Marks around bridge

[GuitarLight]

I live in IA and while it isn't humid & heavy as Florida, Mississippi, or the like, we have 70% hot muggy days here for sure from all the row crops. I keep all my guitar necks very clean and, while I'm not doubting you've had sticky necks, I have never had one on any of my guitars. Gibby's or otherwise. Course now, I wash my hand w/ soap prior to playing (no oils left on them to muck up the neck or strings. I also wipe the strings & the neck down after every playing. I'm not a performer playing for my pay but never have sticky necks. I have felt others sticky necks and found that it was more from improper care than anything with the finish. All kinds of stuff on your hands can eat nitro and make it gummy. Have you tried wiping them down with Naptha & a soft cotton cloth? I do that about 2x each year on all my guitars whether they need it or not. Works great even on the Ric's with Conversion Varnish. Doesn't hurt a thing. No build up on the soundboard from forearms goobers either.

 

As for flaming for an opinion. No one needs to be flamed, but I read less flaming and more passion maybe into some of the comments than others maybe. Of course I deal with conflict most every day all day long so I may have a thicker skin than others.

 

If you think I flamed or ridiculed you for anything I didn't!! I just disagreed with what you had written about Epi's & Gibson's and stated my viewpoint.

 

Aster

Aster I understand and appreciate where you are coming from, so no offense is taken. I agree wiping down Gibson necks can help the issue. And anyway I would rather play a Gibson with a somewhat sticky neck over any other brand because of Gibsons balanced tone and wonderful mids. I suppose the neck issue was only brought up by me because it would seem a good idea not to ever have this be an issue. My Martins and Taylors in the past have virtually never become sticky, even if I don't wipe them, or wash my hands....which I usually do before playing anyway. Perhaps one day things will change, but it does not affect how I feel about Gibsons superb tone and balance. I will remember your suggestion to try more wiping down of necks on Gibsons when need be, to alleviate any problems. Thank you for the sound advice.

[Aster1]

Wow. Seems to me a consumer is the one who should decide whether that issue is a problem . The "luthiers" at Gibson can declare it a non-issue, but the consumers' dollars will determine the answer In the end.

 

Ultimately, "no truer words said" GDC!!! Just like at the ballot box too. We either vote to buy the guitar (when we lay the $$ down) or vote them out when we purchase another brand, or purchse none at all! I have done both and will do so in the future with all my purchases from produce to guitars. It's all the same. If it isn't something we want for our hard earned cash (hopefully "earned") than by golly, we each have the right to keep or send back. No shame no nothing. Hogeye,as I recall has connections with Montana Factory people, & is just a little passionate about trying to explain the reasons "why" some things with construction are the way the are. In my past years, I've had some close contact with design/engineering and a few things "under my belt" in that capacity. You do have to make some compromises to get the performance outcomes on occasion. Some of the clunkiest looking "POS" devices do the "Best job" in performance. It is a tight rope walk to balance both, but keep in mind, MOST ALWAYS IMHO, you have to sacrifice things either way you go. Either in performance, or cosmetics when you favor one or the other more. You just can't always have both perfect that I've been able to see.

 

I just dug out 3 of my Gibson's and really looked them over close. Dove, J-45 Custom & Fuller J-160E. The Dove has the smoothest lacquer finish (maybe just a touch thicker than the other two). Around the complex Bridge it is very closely sliced thru the Nitro for wood/wood contact. I needed to really use my close vision to see that however. The other two have rather thin finishes, plenty of finish mind you, just not enough to fill all the ridges of the grain. I recall thinking this was an "undesirable flaw" in the finish work. After a fair amount of discussion, and on the forum here too, I was educated in the notion that a thinner, but adequate, finish was a "Good" thing not "bad." If I wanted flat & smooth you have to "plasticize" the wood more and many that live & breath working, playing, and repairing guitars maintain that mutes some sound. I almost sent back my new J-45 C for this and that would have been a real tragedy as it's opened up and is one of my most loved sounding guitars. I still will admit the Dove is much prettier but for some reason the nitro didn't shrink down as much, or the grain wasn't as deep (don't know which) as the J's. It sounds very sweet and I won't ever part with it unless I just HAD to.

 

Long & short of it all is back to what & how we look at things. The Epi's w/ Polly, have much less chance for any finish short comings. Nitro, just like an old sports car with a fine lacquer finish are just plainly more trouble all the way around. Just like a Ric (which I love my 2 dearly) are more "needy" finish wise than say my Gretsch's with the Poly finish.

