American Build Quality

[swampash]

I was just thinking how most, if not all Guitars that I've bought over the years that are made in North America or Canada are of the highest craftsmanship and quality. Any Rickenbacker I've bought has been flawless and my 2010 Gibson ES-335 is just incredibly, both tonally and craftsmanship.

 

So....... (gulp!)

 

Why is this same level of quality brought to the American Auto Industry? Straight upfront, this is not a trolling exercise and I'm not looking to start a fight. I just want to share my thoughts and findings as a lover of cars.

 

My job involves a lot of Travel to the US where I always have to rent a car. I've had many different types of cars from SUVs to Mustangs and onto mid size cars (Chevrolet, Ford etc....)One thing I've always found is that they must have used the worst quality of plastics for the car interiors and despite some of the enormous engine sizes, horse power is an issue, Ride and handling are questionable and suspension feels like jelly going around corners. I know friends who own cars that range from low end to high from cheap Fords and Chevrolets to Cadillac's and Lincolns. A Friend has an Escalade and it feels like the dash was cut from a wheelie bin and it's the same feeling whether it's a CTS or a Corvette, cheap and nasty interiors. UK Top Gear on BBC TV has bashed the quality of US made cars for years and it's only since I started driving them, I realise why. I had a Chevrolet Impala for a week last year in Florida and I drove it down to NASA. This was a 2015 model and was one of the worst cars I ever drove. The interior and dash was like a Daewoo I owned in 1995 (the worst car I ever owned by the way).

 

One thing I did notice was that there are a lot more Kia, Hyundai and Hondas on America's roads than ever before so maybe Americans are also realising that these cars are very well put together. Here in Europe we have our fair share of cars that come from the Far East as well as cars that are made in mainland Europe. Cars like the Volkswagen group (AUDI, Skoda and SEAT included, current engine scandal aside), Opel (made in Germany but owned by GM) and Ford are excellent not to mention BMW and Mercedes. Opel and Ford are American owned but there is a gulf in build quality between what is manufactured in Europe and what is built in the US. Every now and then Cadillac will try and launch a model in Europe which usually ends in disaster as Europeans demand higher standards in road handling and quality. It's a real shame as some of these look fantastic.

 

The Mustang is finally coming to Europe this year. As a life long fan of American Muscle Cars, when I heard this I was excited but I can't help feeling like it's not going to sell well. My favourite cars of all time came out of the US between 1964 and 1973 when the muscle cars reigned supreme. My dream cars are a 1967 Mustang Fastback or a 1971 Hemi Cuda'. It seems that after 1974, it all went to downhill. Even the US made cars from the 1920s were beautifully made and this is why a lot of them last today.

 

So this is very long winded and I apologise and hope I don't offend. I would love if the quality of American cars got back to where it should be and that we would see much more of them on our roads in Europe, but will this ever happen?

 

I hope so. As a car lover, I really hope so.

[btoth76]

Hello!

 

When You compare US and European cars, also consider their prices. For the price of a middle-class European car, You can get two US-made cars of the same class.

 

In the US, cars are means of transportation, while here, they are luxury assets. That's the main difference.

 

Of course, I would not expect US cars to invade the European market. First of all, the automotive industry is the most important driving force behind EU economy. The EU authorities do everything to ban US cars from European roads. In Hungary for example, an American car will never pass an inspection without serious modifications. I had many - the biannual inspections were always done after hours, after a talk with the inspector in a dark alley. Also, US makers don't need the EU market either.

 

Cheers... Bence

[ZettaVita]

By American-built, are you speaking of the Volkswagen plant in Tennessee, or the Toyota plant in California, or the Ford plant in Mexico?

 

Back when I was business travelling, I used to order the foreign cars, as I more often received a quality car and better mileage.

 

Not sure if we will ever get back to quality fit and finish, just too expensive for the average factory production.

 

I have a $15 Guitar Center plain black strap on my LP. It does the job. But I recently found a hand-tooled, custom curved leather strap with hand-stitched suede backing, integral pick pocket with metal trim for $135. I have a Chevy budget, but damn that Porsche looks hot.

[swampash]

Hello!

 

When You compare US and European cars, also consider their prices. For the price of a middle-class European car, You can get two US-made cars of the same class.

 

In the US, cars are means of transportation, while here, they are luxury assets. That's the main difference.

 

Of course, I would not expect US cars to invade the European market. First of all, the automotive industry is the most important driving force behind EU economy. The EU authorities do everything to ban US cars from European roads. In Hungary for example, an American car will never pass an inspection without serious modifications. I had many - the biannual inspections were always done after hours, after a talk with the inspector in a dark alley. Also, US makers don't need the EU market either.

