Marks around bridge

[bobouz]

There were some other issues with the J-180 I had and when you put them all together it had to go back.

Bob, it's great that end result was a guitar you really like.

 

Congrats on the J45 Amberburst!

[j45nick]

The person that buffed the guitar did an amazing job and there is noting wrong with the guitar. The black finish shows the scalloping a bit more than a natural. What you are looking at is not bubbles as some think and it is not a factory defect. It is the result of a properly applied finish and a properly glued bridge.

 

 

 

Agree 100% with this. It doesn't bother me one bit. A properly-hydrated spruce-topped flat-top with a thin, well-done nitro finish will almost always show some grain scalloping when you sight across it, and this will show up around the bridge just as shown in the photos.

 

If you want a perfectly flat-grain top, buy a polyurethane-finished guitar with a thick mirror finish, and be prepared to live with the resulting potential tonal compromise.

[Hogeye]

Hogeye, Thanks for your very interesting explanation. It clears a lot up, though I still cannot understand why some other owners of this model say they do not have this issue. I know of another new one in a store in the UK and it has the same markings. There were some other issues with the J-180 I had and when you put them all together it had to go back.

 

Bob

The biggest misunderstanding about Gibson guitars is exactly what you point out. They are made individually and not stamped out by a cookie cutter. Each guitar is buffed by hand and each guitar is bridged by hand and no two are alike.The bridging of the guitar and the buffing of the finish will both contribute to the look of the guitar. No two will look alike but all will be made with no flaws. You were right to move it along and another person that understands the process a bit more will buy the guitar and all will be happy. Well--- Not all there are a few here that will never be happy but that being said I'm glad you got the guitar that you like. Now all you need to do is sit back and enjoy...

 

There is a lot of info that can be learned on this forum and you will be happy to know there are folks that actually go to the factory to get the correct answers to your questions. You will learn to idenitify them and they will be more than happy to help you. If you would like to get the first hand account just sign up for the "Gibson Homecoming" come to Bozeman with your list of questions and you can talk to the very person that is responsible for the process you are asking about. Gibson hides nothing. They have nothing to hide and they are one of the very few brands that sponsors an event like this. It has been going on for 8 years. Gibson encourages folks to come to Bozeman and in other years when the economy was better Gibson actually held drawings at the "Homecoming" and provided as many as two guitars for the folks to win. No tickets to buy just come to Bozeman. There are posters on the forum that have gone to every one.There are experts here with 40 years of experience that have never been inside a guitar plant. Sigh. Welcome to the family.

[Hall]

Agree 100% with this. It doesn't bother me one bit. A properly-hydrated spruce-topped flat-top with a thin, well-done nitro finish will almost always show some grain scalloping when you sight across it, and this will show up around the bridge just as shown in the photos.

 

If you want a perfectly flat-grain top, buy a polyurethane-finished guitar with a thick mirror finish, and be prepared to live with the resulting potential tonal compromise.

 

 

J45nick, stated it pretty clearly right there in what, no more than four sentences. Good job.

 

Steve

[Tarrr]

+1

The grain in the spruce is the answer

[chipss36]

No the answer was returning said gibson for another Gibson without uhhh the "not a flaw"

Some people on this sight are a trip.

[Hall]

No the answer was returning said gibson for another Gibson without uhhh the "not a flaw"

Some people on this sight are a trip.

 

An opinion on the post's theme is just that, and such is fine. But that last sentence in the above reply is uncalled for, chipss36. And with it, you proved your own point.

 

Steve

[blindboygrunt]

. You were right to move it along and another person that understands the process a bit more will buy the guitar and all will be happy. Well--- Not all there are a few here that will never be happy but that being said I'm glad you got the guitar that you like. Now all you need to do is sit back and enjoy...

 

There is a lot of info that can be learned on this forum and you will be happy to know there are folks that actually go to the factory to get the correct answers to your questions. You will learn to idenitify them and they will be more than happy to help you

 

 

There are posters on the forum that have gone to every one.There are experts here with 40 years of experience that have never been inside a guitar plant. Sigh. Welcome to the family.

[bobouz]

There are experts here with 40 years of experience that have never been inside a guitar plant. Sigh.