 

Over the years, I've had the pleasure with working with some of the finest made gadgets & products I have ever seen. Every dang one of them has had things slip thru into the field however. I don't like it, it costs me money to replace, but you know, this isn't a perfect world. When it's bad, send it back. If it slipped thru I'm sure Gibson wants to have someone happy as they've always taken care of any issues with either G or Epi I've had. I know, I've had a couple things slip by me before in my life. It's when a company WON'T help you or make something right that we need to get the pitchforks, Tar & Feathers out. Then they desearve the wrath for sure!!

 

Lastly,

 

I've had someone call me "Preaching" before so don't that this in any other way I'm giving it:

 

I don't mind when things get heated or even when people take offense, or go a bit overboard with comments. I would just suggest that since we are all here cuz we like Gibson's & Epiphones, that we "toughen up" just a tad. Thin skins & jumping to conclusions, and taking offense can is just as undesirable (to me, won't speak about for others) as GIVING OFFENSE. At least that's what I've always understood & tried to practice. And yes, sand got "thoed about" in the sandbox when I was a kid in grade school. Guess I just was taught to take it and politely stand up for my right to be there with a different opinion.

 

To Bob the OP. You did just what you should have BOB!!! If you don't like something on a product then to hell with it. You don't have to learn to like it for whatever reason. Just like people tried to tell me about wine & art. You have to understand it to be smart enough to love it. Well, I'll give it time to "understand" something but if it still tastes like sour vinegar or a damn kid "thew" paint blobs all over a canvas then I don't have to like it, drink it, or buy/look at it. At least is isn't a LAW yet I have to.

 

 

 

Aster

[Hogeye]

Everyone attacks everyone in here because they can. Punches in the mouth are impossible in here . which makes people very brave :)

 

If you are referring to me I'm not brave at all. In fact I'm feeling just a bit threatened. I may be wrong but I think that this sort of intimidation is against forum rules.

 

I will say this once more. If you post something that is wrong and it injures Gibson I will set the record straight.

[Jerry K]

Let's clear one thing up. If you buy a new guitar and don't like it for any reason, real or hallucinated, return it. That is your right. I wouldn't blame you for it, Hogeye will advise you to do that, all Gibson fanboys insist on it. Check through this and any other thread and you will see: no one ever suggested anything to the contrary.

 

There is a sales concept: the customer is always right. This is an attitude adopted by sales people which helps grease the wheels of commerce. It is not a statement of fact about the universe! Customers frequently are quite wrong in their complaints about a product. You can see from the original post that even supposed luthiers consulted by the OP about the issue were all wet about the cause (they thought it was refin, masking etc.).

 

Hogeye has the experience and access to offer accurate information which can really shed light on guitar issues like the one in this thread. For me, the exchange of real information like this is the preeminent reason for this board, and I am grateful to him for supplying this kind of knowledge.

[Aster1]

Great said JK!! And one step further, I'm glad to have had Bob (OP) post what he posted and really all the other comments (less the ones where folks got upset) and even those I'm not dissing. This is a forum of discussion and enjoyment. If we all were in agreement then we wouldn't need more than a few to post [thumbup] or "You're right." If you all know what I mean. Disagreement is not always a bad thing as we often either learn if we were right, wrong, mistaken, correct, needed more info or just a different point of view. If you hate Gibson's or the way they sound this just ain't the place. I'm sure you can get onto AGF and find a ton of support. And just in case, I'm NOT WANTING ANYONE LEAVING HERE TO THERE EITHER!!!

 

It's all good. Let's be happy we live in countries, have enough fold'n money in our pockets, and have places to buy what we like, want, and need (well, as much as I try to tell my wife that, we don't need guitars, but ya know what I mean). We are also lucky to have Gibson sponsor & put up with all that's said here often about their products. If something wrong, like has been said, I'm certain they want to know about it. One happy customer tells 1-2, one UNHAPPY customer tells EVERYONE!!!

 

Aster

[Aster1]

Hogeye,

 

I read Blindboygrunt as meaning that it's easier to get "more mouthy" with us behind our computer screens than in person as there's no chance of fisty cuffs. I don't believe it's anything more or less than that. If I'm mistaken BBG. clear up that you meant something more than that.

