jdgm Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 For that reason, according to the criteria I've described, all other things being equal, a great blues guitarist can never be as good as a great jazz player. Whoah! You mean technically...? Robben Ford and several others belie this though. Standards are very high. ....I'm very familiar with the 'Cutting Contest' concept - having been subjected to it myself in my youth - and whilst I fully understand it's purpose I still have an intense dislike for the practice and, by extension, a deep-seated mistrust of anyone who should choose to employ it primarily as a means to debase and embarrass players with lesser abilities than the chief protagonist. Personally I prefer - and choose - to play with other musicians and not against them. Others will have a different preference, of course. Pip. I agree with and applaud this post about a million% =D> from experience..... BTW the harpsichord thing....think the tuning and er, disposition (yes harpsichords have a particular disposition) might not be ideally suited to the genre....IMO... Quills. That's it. Quills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Personally I prefer - and choose - to play with other musicians and not against them. Others will have a different preference, of course. Pip. Nobody I care to play 'with' would have a different preference. Couldn't have said that better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 WTF is a harpsichord anyway? I think it's what the angles play in Vallhalla when a viking croaks. Commonly known as a norseharp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karloff Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 There are blues guitarists I'm a fan of & some I'm not. There are rock guitarists I'm a fan of & some I'm not. There are metal guitarists I'm a fan of & some I'm not. What I'm not a fan of is ego, arrogance & posturing. Regardless the genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 1460405384[/url]' post='1760021']WTF is a harpsichord anyway? I thought it was that thing you wanted to play heavy metal on! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyMoon Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Personally I prefer - and choose - to play with other musicians and not against them. Others will have a different preference, of course. Pip. Agreed 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyMoon Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I thought it was that thing you wanted to play heavy metal on! Lol ...are you sure it's not a species of fish!!?!!!.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 1460426388[/url]' post='1760126']...are you sure it's not a species of fish!!?!!!.. I thought you could Tunafish but you couldn't Play one? Ha! However, down in the Outback, Digger does come up with some strange names of fish I've never heard of before. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinch Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Jay: I hear ya, but none of the guitarists you mentioned ever played death metal :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 John Coltrane proved that you could play modally over the most complex chords that McCoy Tyner, or anybody in the Miles Davis camp could dish out, and yes, he cut the hell out of all the other sax players. (See Cannonball Aderly or Eric Dolphy) Coltrane's earlier work as a sideman: He used charts to navigate / substitute / interpret chord patterns. He didnt play modally then because it would not work with those arrangements. What he did subsequently (eg: his quartet) was modal because the chords used permitted it. The arrangements were specifically designed to do that. Modal playing cannot work with mainstream jazz standards. This applies to nearly everything in the real book. Furthermore: I disagree that he 'cut the hell out of all the other sax players'. You are expressing a personal opinion as if it were factual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Whoah! You mean technically...? Robben Ford and several others belie this though. Standards are very high. No. Not technically. Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I doodled on a harpsichord once I was very disappointed perhaps bad luck or poor set up...but it was very quiet... Relies on plucked strings as opposed to the loud potential hammered strings of a piano Jews' Harps...Jaws' Harps are huge fun, automatically humorous and very yee haw There was a recent facebook post looking for heavy metal accordionists to audition :blink: The answer...as for most things in life...is a harpsichord patch uploaded into one's accordion.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I confess I have not heard Randy Rhoads playing, but I fundamentally disagree. It has to do with what criteria you use to rate 'better' & 'best'. Any guitar player should be able to play in any time signature and mode. It only takes some application and a little practice. I dont believe that the accumilation of technique or speed is very important in assessing a player. I think its more about how much the player knows, and what he knows is usually informed by the music being played. Certain classical and jazz music is more demanding to play than any other I know of because of its complexity. For example, the chords in mainstream jazz are dense. You cant use a scale or a mode to improvise over them. The notes you use will be usually need to be directly tailored to the chord being played at any one time. That immediately makes a jazz players job more demanding. For that reason, according to the criteria I've described, all other things being equal, a great blues guitarist can never be as good as a great jazz player. However, there is another criteria that has validity also. How much do you enjoy a guitarists playing? If you use that, and most non players do; anyone could be the greatest guitarist. It then come down to your ability to move people emotionally. Music is being treated more and more as something other than an art form. You can look at it that way, but that removes it from its primary purpose for being there. Above is what you wrote. I think. Which includes - ......"That immediately makes a jazz players job more demanding. For that reason, according to the criteria I've described, all other things being equal, a great blues guitarist can never be as good as a great jazz player." Um. So