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uneven neck finish in new J45

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On 1/17/2020 at 3:03 AM, fortyearspickn said:

I'm guessing you've let it sit on a guitar stand too long and the dimple is from uncured Nitrocellulose resting on the rubber-coated neck support. 

Wow, , , btw. how long should we say it takes nitrocellulose to harden -  6 months ?

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11 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

Wow, , , btw. how long should we say it takes nitrocellulose to harden -  6 months ?

Oh, dear, now you've gone & done it- your words will conjure the Zombywoof for sure. . . he'd no doubt want to remind us that nitrocellulose lacquer never really finishes curing, even though we all know what you mean to ask is how long does it take for the finish to be less reactive to things such as. . . 

- guitar stands

-tuners left on headstocks

-the sheets of bubble wrap sometimes used to pack guitars in cases

Well, "the ants are my friends", and they tell me that there is no definitive answer. Too many variables- 6 months? a year? To be safe, best just to avoid things that can react with the finish. 

A good number of posts on this thread since OP Fenderbender checked in. And in that OP, he mentioned the dimple in question being around the 3rd fret. I just dug out one of those taller guitar stands (the type voted most likely to tip over)- the contact area is around the 10th/11th fret, not the 3rd. And a wall mounted hanger would be around the nut, or points north. So maybe not a guitar stand reaction. A capo, perhaps? Nick started to mention the nature of working with mahogany- his post looked like he meant to use the word "soft", but forgot to type it in(?). But he, and OP 'bender wondered if it could also have been in the wood itself. After a long time wishing G would make a 12 fret J-45, and trying their deep-bodied guitars that circled around that idea, I finally got to try a few J-45 12 frets. . . ironic that the best sounding one had the most finish issues. Wanting to love it, and make it work irregardless, it's still confounding- thin finishes might allow for better sound, but don't be put off if that finish shows areas where it's sinking into the beautiful tricolor bursted top. And some other bits of "character"- like this curious spot located (conveniently) on the waist of the lower bout, where a set of keys in a pocket could've caused it when still fresh out of the oven, or maybe it was it the wood, all along. EDIT: In looking at this photo- another possibility- how about damage from a wood boring insect?

Either way, I can't see it from my window:

cEvqug8.jpg

If there is a rough edge that the OP feels is distracting while playing, and he hasn't got his head right to see it as a happy place to rest a thumb/finger while playing, then maybe he could find the StewMac vid on YouTube where Dan E demonstrates the drop fill technique, bring the area up to level, as opposed to risk sanding down the edge.

Edited by 62burst

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Sorry I didn't finish comments on mahogany. It varies from almost iron-hard to fairly soft, but not as soft as woods like spruce and cedar. It does dent fairly easily on impact  in general, although the surface does air-harden a bit over time. Likewise, the color varies from pale  white/pink to very dark reddish brown. Old-growth true mahoganies are getting rare. These are the ones furniture makers prized back in the 18th-19th century in North America for its great widths, plus depth of color and character when finished.

It has some great advantages, depending on how you saw it. Typically, quarter-sawn mahogany has tight, straight grain. If you look at Gibsons from the late 1940's through mid-1950's, you see this wonderful straight-grain mahogany in necks, backs, and sides. You obviously want the grain as straight as possible for necks, with as little run-out as possible.

If the tree is big enough, you can get a lot of suitable guitar-building wood out of it. Plain-saw it, and you can get grain with a lot of character, but it is difficult to plane cleanly, so there can be a fair amount of waste.

There is an amazing, near-mythical mahogany tree simply referred to as The Tree. When alive--it was harvested in 1965, and little of it is left-- it was a huge tree, estimated at about 11,000 board feet. The wood is heavily quilted, with stunning effects. It has been cut into numerous sections which have sold at astounding prices to custom instrument makers and fine furniture makers over the years. Prices are sort of like the giant bluefin tuna market in Japan.

Stewmac has a few dreadnought back/sides sets from The Tree. For comparison, Stewmac's standard Honduran mahogany back/side sets sell for about $120-$130. Their back/sides sets from The Tree sell for $2300 to $6000.

It's truly a wonderful wood if you're a furniture make, boatbuilder, or luthier. 

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7 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

Wow, , , btw. how long should we say it takes nitrocellulose to harden -  6 months ?


nitro has no hardener. It will remain the same.   With nitro when sprayed. Its thin. Many coats are applied to achieve a smooth finish.  In warm weather they are really nice.  When there subjected to cold weather or dryness. They crack with very fine checking. Reason, it shrinks over time   Thats why the fine checking  . 