 

Aster

[bobouz]

Hogeye has the experience and access to offer accurate information which can really shed light on guitar issues like the one in this thread. For me, the exchange of real information like this is the preeminent reason for this board, and I am grateful to him for supplying this kind of knowledge.

I absolutely agree, Jerry. If the presentation of the information can be done in a straightforward, matter-of-fact manner, and in an effort to help promote discussion rather than minimize or devalue it, everyone will benefit. We all were newbie's at some point with zero information, and the evolutionary process of discovery is one of the greatest joys of this hobby.

[guitarstrummer]

Hogeye,

 

I read Blindboygrunt as meaning that it's easier to get "more mouthy" with us behind our computer screens than in person as there's no chance of fisty cuffs. I don't believe it's anything more or less than that.

 

Aster

 

It's a good thing. I've met Hogeye and I'm pretty sure that nobody would want to tangle with that critter in person. LOL

[Hogeye]

I'm still waiting to see just exactly BBG meant by his remarks. I appreciate others trying to apoligize for him but I really do want to know just exactly what he has in mind. Guitarstrummer please don't say anymore. We really don't want people to get the wrong idea about me. I'm really a nice guy. I may be a bit rough and ugly but I'm nice and play well with others.So... How about it BBG? Threat or what?

 

Aster 1; So do you still ride? I do and am always up for a good ride over the "Beartooth". If you want the ride of your life give me a PM and we can meet in Sturgis and head back to Bozeman over the best ride of your life.The top of the pass is 11,000 feet. Google "Beartooth Highway". I will see you get a great tour of the plant and buy the first beer.

[modoc_333]

I don't always agree with Hogeye. I don't always like the way he talks. I appreciate his contributions though. I choose to regard or ignore as I see fit. Sometimes he could bite his tongue and come off nicer. I will agree with that. In his defense though, you have to understand how those Montana folks talk. They are very kind and friendly people. They are always willing to help and contribute anything they can when they see someone in need.... they also are very blunt and direct. This sometimes comes off bad. They don't mean anything by it, that's just the way they are up there. To that, I hold no grudge. I am from the south. People think we are stupid sometimes because of how we talk. it's the same misunderstanding.

[blindboygrunt]

Hogeye,

 

I read Blindboygrunt as meaning that it's easier to get "more mouthy" with us behind our computer screens than in person as there's no chance of fisty cuffs. I don't believe it's anything more or less than that. If I'm mistaken BBG. clear up that you meant something more than that.

 

Aster

 

That's the gist of it aster. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm violent enough to raise a hand over something as petty as a few superficial issues on a guitar.

On more than one occasion on this forum (and other forums) I have read a post that if I was spoken to in person in such a patronising way I'd be fairly pissed off.

I have no dog in this fight. The finish on my j45 is very satisfactory.

[Aster1]

 

Aster 1; So do you still ride? I do and am always up for a good ride over the "Beartooth". If you want the ride of your life give me a PM and we can meet in Sturgis and head back to Bozeman over the best ride of your life.The top of the pass is 11,000 feet. Google "Beartooth Highway". I will see you get a great tour of the plant and buy the first beer.

 

H.E. I still do ride as much as I can. If I can take a rain check on the offer I'm up for it!! I'm waist deep in alligators & large projects here with work & no long tours maybe this year dang it. Business has been really good for the last 6 months and we're trying to make as much hay while the sun is shining. Got to catch up on 4 years that have totally sucked in our market.

 

I just missed the Gibson tour last year when I was at Yellowstone by a day. I had Tuesday open and of course the only tour days were on Weds (our travel day back home).

 

Aster

[Aster1]

That's the gist of it aster. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm violent enough to raise a hand over something as petty as a few superficial issues on a guitar.

On more than one occasion on this forum (and other forums) I have read a post that if I was spoken to in person in such a patronising way I'd be fairly pissed off.

I have no dog in this fight. The finish on my j45 is very satisfactory.

 

BB,

 

We all have our ways to communicate. I ain't no sage, but to me the only thing I'd really ever fight over these days is if someone or I were in real "harms way" then anything goes. Just can't get over my Daddy telling me when I was a kid "sticks 'n stones will break your bones, but words can never hurt you!" He was a sage IMHO rest his soul.

 

What I'm fearful the most about is to see how quickly and easily people are offended with almost anything said. Good gosh, we all could just back off on the "disrespect'n me button" as I haven't seen anyone really get called names like in the real FLAMING POST that get pulled/stopped. IMHO, even if we get a bit heated it ain't nothing if we just don't get into heavy name calling ya know with SERIOUS personal attacks. Don't see that here at all.

