Gibson Archtop - Need help identifying

[JO'C]

I'm looking at an estate sale and this looks interesting:

Listed as a Johnny Smith

 

 

It looks good from what the pictures show but I have been unable to find an example of a Johnny Smith with the pots on the body top or the same tail piece. The pics I've seen on the web have the knobs on the pick guard. I have a 1969 ES-335 and a 2004 CS-336 and have owned lots of Gibsons over the years including 6 LP's, a Firebird, Explorer, Johnny A, etc. but I have no experience with Gibson jazz guitars. The S/N indicates 2005 and it's a Gibson USA model. The head stock and inlays look like a Johnny Smith, Le Grand and Super 400. I don't see the normal telltale signs of a fake but I wanted to see if anyone knows what it is before I drive 120 miles to check it out. There is no pic of a sticker inside the f-hole which would indicate the model. Any advice/knowledge would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks,

JO'C

 

[jdgm]

I'm a bit doubful about this one: the body shape, board inlays and bound f-holes are right for a Johnny Smith but not the pickup which looks as if it has been added later.   All Johnny Smith models had the pickup(s) attached to the end of the neck or to the pickguard, and controls attached to the pickguard AFAIK.

Wrong TRC.  The tailpiece is more Byrdland than JS, the scratchplate is a bit big and slightly wrong shape...and I don't think those are the original tuners either.   There would be no point replacing the original high-end waffleback tuners with those.  Plus the headstock inlay diamond looks plasticky from the pic.

I don't think this is a 2005 JS as surely it would have been a Custom Shop job/limited run with a cs number...?

Not conclusive - experts needed - but very dubious IMO.

Google for Gibson Johnny Smith images and you will see what I mean. 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by jdgm

[JO'C]

Thanks, I have some of the same concerns. I wish there was a pic of the sticker in the f-hole. The tuners look exactly like my 2004 CS-336 gold tuners. There appear to be nibs over the fret ends and the TRC has only 2 screws so the typical telltale fake signs aren't there. I'm intrigued what it might be. Might have to go see it in person.

[jdgm]

The other thing is the fretboard which looks like rosewood, not ebony.

In fact it looks more like the Ibanez JS copy model the more I look at it!

[JO'C]

27 minutes ago, jdgm said:

The other thing is the fretboard which looks like rosewood, not ebony.

In fact it looks more like the Ibanez JS copy model the more I look at it!

I agree it looks like rosewood. 

[JO'C]

25 minutes ago, Farnsbarns said:

The split diamond looks way off. 

Also, googling the serial suggests it's been used on several fakes. 

Thanks Farnsbarns. I think you got it. The fake S/N I remember seeing the most is the one that stars with 017… but this one shows up also. I didn’t think to Google the number. 

[Dave F]

Well, if you need to replace the tailpiece, they're easy to find

Guitar Tailpiece Trapeze for 6 String Archtop Jazz Hollow Body Guitar Parts Gold | eBay

[Rabs]

You see the way that the tuners are at an angle that goes with the curve of the side of the headstock..  Gibson dont to that. They are usually in line.

[Dave F]

4 minutes ago, Rabs said:

You see the way that the tuners are at an angle that goes with the curve of the side of the headstock..  Gibson dont to that. They are usually in line.

Plus, way too much real estate above the tuners

[JO'C]

15 hours ago, ghost_of_fl said:

I'm thinking a scenario that makes sense is that the neck is a neck from johnny smith and literally the entire rest of the guitar is not.  Maybe they built it to look as close as possible with the neck as the starting piece.  Photo of the back and hopefully where the neck meets the body? 

So it's clear that this is not legit but just for completeness here are that back and neck joint pics:

 

 

[JO'C]

12 hours ago, Rabs said:

You see the way that the tuners are at an angle that goes with the curve of the side of the headstock..  Gibson dont to that. They are usually in line.

Your are right Rabs. I hadn't noticed the tuner alignment but I pulled up a pic of my Johnny A:

 

 

[JO'C]

Thanks everyone for your help with my detective work. As usual forum members have been very helpful in a timely manner just like many other questions I've asked over the last 11 years. There are other items in the estate sale that I'm interested in so I'll probably go up and have a look/see. And I'll let the sellers know they are trying to sell a counterfeit. It won't be until later in the month but once I visit I'll jump back on to end the story.

[Murph]

35 minutes ago, JO'C said:

 It won't be until later in the month but once I visit I'll jump back on to end the story.

 

Please do.

[jdgm]

1 hour ago, JO'C said:

 

Looking at the heel I now think -  definitely NOT a Gibson.  However there is no overhang where the neck goes over the body, which is a JS construction feature.  Notice there are 2 tiny screw holes there, which is where the original pickup was fastened.  So it probably started life as a JS copy IMO.

Edited January 5, 2023 by jdgm

[Whitefang]

Except for the split diamond on the head stock and the tailpiece it looks more like a 350.  Most Johnny Smith images I find look like;

                                                                                                                                    

With no dials on the body notice.  And the 350 images I find are like;

                                                                                                                                         

 

Apparently the OPs guitar has been modified.  From what I'm not sure.

Whitefang

 

[JO'C]

Update - someone, not me must have told the seller that the guitar was not a Gibson Johnny Smith. They took the lot off the board (it was up to $1400) and put it up again as a "Replica Gibson Archtop guitar closely resembling Johnny Smith model" with an opening bid of $10. Burst my bubble. I wanted to out it as a fake but I felt I had to see it person to do so.  I still plan to check it out at the preview, if only to take some pics and see what it really is. If the tuners are real it's worth 10 bucks.

[Sgt. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, JO'C said:

Update - someone, not me must have told the seller that the guitar was not a Gibson Johnny Smith. They took the lot off the board (it was up to $1400) and put it up again as a "Replica Gibson Archtop guitar closely resembling Johnny Smith model" with an opening bid of $10. Burst my bubble. I wanted to out it as a fake but I felt I had to see it person to do so.  I still plan to check it out at the preview, if only to take some pics and see what it really is. If the tuners are real it's worth 10 bucks.

I’d buy it for $10 just to hang on the wall as art.

[Rabs]

12 minutes ago, JO'C said:

Update - someone, not me must have told the seller that the guitar was not a Gibson Johnny Smith. They took the lot off the board (it was up to $1400) and put it up again as a "Replica Gibson Archtop guitar closely resembling Johnny Smith model" with an opening bid of $10. Burst my bubble. I wanted to out it as a fake but I felt I had to see it person to do so.  I still plan to check it out at the preview, if only to take some pics and see what it really is. If the tuners are real it's worth 10 bucks.

Because it says Gibson on the headstock with the Gibson logo, that is actually illegal to sell...