 

Cheers... Bence

 

I think you also have to factor in the cost of living as it is a lot more expensive here so prices are relative, whether it's here or there. I wouldn't call them luxury assets, more of a necessity especially if, like me, you live in the Country and don't have a reliable public transport system. My wife drives an Opel Corsa which didn't cost very much but is very well put together.

 

I am at the other end of the scale and drive an Audi A4 Avant which is nice when you have a 94km round trip to work.

[btoth76]

I think you also have to factor in the cost of living as it is a lot more expensive here so prices are relative, whether it's here or there. I wouldn't call them luxury assets, more of a necessity especially if, like me, you live in the Country and don't have a reliable public transport system. My wife drives an Opel Corsa which didn't cost very much but is very well put together.

 

I am at the other end of the scale and drive an Audi A4 Avant which is nice when you have a 94km round trip to work.

 

Hello!

 

To me, any new car is a luxury asset. Well, I am just a middle-class guy, though. Saving up to buy any new car would take more than a lifetime for me. I ride a 19 years old Dodge, which had it's exhaust system fallen off last weekend. :D

 

Cheers... Bence

[JayinLA]

I like this topic. My opinion is that as much as those things were true just only a few years ago, I really believe that in our 'global marketplace' we are seeing some changes and a much more level playing field.

 

For example, why can we trust an Iphone or a Samsung made in the far east for $600 street price but not a $300 guitar or amp? I can say that beyond a shadow of a doubt that in the last 4 or 5 years I have played some guitars from the far east that are as close to flawless as their American cousins. And as for amps. My standard gig setup is a Bugera Tri-Rec (made in China) handwired 100 watt beast that I would put up against any Mesa or Blackstar.

 

And cars are no different. Do you want a Chevrolet built in Canada, a Ford built in Mexico, or a Toyota built in Kentucky? European cars still have a little bit of leg up, but do you want a Land Rover for $100k or a Jeep for $40?.

 

I think that as we bring our communities and cultures closer with trade and technology that these traditional lines are being blurred and will soon dissapear.

 

JMHO-JayinLA

[btoth76]

...

And cars are no different. Do you want a Chevrolet built in Canada, a Ford built in Mexico, or a Toyota built in Kentucky? European cars still have a little bit of leg up, but do you want a Land Rover for $100k or a Jeep for $40?.

 

I think that as we bring our communities and cultures closer with trade and technology that these traditional lines are being blurred and will soon disappear.

 

JMHO-JayinLA

 

Hello Jay!

 

Well, I am skeptical. If US-products were allowed to enter EU markets without import taxes, all the EU industrial sectors will collapse at once. Imagine, - from one day to another - the market will be flooded with goods that are half-priced than local products. That will be catastrophic for Europe. The leaders might sign the TTIP, - but I can tell You now -, US-made goods will not qualify EU regulations, until they become more expensive than local stuff - that's how it will be done.

 

I would go for the Jeep, by the way. Anytime!

 

Bence.

[JayinLA]

Hello Jay!

 

Well, I am skeptical. If US-products were allowed to enter EU markets without import taxes, all the EU industrial sectors will collapse at once. Imagine, - from one day to another - the market will be flooded with goods that are half-priced than local products. That will be catastrophic for Europe. The leaders might sign the TTIP, - but I can tell You now -, US-made goods will not qualify EU regulations, until they become more expensive than local stuff - that's how it will be done.

 

I would go for the Jeep, by the way. Anytime!

 

Bence.

 

 

I think that the markets will begrudginly accept the aches and pains. The manufacturing sector of the American Economy has all but disappeared in the last 25 years due to the very issue you bring up, but in America we seem to be resiliant enough to offset those losses in other sectors.

 

I don't know about the Euro-Zone as a whole...haven't been there for awhile, but in the U.K. They have the "Fair Goods...Tube you in the Arse tax." Those things may be a good thing. I don't know, but in U.S. where un-regulated capitilism must reign, even at our own demise, we are adjusting.

[swampash]

Hello Jay!

 

Well, I am skeptical. If US-products were allowed to enter EU markets without import taxes, all the EU industrial sectors will collapse at once. Imagine, - from one day to another - the market will be flooded with goods that are half-priced than local products. That will be catastrophic for Europe. The leaders might sign the TTIP, - but I can tell You now -, US-made goods will not qualify EU regulations, until they become more expensive than local stuff - that's how it will be done.

 

I would go for the Jeep, by the way. Anytime!

 

Bence.

 

Yep, that sucks. I can't buy any nice Guitars from the US as I get screwed by Customs charges before they'll release them to me. I bought a Japanese jaguar 2 years from a guy in New York that cost €600 and then got hit for another €180 from Irish Customs. :(

[jdgm]

....but in the U.K. They have the "Fair Goods...Tube you in the Arse tax."

