Santa Cruz D/PW, a Bourgeois Country Boy and a Santa Cruz Vintage Jumbo. As time went by I've discovered that I don't care for rosewood (I'm a mahogany man), I don't care for Martins or Martin clones, and I wish I'd never sold the VJ. I thought a short scale might be to my liking from lurking on this forum, so I popped for a J-50 at a good price on ebay one night. I guess I lucked out. As this guitar has opened up it has become my favored guitar and an old friend. I put it on a ToneRite to hasten the process and it most definitely has changed a bunch in the last nine months of my ownership of three years. The bass response was the last thing to dramatically blossum. The midrange was always good and the trebles have sweetened with time (not as tinny as when new). I'm attached to my J-50 like no other guitar I own. Now I also have a little Eastman ET5-SS which is a clone of a Gibson LG-2 and it has an adirondack top. The ToneRite has opened this guitar up so dramatically that I sometimes think it's my best sounding guitar. Because of that I just got an Eastman E10-SS, a J-45 clone, with an adirondack top too (in my defense, owning expensive guitars in the humidity I live in and with my lifestyle is just foolish). If it develops like the ET5-SS it will be the loudest, most modern sounding acoustic I own, hands down. Bottom line, I KNOW that guitars open up with time. They are like people; going from being a raw juvenile to an adult, and although I don't own a vintage instrument, I think those that do will concur that they go into an experienced "old age". I think that guitars are the coolest things made by the hands of men and women. So good guitars do get better and great guitars get better too in my humble opinion. The advice above, to get what sounds good to you at the onset, is sound advice. And then, just play your way to a better sounding world.

[milod]

Zombie... I have/had (???) the longer-tail version - and a tone as well as volume. 1/8 inch output jack.

 

BTW, after reading about Eastmans... It made me think of the ES archtop series with "plywood" on them and questions of "opening up." L5 Larry has said it will happen but takes decades, and I take him as being the archtop guru here. I got one of the Eastman archtops and it plays marvelously well for me, btw.

 

m

[Tarrr]

Poly is the big enemy for wood opening up, nitro is your friend. After 5yrs my SWD turned into pure honey, one day it just woke up and became righteous.

[larryp58]

Poly is the big enemy for wood opening up, nitro is your friend. After 5yrs my SWD turned into pure honey, one day it just woke up and became righteous.

 

 

I agree! Play'em hard everyday and in a couple of years it'll "wake up and become righteous"!!!

[milod]

I may be full of prune juice or the results thereof, but honestly, I figure if the guitar likes you, and you like the guitar, there's a synergy that adds to the tone regardless...

 

m