 

Just me I guess

 

Aster

[fortyearspickn]

The question of civil discourse has been around for awhile. Centuries if not millennia. If you go back and calmly re--read this from the beginning, you'll see a text book example of how a thread can both unravel and get tangled up. Very early in the thread, Big Kahune supplied the correct diagnosis. OP stated he wasn't satisfied and was returning his Gibson as defective. The thread could have ended there for most of us. we agree with the seemingly inconguous mantra/cliches of "let the buyer beware" and "the customer is always right".

But, a couple of folks viewed this as an opportunity to slam Gibson. Others argued the marks were not defects and offered technical information to folks wanting emotional responses.

Again, it could have ended there. But it became more personal. When you claim someone has insulted you, you decide "it really is all about me" and you know the other party will have to defend himself. It comes down to a question of 'why am I here?' If it is to enjoy the camaraderie of others who love their Gibson acoustics (as we all claim!) you will find what you are looking for most of the time. If it is for some other reason, you won't find what you are looking for often enough.

Most people, probably more so here, are laid back and non-confrontational. But you can see in this thread there are a few who look for opportunities to see how far they can push their own agenda. We should accept that as inevitable, point it out if necessary and move on. I view all threads as positive (including this one, because we've all had our needs met) as long as they don't end with that most hateful of all cliches "Why can't we all just get along?"

[SweetMarie]

I found the detail work that goes into Gibson's work very encouraging and completely understand the concept behind it.

I have an Eastman AC-512S (nice guitar!)and the glue on the bridge gave way a while ago and it lifted very slightly.

Off to the luthier's it went and it came back almost as good as new.

There are finish cracks around the bridge, barely visible due to the natural finish but a burst would have looked pretty bad and probably required a refinish.

Given Hogeye's explanation, I might require little dots around the bridge on my next Gibson!

[blindboygrunt]

The question of civil discourse has been around for awhile. Centuries if not millennia. If you go back and calmly re--read this from the beginning, you'll see a text book example of how a thread can both unravel and get tangled up. Very early in the thread, Big Kahune supplied the correct diagnosis. OP stated he wasn't satisfied and was returning his Gibson as defective. The thread could have ended there for most of us. we agree with the seemingly inconguous mantra/cliches of "let the buyer beware" and "the customer is always right".

But, a couple of folks viewed this as an opportunity to slam Gibson. Others argued the marks were not defects and offered technical information to folks wanting emotional responses.

Again, it could have ended there. But it became more personal. When you claim someone has insulted you, you decide "it really is all about me" and you know the other party will have to defend himself. It comes down to a question of 'why am I here?' If it is to enjoy the camaraderie of others who love their Gibson acoustics (as we all claim!) you will find what you are looking for most of the time. If it is for some other reason, you won't find what you are looking for often enough.

Most people, probably more so here, are laid back and non-confrontational. But you can see in this thread there are a few who look for opportunities to see how far they can push their own agenda. We should accept that as inevitable, point it out if necessary and move on. I view all threads as positive (including this one, because we've all had our needs met) as long as they don't end with that most hateful of all cliches "Why can't we all just get along?"

 

That about sums it up. Well put.

 

But the OP had a right to say what he found. Its another thing for people to look ffor when shopping. If it doesn't bother a mman then fine . but its not something I would look closely for. But I'm greatful for someone pointing out such a thing for the future.

As to whether its a worthwhile side effect for the glory of owning a handmade guitar , I ain't so sure .

Just like the laminated bridges etc. Only for the fact someone on here pointed them out I would never have thougt to look for them . so these people shouldn't be slammed for not wanting them , or pointing them out .

[RichG]

Maybe some of you saw this, but right now on Antiques Road Show which was shot in Biloxi in 2011 they had a banner SJ from 1944 or 45 they said. It appeared and was judged to be all original. A close up of the bridge showed the same marks ( to my eye) that the op showed us.

[BigKahune]

.

@RichG - possibly - certainly to a much lesser extent.

 

Here's the page that has the video of the appraisal - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201004A32.html

 

 

.

