skilsaw Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Last night I was looking up a couple of "entry level" guitars to reply to a beginner about the guitar she purchased. The write ups by the manufacturers described the guitar back and sides as "layered". Who do they think they are fooling? To me, the most honest description would be "plywood". "Laminated" back and sides would be second and "layered" would be somewhere lower on the list. The good news is the lady chose a suitable guitar for a good price. It could be all the guitar she ever wants, or after a year or two of lessons she may want something better. In the meantime, I'll treat myself to a beverage that "Contains real juice", not to mention the sugar, artificial flavor and water. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Skil... Yeah... Actually given the quality I've seen even on really low-end instruments with some significant production would allow "laminated" as opposed to the more crude "plywood." That's on flattops. As for the thicker composites on archtops? I dunno what's the best term. Again, they're a lot better than the stuff you get at the lumber yard. I dislike "select" as a code word for the flattop laminates even more, since a first time purchaser won't know what that means. We can argue pro and con on the value of such materials compared to solid wood - assuming the solid wood is of quality and proper aging. Heck, if the concept of today's high-quality laminates make a better and more stable rifle stock than solid wood, I'd suggest that with similar attention to quality and detail they should be more than stable in a guitar. It's the intent to weasel around the subject that tends to bother me. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 My Custom Shop Chet Atkins Country Gentleman is a $2500 plywood guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 <grin> Yup. An an ES175 would be a "whatever price" "plywood" guitar. I just resist the same word as one uses for "lumber yard" composites with the way they're done for an archtop or semi. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Gibson has racked up a lot of dollars from plywood. Not all laminated guitars are the same though. Gibson ES guitars are tough and I have a Gretsch Country Club I could knock down a brick chimney with. But pull a Chinese acoustic off the rack and let it fall on a hard surface. Go ahead. I'll even go get the broom and dustpan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skilsaw Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 I dislike "select" as a code word for the flattop laminates even more, since a first time purchaser won't know what that means. I think it is all a name game played by the marketing gurus in the corporations that don't even play guitar. Studio, Standard, and Custom need to be studied closely to understand what each maker means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Paul Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 "Hiding the "plywood". Sorry skil but that's not a bad euphemism I can use on the girlfriend when she get's home. Thanks for the help there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 My motto is "Nothing plays like plywood." It's like distortion. Who'd a thunk it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 All other things being equal I would say laminating makes things MUCH stronger. Not sure when Gibson began using laminated wood.... I would assume right after WW2? At least on a large scale anyway? Not going to guess, but that would work. It was a matter of utility; being able to crank out pressed top/back ES guitars that had quality but yet were affordable and durable. And I would present the argument that a 16" body with a P90 there isn't going to be an APPRECIABLE difference in tone between a solid spruce top and a pressed maple laminate. I know that's blasphemy but I said 'appreciable'. I could see where a solid carved top could add a huge amount to the price and I'm betting most would say, naw, I'm cool with the laminate. I've divorced myself from all things Ovation for personal reasons but I still have 55 aluminum necked Applauses, most with laminated tops (a few with plastic tops). I maintain that most of them sounded better than a typical Ovation with a solid top. The fan bracing on a laminated top sounds better than traditional bracing on a solid top. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 KS... One way or another, I think that "we" tend often to seek one or another type of holy grail in tone when most audiences most of the time are listening to music, not guitar tone. We play well or not so well. The "plywood" of an archtop or semi also, as I understand it, was used on grounds it was less likely to contribute to feedback. I still think that a laminate top on a flattop is something of a different creature compared to the plywood of an ES, but I'm a lot less concerned about a laminate flattop used "out" always as an AE run through the board than a lotta folks seem to be. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 IMO, much too much is made over types of wood on electrics- many more factors have a larger impact on sound. And the closer the pickups to the strings, the less impact wood has, or any other factor, for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Actually, "plywood" as a description would not really be correct. Why? In woodworking terms, a word could be used to describe a METHOD of construction (how a guy built it), a finished product, OR a materiel. As in a raw materiel. ALL plywood IS a laminate. It goes without saying. You don't say, "I'm going to laminate my subfloor", or "laminate my roof". You say "plywood it", and you might say it even if you weren't using actual plywood, like OSB. That comes from the fact plywood as a materiel was invented because wood doesn't grow in sheets. You don't get 4x8 from a tree. That's describing a task. When looking at a piece of furniture of cabinets, the tern describes what you are looking at or what it IS. If it's oak, it is either solid oak or it's laminated. If you say "plywood cabinet", that usually refers to a cabinet that a guy went and bought some plywood, made a box, and that's the finished cabinet. That's the negative form of the term. If it IS finished, or has the veneer on it, then it would be called "laminated plywood". That's describing a product. You don't call flooring "plywood", you call it "laminated". Because all plywood IS laminate. If you call it plywood, it infers you bought plywood and made flooring planks out of it, OR you are describing a floor made of 4x8 sheets. But you would call it "laminated" or "solid" based on what it is. Unless you are describing a METHOD of how you made the flooring, OR the floor you have, the term is incorrect. To describe a guitar made with laminates would always be correctly described as laminated as opposed to solid. "Plywood" is incorrect because you aren't describing a raw materiel or a method of construction, but rather a finished product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Stein... Okay... The reason I used the different terms - incorrectly it appears - is that the material used on a flattop appears to be much more thin than that used on an archtop-top. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Violin and cello builders had made instruments with laminated backs and sides for centuries, some of the most sought after classical guitars have laminated or veneered backs and sides.That is because it makes the instrument stable, and because it was and still is believed that when done correctly it makes the top the voice of the instrument. In Gibsons case the laminated tops on hollow bodied guitars was and still is an effort to control feedback. Technically laminated wood is a form of plywood, but be honest, it's not like the builder of a good guitar is going to the hardware store and buying construction quality wood. Great builders make thier own laminated woods out of high quality wood and horsehide glue.Look up antique double top classic guitars someday, if you think ever guitar with "plywood " is cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Violin and cello builders had made instruments with laminated backs and sides for centuries, some of the most sought after classical guitars have laminated or veneered backs and sides.That is because it makes the instrument stable, and because it was and still is believed that when done correctly it makes the top the voice of the instrument. In Gibsons case the laminated tops on hollow bodied guitars was and still is an effort to control feedback. Technically laminated wood is a form of plywood, but be honest, it's not like the builder of a good guitar is going to the hardware store and buying construction quality wood. Great builders make thier own laminated woods out of high quality wood and horsehide glue.Look up antique double top classic guitars someday, if you think ever guitar with "plywood " is cheap! You mean, plywood is a form of laminated wood. There is some really good grade plywood- it isn't all cheap- both the grade AND the wallet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Paul Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 By the way, skil, my girlfriend said to say thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblooded Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Violin and cello builders had made instruments with laminated backs and sides for centuries, some of the most sought after classical guitars have laminated or veneered backs and sides.That is because it makes the instrument stable, and because it was and still is believed that when done correctly it makes the top the voice of the instrument. In Gibsons case the laminated tops on hollow bodied guitars was and still is an effort to control feedback. Technically laminated wood is a form of plywood, but be honest, it's not like the builder of a good guitar is going to the hardware store and buying construction quality wood. Great builders make thier own laminated woods out of high quality wood and horsehide glue.Look up antique double top classic guitars someday, if you think ever guitar with "plywood " is cheap! Very true. Plywood and Laminated woods are two differt things. Quality laminated woods, such as laminated Rosewood used for the back and sides of acoustic instruments, does not typically affect tone and adds stability to the instrument. I own a 1999 Martin D-2R (NOT the stripped down DR2 they sell today). It looks just like a D-28 but with a satin finish instead of gloss and a black pickguard. The other differences between it and a D-28 are the laminated back and sides, and the top bracing is slightly lighter than the D-28. They built them from around 97 to 2001 and sold for somehwere in the $1300 - 1500 range. Apparently, the problem Martin had with this model is it was stealing sales from the D-28. Many folks would compare the sound of the two and because of the lighter top bracing, the D-2R sounded better to most. They also made a D-3R model which was trimmed out like the D-35. I came across mine used about 6 years ago when looking for a D-28. I thought it was a D-28 but after playing it and comparing it to the D-28s the dealer had I immediately put a deposit. Everything I read about it confirmed what I had experienced that day. I have no desire to own an actual D-28 anymore and haven't played one that I think compares. You can find them on craigslist and e-bay from time to time. Used they typically go for between $700 - $1100. I understand some later built ones have the Micarta (Richlite) fretboard. Mine is Ebony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8_4thesh0w Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 In a sheet of plywood, the grain of each piece making up the whole is turned 90° from the adjacent layers. There is always an odd number of layers so face and backside grains run the same direction. This is what gives plywood it's rigidity and structural appeal. A laminate can be only 2 layers, as counter-tops or veneered flooring. Laminated doesn't necessarily mean the grains are not running the same direction. It doesn't mean they are, either. If you can detect 3 distinct layers at the sound-hole, it might be plywood. ϵβ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 70th Anniverary John Lennon J-160E, is a $3,000.00 guitar.Read the specs... http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Round-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/70th-Anniversary-John-Lennon-J-160E/Specs.aspx BodyBody TypeRound ShoulderTopLaminated Sitka Spruce TopBack and SidesMahoganyBindingMulti-ply Top Binding, Single Ply Back Binding, Traditional RosetteBracingTraditional Ladder BracingNeckSpecies1-piece MahoganyProfileRound NeckThickness1.725" at NutTruss RodSingle ActionAdhesivePremium TitebondNeck FitJointCompound DovetailConstructionJoint at 15th FretAdhesiveHide GlueFingerboardSpeciesIndian RosewoodFrets21 Historic Jumbo FretsScale Length24 3/4"Radius12"Fret WireNickel AlloyInlaysMother of Pearl Trapezoids with John Lennon's birth date engraved on 12th FretAdhesivePremium TitebondNutMaterialBoneWidth1.725" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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