A non-Gibson general guitar question….

[dhanners623]

Pre-War Guitars has come out with its Norman Blake Collection of 12-fret dreads and if you’ve got several thousand bucks to spend, they look like darn-fine guitars. But I note they feature “bar frets.” So is there any particular advantage/disadvantage to bar frets over what we’re accustomed to today? Or is it just a period-correct thing?

I also note PWG has this notice/disclaimer when discussing the collection’s use of bar frets:

*These guitars are compression fretted, with a non-adjustable ebony reinforcement rod. As a result, they will be light, responsive, period-correct, and will not be able to have the neck relief adjusted. They will sometimes require a more generous attitude about what constitutes an acceptable setup, and/or a different saddle for different seasons to account for movement of the wood due to changing conditions.

The guitars feature through-cut saddles; in my experience, they’re always glued in and so raising the action at the saddle is kind of a major undertaking. When I had my dread built back in 2011, I wanted a through-cut saddle. Kevin Schwab, the luthier/repairman building the guitar, argued against it, saying changing the height of a drop-in saddle is much easier. But he relented and the guitar has a through-cut saddle. In 11 years and living in four different countries with different climates, I’ve never had need to adjust it.

[Murph]

8 minutes ago, dhanners623 said:

 Or is it just a period-correct thing?

 

I think both.

It's a period correct thing, but it also gives you a little more "meat" to make fine adjustments with a slight level.

Either way, Norman is cool, so there's that...

[dhanners623]

3 minutes ago, Murph said:

 

I think both.

It's a period correct thing, but it also gives you a little more "meat" to make fine adjustments with a slight level.

Either way, Norman is cool, so there's that...

Yeah, I figured if Blake signed off on it (literally and figuratively, since he signed the labels and a letter of authentication for each guitar) it is probably cool. There’s a nice video on their website showing him playing and talking about the guitars. I’d post a link, but that would be disrespectful of our Gibson hosts. The PWG website is easy enough to find.

[zombywoof]

In this case I am assuming it would be a nod to period correctness for pre-1934 Martins.  Bar frets did serve a purpose which was to help keep the neck from cupping on guitars which lacked truss rods.  As noted, compression fretting is pretty much replacing what is there with bar frets.

Edited October 2, 2022 by zombywoof

[kidblast]

1 hour ago, dhanners623 said:

*These guitars are compression fretted, with a non-adjustable ebony reinforcement rod. As a result, they will be light, responsive, period-correct, and will not be able to have the neck relief adjusted. They will sometimes require a more generous attitude about what constitutes an acceptable setup, and/or a different saddle for different seasons to account for movement of the wood due to changing conditions.

That pretty glaring disclaimer.  Not that I care much about anything period correct or even want one but if I did?

I wouldn't now.

[zombywoof]

7 minutes ago, kidblast said:

That pretty glaring disclaimer.  Not that I care much about anything period correct or even want one but if I did?

I wouldn't now.

I can vouch for the fact it works.   My repair guy went with compression fretting to deal with my 1956 Harmony H40 the neck of which had a severe back bow.  Going with bar frets not only solved the problem quickly but the neck has remained stable.

Edited October 2, 2022 by zombywoof

[kidblast]

16 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

I can vouch for the fact it works.   My repair guy went with compression fretting to deal with my 1956 Harmony H40 the neck of which had a severe back bow.  Going with bar frets not only solved the problem quickly but the neck has remained stable.

I must learn more then about "compression fretting" 

[Larsongs]

I would have no interest in a Guitar without a Truss Rod to adjust Necks.. At some point every Guitar needs some Neck adjustment.. 

[Dave F]

I had an '82 custom Martin HD28 built to prewar specs with Brazilian RW, bar frets, German Spruce, chunky vee neck,  .....

I did not care for the feel of the narrow bar frets. Also, when I wanted to get the neck adjusted the skilled luthiers that do the compression frets are few and far between.

I saw that Norman Blake article too. The bar frets and neck shape were a turn off for me. 

[dhanners623]

46 minutes ago, Larsongs said:

I would have no interest in a Guitar without a Truss Rod to adjust Necks.. At some point every Guitar needs some Neck adjustment.. 

Yes, but…. It’s a 12-fret neck, so you’ve got less length and movement to worry about. (Or fret over, as the case may be….) There are plenty of guitars out there without truss rods whose necks don’t need adjusting any more than guitars with truss rods. If it’s built properly to begin with, that is.

I think PWG’s disclaimer explains the player has to adjust his/her expectations about playability on such guitars. Some days it might feel the way you want, and some days it might not. The target market of these guitars (particularly the instruments with Brazilian rosewood) is such that I’m guessing the buyers know this.

[jdgm]

https://hazeguitars.com/blog/vintage-refretting-with-bar-frets

[olie]

And then there's the tiny detail of U.S. $25,000. But then they've made but 6 of them.

[Larsongs]

39 minutes ago, dhanners623 said:

Yes, but…. It’s a 12-fret neck, so you’ve got less length and movement to worry about. (Or fret over, as the case may be….) There are plenty of guitars out there without truss rods whose necks don’t need adjusting any more than guitars with truss rods. If it’s built properly to begin with, that is.