As for staining , thats why they recommend you wipe the guitar down after playing to keep acids or oily hands from staining   
back in the 90s Gibson had those pink lined cases  you ever notice those pink liners staining the guitars  right into the finishes  

 Not like urethane clear  where it has a catalyst.  Where it drys hard. And thick. When it freezes it looks like cracked glass. Very deep cracks.  But the durability is there. Greasy fingers to laying on a rubber matt wont hurt the finish 

 

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16 hours ago, 62burst said:

Oh, dear, now you've gone & done it- your words will conjure the Zombywoof for sure. . . he'd no doubt want to remind us that nitrocellulose lacquer never really finishes curing, even though we all know what you mean to ask is how long does it take for the finish to be less reactive to things such as. . . 

- guitar stands

-tuners left on headstocks

-the sheets of bubble wrap sometimes used to pack guitars in cases

Well, "the ants are my friends", and they tell me that there is no definitive answer. Too many variables- 6 months? a year? To be safe, best just to avoid things that can react with the finish. 

 

Yeesss, fascinating that coat keeps working and never finds rest, , , but thought about the start phase from soft'n'sticky to normal.

Not least G-newbies should learn about that. 

I mean, the first summer behind my 2010 J-45 isn't forgotten.  The black grease cakes generated on the neck  sent whirling  questionmarks and strange flies around my head.  I'd say it cured the following winter, perhaps even needed another spring.  And still recall how some lighter scratches on the upper bout back was reduced with a cotton cloth.  Again after repeated circle-buff maneuvres.  A totally new experience here. 

Is it fair to state - "The lacquer never reaches a  final level - it only pretends to sometimes sleep". Not really sure - the vintage  Gibsons here all seem  stiff-stabile. 

Then again wouldn't place the 1953er in the sun, , , it would probaly turn to caramel. . 

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If you actually play the guitar it will wear through the finish on the neck anyway.

Also, mine have all had to work in the sun from time to time. That's where the money was that day...

If you bought it to look at, or to show off, send it back. If you intend to play it, it's going to get bruised up a bit anyway.

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5 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

Yeesss, fascinating that coat keeps working and never finds rest, , , but thought about the start phase from soft'n'sticky to normal.

Not least G-newbies should learn about that. 

I mean, the first summer behind my 2010 J-45 isn't forgotten.  The black grease cakes generated on the neck  sent whirling  questionmarks and strange flies around my head.  I'd say it cured the following winter, perhaps even needed another spring.  And still recall how some lighter scratches on the upper bout back was reduced with a cotton cloth.  Again after repeated circle-buff maneuvres.  A totally new experience here. 

Is it fair to state - "The lacquer never reaches a  final level - it only pretends to sometimes sleep". Not really sure - the vintage  Gibsons here all seem  stiff-stabile. 

Then again wouldn't place the 1953er in the sun, , , it would probaly turn to caramel. . 

The sticky nitro neck syndrome on new guitars is something I've never experienced on any of the new Gibsons I've ever bought. And no newbie guitar has certainly ever served me up some, uh. . . black grease cakes. But as I like an easy glide on the guitar neck, I've always reduced the friction on the neck with Virt. polish. Finish on the neck ain't wearing down that way, either. 

And I know we're supposed to say nitrocellulose lacquer never finishes curing, but those finishes on 70 year old instruments. . . stick a fork in them- they are DONE. Nitro becomes brittle with age- it was prone to chipping. Auto makers were glad to switch to more modern finishes, but it's that same hardness that plays a part in giving old guitars their rattle and clarity. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, 62burst said:

 

And I know we're supposed to say nitrocellulose lacquer never finishes curing, but those finishes on 70 year old instruments. . . stick a fork in them- they are DONE. Nitro becomes brittle with age- it was prone to chipping. Auto makers were glad to switch to more modern finishes, but it's that same hardness that plays a part in giving old guitars their rattle and clarity. 

Agree with you on this one, but old lacquer has some interesting properties. The video below shows how Mamie Minch of Brooklyn Lutherie repairs surface scratches on brittle vintage lacquer surfaces while maintaining the original finish. (You'll want to skip the ad at the start if it shows up.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FISY9I6pQdQ

 

Edited by j45nick
additional clarification

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On 1/18/2020 at 5:01 PM, Jinder said:

I'd just play it.  My '95 Dove has lacquer checking out the wazoo and has barely any lacquer left on the back of the neck. I don't notice it at all. Every time I pick it up, a new song falls out of it...I can forgive the flaws, because I know there are far more flaws on the skin of the hand that meets the neck than there are on the neck that meets the skin of the hand.

