Realizing that even 'A Grade' stuff can be junk (Fender content)

[ksdaddy]

I don't do a lot with amps. In my house, amps fall into two categories. One, they're worth more to someone else than they ever will be to me, so they get sold (which is why I no longer own a B-15 or a JC120) or they are good amps that aren't worth anything so they stick around and I actually USE them (which is why I have two Peavey Bandits and a Classic VTX). 

I will flip an amp if I see my chance, but I avoid it mostly because of shipping. Many times it's cleaning the pots on a POS Behringer and trying to sell it locally on Facebook Marketplace. In that sense, I've seen a lot of junk. Just plain cheap plastic crap, poor grade compressed beaver poop cabinets, screws that strip, etc. 

Recently I picked up a 1990-92 Fender Super 210. Made in USA, tube, something that I would have considered to be high grade stuff. I grew up with the notion that Fender amps were the Gold Standard and if you varied from Fender it was because you had a particular (and in my mind, peculiar) alliance to the tone of something "other". This attitude was borne from growing up in the 60s and having names like "Twin" and "Bandmaster" spoken at the supper table a lot.

In my defense, I did preface this with the statement that I don't do much with amps.

This amp is cheap crap. 

Cheap, tiny little pots that I'd expect to see in a Gorilla amp from the 80s, plastic jacks that break, just..... NOT what I would have expected from a USA Fender. It has some problems so I'm parting it out anyway. It's likely worth more dead than alive. I don't even want to think about what they've done since the 90s.

I live in a bubble I guess. It was like going back to a favorite restaurant after many years and seeing they now use paper plates.

[Dub-T-123]

Plastic jacks aren’t inherently bad. In an amp they are likely chosen to avoid ground loops rather than as a cost cutting measure. The pots were probably selected for PCB mounted usage which I’m not really a fan of but that’s what you’re gonna get in a modern amp 

 

you will never see Fender make a truly accurate reissue of one of their old classic amps for legal reasons. Those designs don’t meet modern UL regulations etc

[OrdinaryNimda]

It's probably only the sound most of us are after, not some half-bred semi-old junk, needing 100s of $$$ to fix up. So this means ToneMaster is the way to go for Fender amps? 🧐

[sparquelito]

I was in a local shop last year (a Guitar Center), picking up some cables and a strap.

The salesman pointed me to a nice new Fender American Professional II Stratocaster that was on display.
It was pretty.

I plugged it in, admired the feel of the neck, and played it.
Very nice.
Classic Strat sounds and tones.
Sixteen hundred bones.

I then visited the used guitar wall, and found a really pretty mid-2000's Fender Showmaster.
Three single coils.
Made in Japan or Korea, I cannot recall.
I plugged it in, also admired the feel of the neck and played it.
Unbelievable.
Tones and chimes and sounds like I had never heard.
Head and shoulders above the brand new American guitar.
$270.

I went back to the salesman, and said, "Take my money."

He replied, "The body has a hairline crack, I need to make sure you sawr that."
The Showmaster did indeed have a crack in the body, running from the base of the body near the bottom strap button, along the wood grain, up toward the bridge.
It was a fine, almost invisible hairline crack.

I said, "I don't care. This thing sounds fantastic."

The guy took the guitar behind the counter, and advised, "It's on a hold for another two days, to clear our used guitar wait policy. Can you pay a deposit now to hold it, and come back and get it Thursday?"

The store has a policy that, whenever somebody comes in a sells them a used guitar, they have to wait a few days to turn it around, in case the guitar was stolen or inappropriately acquired.
 
I don't remember the situation.
I had already paid for the cables and stuff, and was short on time.
I knew that ringing up the Showmaster was going to add 10 or 15 minutes to my timeline.

I said, "Eh, I really have to run. I'll show up on Thursday the minute you open, and I will buy it then."

The guy shrugged, and put the guitar back on the wall.

Sure enough, that Thursday I got held up at work, and couldn't make it back to the GC until 4:00 pm that afternoon.
Sure enough, the guitar had been sold earlier that day.