I think PWG’s disclaimer explains the player has to adjust his/her expectations about playability on such guitars. Some days it might feel the way you want, and some days it might not. The target market of these guitars (particularly the instruments with Brazilian rosewood) is such that I’m guessing the buyers know this.

Wait til you’ve owned one for 50 years..  I’ve seen plenty of older non Truss Rod high quality Guitars that needed Neck adjustments.. No more for me..

More power to those who want one.. 

Another Nit I have is the Truss Rod Adjustment at the Body.. You have to remove the Neck to adjust by trial & error.. I won’t buy another Guitar like that either.. 

Again, more power to those who want them…

[dhanners623]

31 minutes ago, jdgm said:

https://hazeguitars.com/blog/vintage-refretting-with-bar-frets

Informative. Having never played a guitar with bar frets, I wonder what they feel like. All in all, though, it sounds like T-frets are a modern feature I can continue living with just fine.

[Dave F]

29 minutes ago, dhanners623 said:

Informative. Having never played a guitar with bar frets, I wonder what they feel like. All in all, though, it sounds like T-frets are a modern feature I can continue living with just fine.

It felt like a screw driver tip

[tpbiii]

Quote

Pre-War Guitars has come out with its Norman Blake Collection of 12-fret dreads and if you’ve got several thousand bucks to spend, they look like darn-fine guitars. But I note they feature “bar frets.” So is there any particular advantage/disadvantage to bar frets over what we’re accustomed to today? Or is it just a period-correct thing?

I also note PWG has this notice/disclaimer when discussing the collection’s use of bar frets:

*These guitars are compression fretted, with a non-adjustable ebony reinforcement rod. As a result, they will be light, responsive, period-correct, and will not be able to have the neck relief adjusted. They will sometimes require a more generous attitude about what constitutes an acceptable setup, and/or a different saddle for different seasons to account for movement of the wood due to changing conditions.

The guitars feature through-cut saddles; in my experience, they’re always glued in and so raising the action at the saddle is kind of a major undertaking. When I had my dread built back in 2011, I wanted a through-cut saddle. Kevin Schwab, the luthier/repairman building the guitar, argued against it, saying changing the height of a drop-in saddle is much easier. But he relented and the guitar has a through-cut saddle. In 11 years and living in four different countries with different climates, I’ve never had need to adjust it.

I guess people will buy anything.  I have a lot of old guitars with bar frets.  Also have three old guitars that actually belonged to Norman Blake -- I traded with him in 2005. 

First some generalities.  Bar fret necks are compression freted -- and when neck work is done, each fret may need to be of a different size.  When correctly maintained and set up, I have not found them to be a problem, but when they need neck work there are only a few people who can do it right, and it can be very expensive.

Here are my "Norman Blake" guitars -- 1930 Larson Brothers, 1934 Martin 00-40H, and c. 1900 Almcrantz.

I would put that 00-40H -- as Normans favorite for about a full decade -- as the "other" famous Norman Blake guitar.

Of course people have actual old guitars mostly because they can't be sonically copied by new guitars. 

 

When Norman Blake bought the 00-40H Martin in the 1990s and set it up to be his main guitar for around a decade, HE HAD JOHN ARNOLD REWORK THE NECK AND REPLACE THE BAR FRETS WITH TANG FRETS.  I guess that tells you what Norman thought of bar frets😎

Let's pick,

-Tom

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by tpbiii

[ksdaddy]

My dad’s (now mine) 1981 Martin M-38 came with bar frets. Not comfortable. The neck developed a little too much relief and was corrected by Dana Bourgeois around 1983-84, back before he became famous. In 2005 I sent it to Johnny Rushing in TN for a neck reset and at the same time I had him replace the board with a new ebony one with normal tang frets and abalone snowflake inlays. I still don’t like it. Should have left it sitting in the case. Sounds like a million, plays like dog s——. 

[dhanners623]

13 hours ago, tpbiii said:

I guess people will buy anything.  I have a lot of old guitars with bar frets.  Also have three old guitars that actually belonged to Norman Blake -- I traded with him in 2005. 

First some generalities.  Bar fret necks are compression freted -- and when neck work is done, each fret may need to be of a different size.  When correctly maintained and set up, I have not found them to be a problem, but when they need neck work there are only a few people who can do it right, and it can be very expensive.

Here are my "Norman Blake" guitars -- 1930 Larson Brothers, 1934 Martin 00-40H, and c. 1900 Almcrantz.

I would put that 00-40H -- as Normans favorite for about a full decade -- as the "other" famous Norman Blake guitar.

Of course people have actual old guitars mostly because they can't be sonically copied by new guitars. 

 

When Norman Blake bought the 00-40H Martin in the 1990s and set it up to be his main guitar for around a decade, HE HAD JOHN ARNOLD REWORK THE NECK AND REPLACE THE BAR FRETS WITH TANG FRETS.  I guess that tells you what Norman thought of bar frets😎

Let's pick,

-Tom

 

 

 

Those three are beautiful guitars.

I’m getting a hankering for a 12-fret dread. Not at PWG’s prices, though….