 

 

 

Beautiful, you sir are a poet

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How about this would any of you guys buy a new car and accept the fact that your paint needed to cure for another 6 months while you drove it around?

Edited by Sgt. Pepper
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16 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

How about this would any of you guys buy a new car and accept the fact that your paint needed to cure for another 6 months while you drove it around?

I'm sure you can find a better analogy than that, sergeant. Btw. isn't your avatar-line from a Fab-tune ? , , , something rings like ex-Winston.

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18 minutes ago, E-minor7 said:

I'm sure you can find a better analogy than that, sergeant. Btw. isn't your avatar-line from a Fab-tune ? , , , something rings like ex-Winston.

Its the example I used, but I'm sure you get the point.  The quote is  from Revolution #9 in case you didn't know Side 4 of The Beatles aka The White  Album the second to last track on the album. The fact of the matter is the guitar is going out of the shop before the finish is cured. Many people know it, but many don't. Many people also don't know that breathing near a nitro guitar can disturb the finish (I'm kidding there) but you also know what I'm alluding to, leaving a guitar in a stand, leaving on a tuner for more that the time it takes to tune up ect ect can stain and leave marks on it. The guy has a problem with and expensive guitar, and he may not know how nitro reacts with everything in the world, and all you guy want to do is cut him down and tell him he's being silly. 

I'm sot sure what ex-Winston is supposed to mean? An insult of some kind I'm sure.

Edited by Sgt. Pepper
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10 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Its the example I used, but I'm sure you get the point.  The quote is  from Revolution #9 in case you didn't know Side 4 of The Beatles aka The White  Album the second to last track on the album. The fact of the matter is the guitar is going out of the shop before the finish is cured. Many people know it, but many don't. Many people also don't know that breathing near a nitro guitar can disturb the finish (I'm kidding there) but you also know what I'm alluding to, leaving a guitar in a stand, leaving on a tuner for more that the time it takes to tune up ect ect can stain and leave marks on it. The guy has a problem with and expensive guitar, and he may not know how nitro reacts with everything in the world, and all you guy want to do is cut him down and tell him he's being silly. 

I'm sot sure what ex-Winston is supposed to mean? An insult of some kind I'm sure.

It's Lennon's ex middlename, , , after the Prime Minister of course.  He skipped it when goin' anti-establishment.  Could very well be around the time of the quote. 

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I think he took the quote from when he made How I Won The War and used it in one of the biggest wastes of 6 minutes The Beatles ever recorded, but not positive.

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3 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I think he took the quote from when he made How I Won The War and used it in one of the biggest wastes of 6 minutes The Beatles ever recorded, but not positive.

Assume you have seen the new  private Lennon-photos taken during the film-work - if not look them up.  Think they surfaced last year or something.

Regarding R#9 I don't agree. The controversial collage was a 'job' that had to be done back in the day and noone was better suited to lift the task than  ex-Winston and his new wife.  I was a kid when getting the album 5 years after the release. #9 sure spooked me, but it showed something as well.  From the start some liked others disliked it. People opened up or shut down. I still belong in the first group. 

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I to this day rarely if ever listen to Rev 9 and The White Album is my all time favorite album and not just by them. Of all time. It is an Acid fueled POS in my opinion. I even love Wild Honey Pie and Ob-la- di OB-la-da. But 9 is poo stacked on garbage that is in a pile of vomit. As far as John goes he tried to do some good with his political activism but he was also  became nothing more than rich a-hole whose solo music I like the first 2 and not much more. Pauls early stuff till about Back to the Egg I like and he's solo stuff I play the most. George I usually listen to only ATMP, and Ringo to me is a drummer. A good one and the one that was a fit for the Beatles, but his career is silly. I'm real about music and do not tolerate musicians resting on their laurels.  If its garbage I'll call it such. Now we tuned this into a Fab 4 thread. Now back you you J-45 guys telling some one not to worry about a mark on his $2500 guitar. 

Edited by Sgt. Pepper

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38 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I to this day rarely if ever listen to Rev 9 and The White Album is my all time favorite album and not just by them. Of all time. It is an Acid fueled POS in my opinion. I even love Wild Honey Pie and Ob-la- di OB-la-da. But 9 is poo stacked on garbage that is in a pile of vomit. As far as John goes he tried to do some good with his political activism but he was also  became nothing more than rich a-hole whose solo music I like the first 2 and not much more. Pauls early stuff till about Back to the Egg I like and he's solo stuff I play the most. George I usually listen to only ATMP, and Ringo to me is a drummer. A good one and the one that was a fit for the Beatles, but his career is silly. I'm real about music and do not tolerate musicians resting on their laurels.  If its garbage I'll call it such. Now we tuned this into a Fab 4 thread. Now back you you J-45 guys telling some one not to worry about a mark on his $2500 guitar. 