The moral of the story is not that my impatience often comes back to bite me.
Or that I am a dumb-*** (which I am), and that life is hard, but harder when you are stupid.  (Thanks, John Wayne.)

It's that the value of musical gear does not always correlate to the number on the price tag.
Or even the reputation of the brand and model.

How does it look, feel, and sound to you and me?
That's the measure of the goodness right there.

😐




 

[Murph]

I have a 96/97 Fender Prosonic 2:10 combo (Fender Custom Shop Celestions) that was designed by Bruce Zinky. I swapped a Marshall JCM 900 half stack for it back around 2000 probably. It's a very cool amp with a real clean channel, and a dual cascading gain dirty channel. A ton of tubes with tube rectifier or switchable to ss rectifier, and Class a or A/B switchable it goes from 30 watts (class A tube rectifier) to 60 watts (class A/B ss rectifier).

Zinky left Fender after the Tone Master/Dual professional and Prosonic projects because of $ and his designs were expensive as well. I still see the Prosonics on Reverb from 1K all the way up to 3K all the time, and believe it to be one of their best amps, but I know nothing about pots and the quality of the parts involved.

 

[rct]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

I have a 96/97 Fender Prosonic 2:10 combo (Fender Custom Shop Celestions) that was designed by Bruce Zinky. I swapped a Marshall JCM 900 half stack for it back around 2000 probably. It's a very cool amp with a real clean channel, and a dual cascading gain dirty channel. A ton of tubes with tube rectifier or switchable to ss rectifier, and Class a or A/B switchable it goes from 30 watts (class A tube rectifier) to 60 watts (class A/B ss rectifier).

Zinky left Fender after the Tone Master/Dual professional and Prosonic projects because of $ and his designs were expensive as well. I still see the Prosonics on Reverb from 1K all the way up to 3K all the time, and believe it to be one of their best amps, but I know nothing about pots and the quality of the parts involved.

 

Indeed.  I used mine a long time and should never have let it go.

If the letters OR are in the serial number, slide the chassis out.  Good chance yours is an actual Zinky like mine was.

rct

[Dub-T-123]

10 hours ago, OrdinaryNimda said:

It's probably only the sound most of us are after, not some half-bred semi-old junk, needing 100s of $$$ to fix up. So this means ToneMaster is the way to go for Fender amps? 🧐

By that logic I’d say DSP would be the top choice. 
 

The tone master isn’t exactly cheap for what you’re getting. The Twin Reverb model is over $1K

 

I’ll stick with my $600 used 65ri thanks!! Haven’t needed to put a penny into maintenance and I can’t imagine the construction or components are any better on a newer cheaper product 

[Larsongs]

My wife thinks I’m a hoarder & I probably am.. Stories like this Thread is probably the reason why.. I’ve got great older Gear & am happy with it.. Tonemasters & the other SS Amps are of absolutely “0” interest or use to me….

They still have that shrill Sound to my ears… Especially at higher volume.. Wait til something goes wrong with one of them! Good luck getting them repaired…

[kidblast]

On 3/18/2023 at 1:49 PM, Dub-T-123 said:

By that logic I’d say DSP would be the top choice. 
 

The tone master isn’t exactly cheap for what you’re getting. The Twin Reverb model is over $1K

 

I’ll stick with my $600 used 65ri thanks!! Haven’t needed to put a penny into maintenance and I can’t imagine the construction or components are any better on a newer cheaper product 

Tone Masters sound impressive,  they are very light weight, and the power attenuator feature is excellent.

Mine sounds really (REALLY) Close to my sons 65RI when we put them side by side.

and If I had the Tube combo, I'd not replace it with this.  but this one does a good job "faking" it.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by kidblast

[Larsongs]

I’ve tried most all Fender, Vox & Marshall SS Modelling Amps over the years.. I’ve also, used the Modelling Plugins in Pro Tools & Logic which are, IMO, even better than most, if not all,  Modelling Amps.. They are easier to haul around, if you use a Laptop Computer with Plugins it’s really small, light & compact. You can throw it in a Backpack.. They do offer several simulated Amps in a box, they’re less expensive etc.. They all can sound pretty good at low volume.. It’s when you push them that I start cringing from their sound..