I'd imagine there are a fair number of highly regarded luthiers who have never been inside a guitar plant. Visiting Gibson's operation would be a wonderful thing, but it is not in the cards for everyone, and it is not required to gain valuble experience and knowledge about instruments. We all bring the progressive sum of our experiences to the table as we participate in these discussions, whether you've built or repaired instruments yourself, or had someone do it for you.

[Jerry K]

There is a cycle endlessly repeated on this board. Somebody posts a query and right away 'experts with 40 years experience' will answer, but the answer they are giving is wrong, oftentimes completely wrong and even tinged with knee-jerk hostility and references to ripoffs, 'the new normal' etc. After a while Hogeye or Rar or somebody will say something that contradicts these 'experts'. The 'experts' double down and insist they are correct and how dare so-and-so fly in the face of what they and others have said... After a while things quiet down a bit and everybody, even those 'experts with 40 years experience' realize that hard information from people who actually know something from visiting or working at the factory is draining all the juice out of their arguments. But even though they may grudgingly acknowledge there might be something to the correct explanation, as soon as the next issue comes up, the exact same thing happens again, and there are mentions of 'Gibson apologists', shills, etc. Never mind that these 40 year experts just got schooled...

 

We've seen every dodge, too. We even had a discussion here where people tried to set up rules such that if poster A criticizes Gibson, poster B is not allowed to criticize A's post, because that purportedly curtails A's freedom of speech. This is flirting with some sort of wishy-washy new age nonsense which confuses 'everybody is entitled to an opinon' with 'all opinions are valid and correct'. Not so!

[chipss36]

It went back and I got a J-45 Amberburst in its place. Stunning guitar.

 

Bob

Enjoy the new box man.

[Jerry K]

 

[snip]

It's great that you live in Bozeman and are connected to the factory. But if anyone seems intent on using that connection to be viewed as a forum expert, it frequently appears to be you.

[snip]

 

Bobouz, somehow I think you still don't understand the posish yet. Hogeye is an expert on Gibson acoustics.

[Buc McMaster]

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I cannot help but observe the obvious: a gathering of people with a passion about anything are going to have disagreements over the finer points, regardless of who may be right and who wrong. Silly to assume it would be otherwise, don't you think? We humans are often quite predictable.

[j45nick]

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I cannot help but observe the obvious: a gathering of people with a passion about anything are going to have disagreements over the finer points, regardless of who may be right and who wrong. Silly to assume it would be otherwise, don't you think? We humans are often quite predictable.

 

 

Aw, Buc, by being a voice of reason, you spoil all the fun........

[bobouz]

There is a cycle endlessly repeated on this board. Somebody posts a query and right away 'experts with 40 years experience' will answer, but the answer they are giving is wrong, oftentimes completely wrong and even tinged with knee-jerk hostility and references to ripoffs, 'the new normal' etc. After a while Hogeye or Rar or somebody will say something that contradicts these 'experts'. The 'experts' double down and insist they are correct and how dare so-and-so fly in the face of what they and others have said...

Jerry, the "expert" label was applied from thin air by Hogeye in an effort to create the basis for a personal attack. 40 years of experience around guitars, I and many others indeed do have, and it creates the basis of the opinions we share on this board.

 

Try to stick to reality, without manufacturing discussion that did not occur in a continuing effort to discredit others.

[Jerry K]

Jerry, the "expert" label was applied from thin air by Hogeye in an effort to create the basis for a personal attack. 40 years of experience around guitars, I and many others indeed do have, and it creates the basis of the opinions we share on this board.

 

Try to stick to reality, without manufacturing discussion that did not occur in a continuing effort to discredit others.

 

Perhaps a little attention to reading comprehension is called for? I was describing a cyle which keeps recurring. Um, that would be a pattern, not a particular occurrence. Yes, I picked up on Hogeye's ironic term of description for people who owned a guitar for 40 years and thereby consider themselves guitar experts. That would be the class of folks who keep re-enacting this same pattern and never learning. Not a particular person, though you are clearly a member of the class.

[bobouz]

That would be the class of folks who keep re-enacting this same pattern and never learning.

Excellent Jerry!