If something is garbage to you, you should certainly continue to call it garbage. 

Just one last Q :

Is pepper referring to  the coloured fresh fruits or the puristic brown-black corn ?

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1 hour ago, E-minor7 said:

If something is garbage to you, you should certainly continue to call it garbage. 

Just one last Q :

Is pepper referring to  the coloured fresh fruits or the puristic brown-black corn ?

I'm not sure what you are referring to with your question. If it is supposed to be funny I don't get it, if its supposed to be an insult once again I don't get it.

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19 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I'm not sure what you are referring to with your question. If it is supposed to be funny I don't get it, if its supposed to be an insult once again I don't get it.

It's just a question - nothing behind it. Thought there was a chance you might have a take on this. . 

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Sorry, Sgt Pepper if you’re looking to find insults from Emin7, you’re looking in the wrong place. Maybe there’s an argument forum with an insult sub-forum somewhere.  Emin7 might seem to be very good for an English-as a-second -language person, but combine that with a proclivity for mystery, and things can be misinterpreted. 

and what does ATMP stand for?

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9 minutes ago, 62burst said:

Sorry, Sgt Pepper if you’re looking to find insults from Emin7, you’re looking in the wrong place. Maybe there’s an argument forum with an insult sub-forum somewhere.  Emin7 might seem to be very good for an English-as a-second -language person, but combine that with a proclivity for mystery, and things can be misinterpreted. 

and what does ATMP stand for?

All Things Must Pass. Ok I just have no idea what his question means, so how am I supposed to take it and it seems he is not explaining it. That's all. I can talk all day about The Beatles, but don't you guys want to get back to J-45's

Edited by Sgt. Pepper
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2 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

burst & Pepper ~  xwegLAm.jpg

You must be in the UK, you spell color with a "u" in the word.

Edited by Sgt. Pepper

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Pepper,       Yesterday: "An insult of some kind, I'm sure."    Today:  "... if it's supposed to be an insult once again I don't get it." 

                     Usually, on this forum,  when your insulted - you're sure of it.   To the best of my knowledge, Em7 has never come close to insulting anyone here.   (Wish I could say the same about me. )

 The OP said his necks imperfection was only visible when held up to reflective light and he hadn't felt it on the neck until then.  So, not a major issue.  Just something to ask about. 

There is no way to know if it left Bozeman that way.  Chances are better it was sprayed evenly and smoothly and the issue was created later by a capo or other item on  the  uncured/undried finish.  This forum often gets questions from people experiencing a new facet of guitar ownership. Sometimes when the issue is small (interior bracing not sanded with 400 grit sandpaper) some members respond with  "Just Play The Thing".   Not meant to be insulting.     Just like the cliche  'Drive it like it's stolen."  isn't meant to suggest the person concerned with a shopping cart ding on his new car is an actual car thief.    

 

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18 minutes ago, fortyearspickn said:

Pepper,       Yesterday: "An insult of some kind, I'm sure."    Today:  "... if it's supposed to be an insult once again I don't get it." 

                     Usually, on this forum,  when your insulted - you're sure of it.   To the best of my knowledge, Em7 has never come close to insulting anyone here.   (Wish I could say the same about me. )

 The OP said his necks imperfection was only visible when held up to reflective light and he hadn't felt it on the neck until then.  So, not a major issue.  Just something to ask about. 

There is no way to know if it left Bozeman that way.  Chances are better it was sprayed evenly and smoothly and the issue was created later by a capo or other item on  the  uncured/undried finish.  This forum often gets questions from people experiencing a new facet of guitar ownership. Sometimes when the issue is small (interior bracing not sanded with 400 grit sandpaper) some members respond with  "Just Play The Thing".   Not meant to be insulting.     Just like the cliche  'Drive it like it's stolen."  isn't meant to suggest the person concerned with a shopping cart ding on his new car is an actual car thief.    

 

Look I'm not trying to start a fight. He asked me a question and I had no idea what it meant or was referring to that's all. If he is from the UK his question may mean something else on that side of the pond and got lost in translation. Just like a truck over here, is a lorry over there and an elevator here is a lift there. That's all.

I like you have no idea how the OP received the guitar or why it is like that (capo, stand, came that way, ect ect). And it seems like he doesn't either, but it seems like everyone is ready to jump down his throat for wanting his guitar to say new looking. So, I'll stay out of it at let him answer for himself.

Edited by Sgt. Pepper
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