 

I've never heard it put quite that way but you're dead right (including the English spelling)! [lol]

 

 

 

Yep, that sucks. I can't buy any nice Guitars from the US as I get screwed by Customs charges before they'll release them to me. I bought a Japanese jaguar 2 years from a guy in New York that cost €600 and then got hit for another €180 from Irish Customs. :(

 

Yes. With import duty and VAT you are going to pay another 25%....like I did.

 

Twice.

[btoth76]

...

Yes. With import duty and VAT you are going to pay another 25%....like I did.

 

...

 

Hello!

 

It works like that, locally. You buy a guitar from US. It's price is $1000. Let's say, shipping to Hungary is $150.

 

$1150 + 3% import tax = $1184.5.

 

$1185 + 27% VAT = $1504.45

 

Also, the Customs Office might charge for storage, processing fee, etc.

 

Yes, customs and VAT applies to shipping too! This is the same all over EU, expect for the VAT, which is different from country to country (UK/Germany: 19%).

 

By the way, the barrier is set at 150 EUROs - everything that costs more is liable to Custom taxes. The same barrier in the US, is $1000. Everything that costs more than 45 EUROs is liable to VAT.

 

Bence.

[merciful-evans]

American cars (in Europe) are a style choice. They are not practical. Our roads don't accommodate them well.

 

I love American guitars. I have 3.

 

however, in my experience:

 

The best designed & best built cars are Japanese.

The best build quality guitars are Japanese.

[btoth76]

American cars (in Europe) are a style choice. They are not practical. Our roads don't accommodate them well.

 

...

 

Well, not anymore. It is true for older full-size cars, with big-block engines. But, in the recent decades, US cars became similar to EU/Japanese cars in size. Also, engines got smaller. It is due to the aim of companies to provide "global" products. Automobiles share platforms as well, between manufacturers.

 

Bence.

[swampash]

 

I love American guitars. I have 3.

 

I got a 1994 MIJ 62 Reissue Strat. The hardware and finish are amazing. I dropped a set of fat 50s into it and upgraded the electronics. Now it's the only Strat I'll ever need. :)

[stein]

I think a lot of this is taste, how it's used, and how one judges quality.

 

On interiors: One problem with interiors is how long they last. To us Americans, one way we judge quality is if the interior looks new, and if it stays that way for a long, long time. What we see is different, our perspective is different. What a European sees as "cheesy" we might not see.

 

Also, reliability is one of the main concerns, if not THE main concern for Americans. We don't like to put ANY money into maintenance. And then if and when we do, we want it to cost nearly nothing and be easy to do. There, we will scoff about quality when something needs attention.

 

Then there is roads and driving habits. Our roads tend to be easy, boring, and driving is, for the most part, just sitting. And lots of traffic. Driver fatigue plays a role, and if something is "boring" to drive or more fun is more our perception when it comes to performance. Someone here can own a car and never once drive it to it's limit of performance on a corner, but still we like to "feel" the corners.

 

Having said that, with different perceptions based on conditions, I am pretty sure the Cadillac still measures up to the best of others, technically if performance is measured.

 

Americans also do drive a lot of European cars, and many have a taste for them.

[stein]

 

The best designed & best built cars are Japanese.

 

That was true, maybe about 20 years ago, but I don't think it's true anymore.

 

In the USA, Japanese cars still have a reputation for quality, and Toyota stuff actually holds a good resale value because of reputation, but statistics here show that the American counterparts have been better for some years now, in nearly every area I think.

[zigzag]

I think the issue with quality is typical of modern US business. In order to compete with the low cost of foreign labor, purchasing in US manufacturing (what's left of it) buys based primarily on price, and quality suffers. Additionally, Asian manufacturers have learned where to cut corners, how to make quality products, and still keep labor costs relatively low. Plus, they don't have to deal with the same number of regulations and union labor. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor effective regulation and workers' rights/collective bargaining. But they do affect the bottom line.

 

IMO, trade laws need to be reexamined, and manufacturing that moves offshore should be penalized. And we may want to evaluate how we tax businesses in the manufacturing sector. I also believe that if business was not responsible for paying worker healthcare costs, this would contribute a lot to the bottom line.

[stein]

I think that the markets will begrudginly accept the aches and pains. The manufacturing sector of the American Economy has all but disappeared in the last 25 years due to the very issue you bring up, but in America we seem to be resiliant enough to offset those losses in other sectors.

 

I don't know about the Euro-Zone as a whole...haven't been there for awhile, but in the U.K. They have the "Fair Goods...Tube you in the Arse tax." Those things may be a good thing. I don't know, but in U.S. where un-regulated capitilism must reign, even at our own demise, we are adjusting.