 

That brings us full circle, back to one of my two primary points. Hogeye, you, and a few other folks around here frequently feel compelled to insert unnecessary negative digs at individuals and use diversionary efforts such as the petty labeling & grouping of others, in an attempt to quell open discussion. It's generally not enough for you guys to contribute the information and offer your opinions in a civil and respectful manner. I think anyone going back and researching your posting histories would clearly see the pattern pop up on a regular basis.

 

I've brought up this point because I'd like to see the quality of conversation on this forum improve. This thread has just about convinced me that, to borrow from your line above, you fellas will reenact the same pattern and never learn. On this point, I will continue to hold out hope for some incremental improvement.

 

As for my other primary point in this thread, I continue to hold firm on this issue: The extreme scored lines around the bridge on the OP's guitar are not typically seen on high quality instruments, including vintage instruments from the major manufacturers. With the information provided by Hogeye, it is clear how these lines came to be as a normal part of the construction techniques being utilized. That's the kind of info I appreciate, just like you. What I don't appreciate and again consider BS is an attempt to demean people who don't view this extreme scoring as acceptable, simply because it's a normal outcome of Gibson's production process. Hence the bogus effort to create a "new normal." We're talking about maybe a handful of guitars that don't look as good as a cleaner example sitting next to it. So what - it's no big deal. In the old days at Gibson, these babies would most likely have had that good old little "2" stamped on the back of the headstock.

 

So that's it. Those have been my two points all along in this rather enjoyable thread.

 

Unfortunately guys, the fun we're having here is pretty time consuming, and I've got family coming in for a visit, so I won't be checking in till next week.

 

Carry on till next time, and again, I think it's great that Bob eventually got a guitar he appreciates as an overall winner.

 

Bob O.

[blindboygrunt]

Excellent Jerry!

 

That brings us full circle, back to one of my two primary points. Hogeye, you, and a few other folks around here frequently feel compelled to insert unnecessary negative digs at individuals and use diversionary efforts such as the petty labeling & grouping of others, in an attempt to quell open discussion. It's generally not enough for you guys to contribute the information and offer your opinions in a civil and respectful manner. I think anyone going back and researching your posting histories would clearly see the pattern pop up on a regular basis.

 

I've brought up this point because I'd like to see the quality of conversation on this forum improve. This thread has just about convinced me that, to borrow from your line above, you fellas will reenact the same pattern and never learn. On this point, I will continue to hold out hope for some incremental improvement.

 

As for my other primary point in this thread, I continue to hold firm on this issue: The extreme scored lines around the bridge on the OP's guitar are not typically seen on high quality instruments, including vintage instruments from the major manufacturers. With the information provided by Hogeye, it is clear how these lines came to be as a normal part of the construction techniques being utilized. That's the kind of info I appreciate, just like you. What I don't appreciate and again consider BS is an attempt to demean people who don't view this extreme scoring as acceptable, simply because it's a normal outcome of Gibson's production process. Hence the bogus effort to create a "new normal." We're talking about maybe a handful of guitars that don't look as good as a cleaner example sitting next to it. So what - it's no big deal. In the old days at Gibson, these babies would most likely have had that good old little "2" stamped on the back of the headstock.

 

So that's it. Those have been my two points all along in this rather enjoyable thread.

 

Unfortunately guys, the fun we're having here is pretty time consuming, and I've got family coming in for a visit, so I won't be checking in till next week.

 

Carry on till next time, and again, I think it's great that Bob eventually got a guitar he appreciates as an overall winner.

 

Bob O.

 

I'm afraid I have to second that. But hey ho

[Jerry K]

Nice try, old boy. You accused me of making up events that didn't occur. I replied that the I was describing a pattern, and that the '40 year experts' you were going on about is a logical class, a token in a system, not a person. I am guessing this distinction may go over your head. Never mind Bob. Carry on. Getting angry at someone who corrects you is easier than admitting you are wrong.

 

Excellent Jerry!

 

That brings us full circle, back to one of my two primary points. Hogeye, you, and a few other folks around here frequently feel compelled to insert unnecessary negative digs at individuals and use diversionary efforts such as the petty labeling & grouping of others, in an attempt to quell open discussion. It's generally not enough for you guys to contribute the information and offer your opinions in a civil and respectful manner. I think anyone going back and researching your posting histories would clearly see the pattern pop up on a regular basis.