For many people good enough is, good enough.. I get that. But, after years as a Musician/Mixing Engr. I prefer the Sound of good Tube Amps.. 

If I were to go the Modeling route it would be with a Laptop using Logic Pro X Amp Modeling Plugins.. They sound the best IMO & carrying a Laptop is the easiest of all… Just plug it in to your Board or PA…

[Larsongs]

3 minutes ago, ghost_of_fl said:

I have known people who prefer those gold plated "Monster" brand audio cables because those sound best.  But then someone did a blind test with a bunch of audiophiles.  The made a rig where they could switch between the Monster cables and literal wire coat hangers.   A lot of them preferred the sound of the coat hangers. 🤭. 

I would love to see the same blind test with tube amps vs Tonemaster amps.   

Just go to a Music Store with an Amp room & do your own A/B.. Very simple.. Sound is Subjective.. One person may love Digital another may not. What works for you won’t necessarily work for someone else.. Who’s right? Neither… Both…

There are quite a few Comparisons on YouTube.. Athough, they are usually slanted in favor of which type of Amp they are pitching… 

Some people like the Sound of Cigar Box Guitars others like an SJ200… Who’s right? Neither… Both… It’s Subjective… 

I use Monster Cables because they last a long time… They’re supposed to have a Lifetime Warranty but I’ve never had to use it… Coat Hangers I use to hang up clothes…

[Larsongs]

1 hour ago, ghost_of_fl said:

I don't think you could do a blind test in a music store unless those employees are very understanding.   Yeah you can guarantee if those audiophiles were looking at the Monster cables, they would choose them every time.  Interesting how a sock over their head changes their perception.  

Most decent size Music Store have an Amp room.. If you tell them you are in the market for an alm but want to try them out you can take the Amps in the Room & try them out.. I'Ve been able to do that in Music stores for the past 40 years!! It's nothing new.. From Washinton D.C. to L.A.

you have my blessing to use Coat Hangers... LOL! I'll pass on the Sock over my hear thing.... LOL!!

[Dub-T-123]

One thing about DSP that people struggle with in a DAW situation is gain staging. Let’s say your initial signal is hitting the AD converter too hard and causing it to clip. It’s not going to sound pleasant like amp distortion and it’s only made uglier by additional distortion from the plugin/DSP. Too much gain at the front end

In the tape days it was cool to push the meters into the red. In the digital world you need to understand the headroom of your system and stay below that threshold. 

as far as cables go there are a lot of gimmicks but your really aren’t going to get better than a good Mogami. 
 

 

[Larsongs]

5 hours ago, Dub-T-123 said:

One thing about DSP that people struggle with in a DAW situation is gain staging. Let’s say your initial signal is hitting the AD converter too hard and causing it to clip. It’s not going to sound pleasant like amp distortion and it’s only made uglier by additional distortion from the plugin/DSP. Too much gain at the front end

In the tape days it was cool to push the meters into the red. In the digital world you need to understand the headroom of your system and stay below that threshold. 

as far as cables go there are a lot of gimmicks but your really aren’t going to get better than a good Mogami. 
 

 

All I can say is Logic Amp Plugins are well thought out.. You dial them in like you’d dial in an Amp.. They offer unbelievable combinations of Amps, Speaker Cabs & a variety of Mics for the Speaker Cabs ranging from an SM-57 to A Neumann U-87..

IMO, They sound the best of any Digital Amps I’ve played or heard.. Including the Tonemaster.. Then there is the Pedalboard! Which is equally as well thought out & does a really great job modeling all your favorite Pedals.. You dial them in like you would on your Pedalboard..

I would create a Project.. With however many Tracks I’d want for each Amp I plan to use for a Performance.. A Fender on one, Vox on another, Marshall on another & so on.. I’d dial in the Amps, Speaker Cabs & Mic plus the Pedalboard…. As many as you Tracks as you want with every combination you want to use.. Select which Channel you want.. Mute the others.. All in a Laptop.. Throw it in a Gigbag, grab your Guitar & go!