That's just the tip of the iceburg. There are tax structures, EPA regulations, and lots of cost associated with having a business within the borders of the USA, not just wages and workers rights.

 

Capitalism here is not un-regulated, it's over regulated, it's just all the wrong directions.

[stein]

American cars (in Europe) are a style choice. They are not practical. Our roads don't accommodate them well.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, not anymore. It is true for older full-size cars, with big-block engines. But, in the recent decades, US cars became similar to EU/Japanese cars in size. Also, engines got smaller. It is due to the aim of companies to provide "global" products. Automobiles share platforms as well, between manufacturers.

 

Bence.

It should be noted, in the USA, WE LOVE OUR TRUCKS! There are a lot of them here, and I might even say, 25% or so of us have at least one in a typical American household.

 

Where that is significant, they have all but replaced large cars. There are "SUV's", which are basically cars built on a truck platform. Limousines and luxury auto's are also mostly sold on truck platforms.

 

Our hunger for mass consumerism makes it so we like to be able to haul a lot of stuff.

 

It should be noted also, when I say "trucks", the trucks here are really, REALLY nice, comparable to luxury cars, with all the bells and whistles.

[btoth76]

That truck category is absent on the EU market. Full-size, luxury pickups are not offered here. However, mid-size, dual cab pickups are very popular. But those are rather utilitarian vehicles, with no comfort features. Workhorses used on city roads. Probably, a trend result of poor road conditions.

 

Bence

[charlie brown]

Real "Quality" is universal. It knows no country, or product. Markets, and budgets, tend to dictate what

we can afford, and buy. Some people don't know what real quality is, as they've either never been exposed

to it, properly, or have been brainwashed into thinking something is, what it really isn't. That's called

"Marketing!" I had a real interesting experience, 36 years ago (now), when I visited a sweater factory, in

the highlands of Scotland. They made, essentially, one quality of sweater! Great! However, at the end of

the tour, the last "station" in the factory, was where they sewed in the labeling. The exact same sweater's

end selling price, was dictated by the label, NOT the quality. So, there's that consideration, too. When

I got back to California, I started paying a LOT more attention, to construction, and fabric, on the clothes

I bought, and saved a TON of money, on "house brands" compared to the "designer" brands, of shirts, sweaters,

and slacks, even jeans. More often than not, the "house brand" was exactly the same quality, throughout,

as the "name brand/designer" at a fraction of the price. But, again, there are always exceptions. And, I started

paying a lot more attention to everything else, I purchased, as well. So, as always, it's "buyer beware!"

 

But, you know what? YOU have the choice, to be educated to making those better choices, and being willing

to pay the associated cost(s), and/or choosing not to, and being OK with "Middle of the Road," or even budget

brands and budget quality.

 

CB

[Bulldog86902]

American cars are just like the old jap cars inside,,but if u look past that,there a great Sunday drive,,good fun and very different,,AV only been in a couple of American cars,,I think there big n fun,,I usually buy subarus and toyotas,,very antisocial,lolol

[stein]

Real "Quality" is universal. It knows no country, or product.

 

CB

I don't know. I think there are definitely different perceptions and requirements for what some call "quality", based on need and taste.

 

(not that you are contradicting your post...excellent point, BTW).

 

For example, just with Gibson and a lot of the stuff posted here. Many look for finish flaws, silly stuff like that, that don't really have anything to do with a guitar's use as a music-making tool. What makes a quality guitar?

 

My 2003 Chevy 4x4 1/2 ton has 238,000+ miles, and I think I have spent less than 2k TOTAL in maintenance and repairs, usually have 200 pounds of stuff in it, sometimes hauls 1200 pounds easy, and doesn't have to stay home in the ice or snow. That plastic interior will wipe clean right now and look like new. Is a Mercedes or BMW made to higher standards? That totally depends on who is asking and what they expect.

 

Just opposite of that, same person (me) would not EVER consider a Toyota in the same league as a Cadillac. I wouldn't abide spending a good amount of time in a cheaper "feeling" car regardless of how much gas cost or what I might have to deal with. The "quality" of a Cadillac has to deteriorate after many miles and years before a new Toyota is "as good", which usually never happens because they just ain't all that nice to me to begin with.

[Bulldog86902]

I owned a 500bhp Subaru last year,,got pics,,I spent thousands onit,,AV gave that up now,,was fun,something I just wanted to do,,then I built a starlet 1.3 turbo,350 bhp,,just for fun,,nowadays I just buy guitar strings,,that's all ma misses will allow,,kids house n misses put an end to my car fun,lol,,

[Bulldog86902]