 

I've brought up this point because I'd like to see the quality of conversation on this forum improve. This thread has just about convinced me that, to borrow from your line above, you fellas will reenact the same pattern and never learn. On this point, I will continue to hold out hope for some incremental improvement.

 

As for my other primary point in this thread, I continue to hold firm on this issue: The extreme scored lines around the bridge on the OP's guitar are not typically seen on high quality instruments, including vintage instruments from the major manufacturers. With the information provided by Hogeye, it is clear how these lines came to be as a normal part of the construction techniques being utilized. That's the kind of info I appreciate, just like you. What I don't appreciate and again consider BS is an attempt to demean people who don't view this extreme scoring as acceptable, simply because it's a normal outcome of Gibson's production process. Hence the bogus effort to create a "new normal." We're talking about maybe a handful of guitars that don't look as good as a cleaner example sitting next to it. So what - it's no big deal. In the old days at Gibson, these babies would most likely have had that good old little "2" stamped on the back of the headstock.

 

So that's it. Those have been my two points all along in this rather enjoyable thread.

 

Unfortunately guys, the fun we're having here is pretty time consuming, and I've got family coming in for a visit, so I won't be checking in till next week.

 

Carry on till next time, and again, I think it's great that Bob eventually got a guitar he appreciates as an overall winner.

 

Bob O.

[ChrisA83]

Now I'm no guitar expert - I've only been playing for 22 years and I've never been to a guitar factory - and I appreciate your informative contributions Hogeye, I've learned a lot from you and others, but when I read the following I had a little chuckle!

No two will look alike but all will be made with no flaws.

Are you being serious?

 

What I don't appreciate and again consider BS is an attempt to demean people who don't view this extreme scoring as acceptable, simply because it's a normal outcome of Gibson's production process. Hence the bogus effort to create a "new normal." We're talking about maybe a handful of guitars that don't look as good as a cleaner example sitting next to it.

+1

The way Gibson attaches the bridges makes this a possible outcome (which I just learned from Hogeye, thanks!), and this process improves the join and so the sound, but surely it can't be considered normal. What percentage of Gibsons come out like this? And I know "go and get a Taylor if you want a perfect finish blah blah blah" but when you're spending this much money you want something you're happy with.

 

FWIW I probably wouldn't mind having a guitar with this issue, but I don't like it when people get jumped on when they say they have a problem with their Gibson that is clearly visible, and that not all Gibsons have.

[Jerry K]

[snip]

FWIW I probably wouldn't mind having a guitar with this issue, but I don't like it when people get jumped on when they say they have a problem with their Gibson that is clearly visible, and that not all Gibsons have.

 

By 'jumped on', you and some other posters appear to mean:

It's probably best you sent it back. Someone that knows a good guitar will enjoy it.

 

Oh the horror, the terrible ignominy of that awful indictment. So awful that people have gone on for pages decrying it. Decrying it at a length that seems, shall we say, disproportionate to the actual 'offense'? The laddies do protest overmuch, methinks.

 

People post things and put imho at the end. But the opinion is not so humble, it turns out. The author will brook no contradiction and defends it furiously.

[GDC]

Nevermind

[ChrisA83]

By 'jumped on', you and some other posters appear to mean:

"It's probably best you sent it back. Someone that knows a good guitar will enjoy it."

 

The second sentence, yeah, that's what kicked it off. It shows a certain arrogance don't you think? Or at the very least that the person to which it refers, does not know what a good guitar is. It was unnecessary.

 

So awful that people have gone on for pages decrying it

 

And you've spent many posts defending it. Differing opinions.

[Jerry K]

If this conversation were taking place on the Arithmetic Forum, it would go something like this:

 

A: Two plus two equal five.

 

B: No, two plus two equal four!

 

A: Not so. I've been working with numbers for forty years.

 

B: I can demonstrate that two plus two equal four. (Takes two pencils and puts them side by side with two more). See? It's four.

 

A: Well, there may be some truth in that but you said it in such a demeaning way. That exclamation point was totally uncalled for. You keep trying to set yourself up as some sort of expert on math. Besides, a lot of people agree with me that two plus two equal four.