I’m actually curious to try that on some Acoustic Gigs…

Mogami’s are about the same as Monster.. I’ve used both for years with equal success… Neither is better or worse in my experience.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Larsongs

[Larsongs]

1 hour ago, ghost_of_fl said:

Blind test.  Meaning you can't know which amp you're playing through.  Even if you know which one is on the left and which is on the right, it wouldn't be a blind test.  You'd have to have someone else put them behind a barrier or something (so you don't even know which amp is on which side) and have an A/B box. 

"Yes sir, go ahead and set up some barriers in here.......".  Perhaps not.  Although the way they understaff those stores you could probably pull it off like a flash mob.  

I’ve done it many times with headphones & my eyes closed.. In the Studio.. Very low volume levels it’s hard to tell.. High level Volume levels for Rock it becomes pretty apparent.. At least to me. There’s something harsh & shrill going on in the Sound that detracts.. 

That said, I know 2 guys that can make any Guitar with any Amp sound good.. They can usually even make Modeling Amps sound good.. But, the other guys, who are excellent musicians, I know can’t.. 

I have put a Tube Pre Amp in line between a Guitar & a Modeling Amp which helped make the Sound better…

It’s ok for people to like Modeling Amps.. I’m just not one of them.. At least at this point.. 

[Larsongs]

1 hour ago, ghost_of_fl said:

.... Except that you set up the amps so headphones or not, you know which one you're selecting.  🤦‍♂️  Blind test, meaning you don't know which amp is which.  

I can walked into a Club & tell if a Guitarist is playing a Tube Amp or a Modeling Amp without seeing the Amp. 99% of the time I’m right.. 

I can listen to a Mix someone brings in.. I’ve never seen the Band.. I’ll ask, which Modeling Amp the Guitarist is using? Or, is that a Vox Amp? Or is that a Fender Amp? Or whatever? I’m usually right..

I’ve watched those Blind tests on You Tube… IMO, Every one of them is produced to slant the intention of the one they want to sound the best…  Most of them are done at low Volume.. Which they sound pretty good.. Then, if, they turn them up the Modeling Amps start to get harsher & more shrill to my ears..

If you want send me a  Clip of your Tonemaster & an identical Clip with a good Tube Amp.. I’ll do your Blind test… But, at equal high volume levels.. 

It’s really OK for people to like Tonemasters or other Modeling Amps or Plugins.. 

 

 

[Dub-T-123]

At no point have I been convinced by the tone master series but it would be cool if it were quite a bit cheaper 

[Larsongs]

1 hour ago, ghost_of_fl said:

So ... @Larsongs I saw a video that kind of changed my mind about the Tonemaster series, at least until I hear otherwise.  It was a demo of a Tonemaster next to the real classic amp it models.  There were differences but it was all manageable - sounded really good.  That is until someone stepped on a Fuzz pedal.  It was disasterous.  I don't think any amount of tweaking could fix it.  

To our Tonemaster users on the forum - did you ever try a fuzz pedal with it?   How did that go?  

 

That & playing at louder Gig levels with a Band is where they lose me.. Even just trying add Gain from those types of Amps at Gig levels isn’t as pleasing to the Ears as a good Tube Amp. 

[kidblast]

1 hour ago, ghost_of_fl said:

So ... @Larsongs I saw a video that kind of changed my mind about the Tonemaster series, at least until I hear otherwise.  It was a demo of a Tonemaster next to the real classic amp it models.  There were differences but it was all manageable - sounded really good.  That is until someone stepped on a Fuzz pedal.  It was disasterous.  I don't think any amount of tweaking could fix it.  

To our Tonemaster users on the forum - did you ever try a fuzz pedal with it?   How did that go?  

 

truth be told, I don't think I have never owned a fuzz pedal since maybe the 70s when everyone was jumping on the band wagon  I ddin't care for them then, I still don't now.

But overdrives?  yep and those seem to work just fine.