if you don't mean technically, what do you mean? Of course many jazz chord sequences are more demanding (so the jazz player needs to have much technique and harmonic knowledge to deal with them), but a blues player still needs to refer to or reflect the chords in some way, in his/her line. And a blues player with a knowledge of jazz harmony and the technique to use it, can imply chord extensions and alterations well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. C.O. Jones Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I doodled on a harpsichord once I was very disappointed perhaps bad luck or poor set up...but it was very quiet... Relies on plucked strings as opposed to the loud potential hammered strings of a piano Jews' Harps...Jaws' Harps are huge fun, automatically humorous and very yee haw There was a recent facebook post looking for heavy metal accordionists to audition :blink: The answer...as for most things in life...is a harpsichord patch uploaded into one's accordion.... V Yup accordion and metal arent strangers, at least for me. There are lots of bands that use unusual instruments for metal. I really like some of them, don't really care if they also play blues, jazz, classical or whatever. Finntroll for example, not death metal more like trollmetal just to name one. Those guys use banjos too, and I love it. For those interested the Nifelvind album is a good example. And right now I don't remember who did but the harpsichord has been used at lest for some intros in the heavy genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinch Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 King Diamond and Mercyful Fate were no strangers to harpsichord. As for shredding, this, that, the other... I couldn't outplay Chuck Schuldiner from Death, rest his soul. I can't outplay Mike Amott - if you want to get technical about it, his last REAL death metal recording was Carcass' "Necroticism- descanting the insalubrious". I love "Heartwork", though. I grew up on death metal, so it's almost inevitable for me to say that "Heartwork" is more of a technical thrash album with grunty vocals than its forerunners, but... Oh boy, listen to Mike's lead on "Buried dreams". That's the ONLY wah part I've liked in my life. Class. On topic, I couldn't play Muddy Waters' songs as well as he did, either. Am I a fan? No. Guess what I'm trying to say is, don't think "in genres". Ppl like Chuck, and, say, Bill Steer and Mike Amott back in the day... You can't say their playing wasn't soulful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Above is what you wrote. I think. Which includes - ......"That immediately makes a jazz players job more demanding. For that reason, according to the criteria I've described, all other things being equal, a great blues guitarist can never be as good as a great jazz player." Um. So if you don't mean technically, what do you mean? Of course many jazz chord sequences are more demanding (so the jazz player needs to have much technique and harmonic knowledge to deal with them), but a blues player still needs to refer to or reflect the chords in some way, in his/her line. And a blues player with a knowledge of jazz harmony and the technique to use it, can imply chord extensions and alterations well enough. I dont believe that the accumilation of technique or speed is very important in assessing a player. I think its more about how much the player knows, and what he knows is usually informed by the music being played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. C.O. Jones Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Oh talking about unusual instruments..... Let me G-Force this on you people: Oh how I miss Switzerland! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karloff Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 King Diamond and Mercyful Fate were no strangers to harpsichord. As for shredding, this, that, the other... I couldn't outplay Chuck Schuldiner from Death, rest his soul. I can't outplay Mike Amott - if you want to get technical about it, his last REAL death metal recording was Carcass' "Necroticism- descanting the insalubrious". I love "Heartwork", though. I grew up on death metal, so it's almost inevitable for me to say that "Heartwork" is more of a technical thrash album with grunty vocals than its forerunners, but... Oh boy, listen to Mike's lead on "Buried dreams". That's the ONLY wah part I've liked in my life. Class. On topic, I couldn't play Muddy Waters' songs as well as he did, either. Am I a fan? No. Guess what I'm trying to say is, don't think "in genres". Ppl like Chuck, and, say, Bill Steer and Mike Amott back in the day... You can't say their playing wasn't soulful. really good post ... kinda what I was shooting for with my last one. If it's good, it's good. and that is subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrian66 Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 I suppose what I was meaning is that Metal Guitarists can kill it in other Genre's but rarely is the reverse true. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoZrblh2r3w First, I agree with you on the metal guitar players. Some of the best in the world and my genre of choice. But, they are not the only ones who can play something outside their genre really well.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xssnp7R51A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinch Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 Thanks, mr. Karloff :) Style loyalty is one thing, stubborness another. Then again, each to their own. But please don't be afraid to dip your toe in the water! (Caution adviced to Aussies, of course.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 But, they are not the only ones who can play something outside their genre really well.... Damn!! I remember that episode like it was yesterday. Thanks for posting that. Roy was/is a freakin monster player. member seeing him on Hee Haw all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrian66 Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Damn!! I remember that episode like it was yesterday. Thanks for posting that. Roy was/is a freakin monster player. member seeing him on Hee Haw all the time. Her Haw was a regular at my house. One of those "whole family around the TV" events. Great memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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