[Aster1]

I've looked at the photo several times and the more I look at it the more I'm seeing something. You know, I'm prolly wrong, but the marks look to me like a cutter mark (like a wavy edge cookie cutter) if you will. Do they straight score the paint to remove after finish for the bridge or could some be a serrated type cutter like a cookie cutter? Just pontification on my part, but that's what just passed thru my head when I wasn't thinking about it anymore. Again, I just don't think it may have been buffed quite enough to have melted it smooth against the bridge. Mistakes do happen when things are going thru inspection.

 

Aster

[fortyearspickn]

I think if you shine a light on a black guitar and take a single picture at an angle you'll see reflections where there are ridges in the grain and the nitro was cut. Which, I think, is just regurgitating what others have already said.

[Hogeye]

When you look at a top blank from the edge you will see something that is quite revealing. The dark grain or growth rings are a bit higher than the softer pith wood in between. This gives the wood a scalloped look. When Gibson applies the lacquer they put on five very thin coats of lacquer. This lacquer builds up in that exact pattern. To get the finish to display as flat Gibson then wet sands the finish down to the top of the growth rings and that leaves the valleys full of lacquer. Then Gibson adds more layers of lacquer and since the valleys are filled in the lacquer that is next applied comes up flat. Fine..

 

In Gibsons desire to put the lightest amount of lacquer on the guitar they then buff the guitar. First with a red rouge that takes a serious amount of lacquer off. Then with a yellow wheel that starts to shine the lacquer and then with a clean cotton wheel to give it a high shine. After the process of buffing the finish is very thin and can actually shrink into the valleys of the grain a bit. This is a good thing and considered by all experts in the finish field as very desirable. Gibson then fixes the bridge into position and scores the lacquer with a straight blade. They take the bridge off the guitar and remove the cut lacquer. The lacquer at this point is very thin and the cut edge can have this scalloped look you see on the black guitar. What you are looking at is the very edge of the lacquer that has been scored. Then Gibson glues the bridge onto the top. This is now a wood to wood glue joint and very durable.

 

Over the months and years as the finish shrinks this scalloping can be more noticeable. This process is called outgassing as the volitile( nitro) part of the protective finish evaporates. This can manifest itself in many way. Finish cracking and the alligator look are the most common.

 

In my first post I mentioned that someone would love to have the guitar as it displays a very thin finish and is of high quality. The person that buffed the guitar did an amazing job and there is noting wrong with the guitar. The black finish shows the scalloping a bit more than a natural. What you are looking at is not bubbles as some think and it is not a factory defect. It is the result of a properly applied finish and a properly glued bridge.

 

This forum is an interesting place and the people come and go. In my time posting here I have explained this process many times as new people come and go. I get tired of all the experts that think they know all the answers when they clearly don't. Their miss-information is upsetting as it can injure Gibson when they have done nothing wrong.

 

I told the OP to just get rid of the guitar as someone that knows guitars would love to have it and that finish. Then someone that will remain nameless lest he tries to punch me in the mouth has to say I was disrespectful.This man clearly knows nothing about Gibson or it's finish.

 

So to wrap things up... This is not a flaw.The people that keep repeating it are wrong. Anyone that goes to the Homecoming has seen this process and can verify the process. The guy that wants to punch me in the mouth needs to not only learn about guitars but he also needs to know I don't respond well to threats and since he is trying to ignore my request for clarification I can only assume he's a troll and should be ignored.

 

Hope this helps and I hope that BBG comes to Bozeman I would love to meet him.He sounds like a nice guy.

[blindboygrunt]

I can't see anywhere where anyone said they wanted to punch anyone in the mouth.

 

I am a nice guy. Never been in a fight in my life. I'm real glad you think I'm a nice guy.

[blindboygrunt]

I wonder why everyone personally attacks everyone else in here for what they write? I must say it's very disappointing when someone can not post a view....either positive of negative...without the natives going wild and flaming the house down. Perhaps we should stick more to giving our opinions to the OP about the questions and inquiries at hand...and less time..much less time...on commenting about how others have responded to the OP. It just makes sense.

 

This is the post I was responding to.... Ya'll realise that ?

[Bob Isaac]

Hogeye, Thanks for your very interesting explanation. It clears a lot up, though I still cannot understand why some other owners of this model say they do not have this issue. I know of another new one in a store in the UK and it has the same markings. There were some other issues with the J-180 I had and when you put them all together it had to go back.

 

Bob

[Gruffchris]

I just took some photos of my 3 Gibsons and none have marks around the bridge, a bit of glue, but not like yours?