Action and other little issues on a new Gibson 50's J-45

[Vito89]

Hi everyone,

I purchased a new 1950's Gibson J-45. As soon as I opened it, it seemed perfect and wonderful in every way, apart from the excessively striped rosewood of the fretboard. Once I picked it up, however, I immediately noticed an action that was really too high (more than 8/64 at low E and more than 6/64 at high E) which made it really unplayable and therefore didn't even make me understand if I could I feel comfortable with its not-so-small neck. The sensation was to playing a very hard guitar; which is very strange for a J-45, which should be a very soft guitar (at least as far as I know).

Such a high action seemed very strange to me also because in the documents that arrived with the guitar, quality control wrote that the action on that guitar had been adjusted to 5/64 on the low E and 3/64 on the high E (maybe even too low). I thought the neck had moved during transport, but I checked that too and found it to be perfect. 

In the end I had to send it back. Maybe it would have been enough to lower the bridge saddle, but I was afraid that doing so might cause other problems and at that point I wouldn't be able to return it.

Also, playing single notes on the low E string produced a strange resonance from the guitar body. Would lowering the action have increased it? would it disappear? I'll never know.

What I would like to ask you is if any of you have had similar experiences purchasing this new guitar. Also because I would really like a Gibson J-45 and in the future I will definitely try to buy it again (perhaps the standard version which has a slightly thinner neck), so I would like to understand if I find myself in the same situation and how I should behave.

Thank you so much everyone!

[slimt]

You bought a 1950s J45.    1950s J45s had a  slightly larger neck than the straight run of the mill J45 standard.  
 

as for the strange resonance. Was it like a continuous tone? Or vibration ? or rattle? 
 

J45s are pretty nice , versatile guitars.  
 

 

[fortyearspickn]

Sorry to hear you had to send it back.  Sounds like it wasn't an 'in-store' purchases, and you didn't have the opportunity to inter-act with the seller's  'professional staff'.   They should have checked it out before re-opening it and sending to you.   They must get lots of returns if they just  receive sealed boxes from instrument makers, leave them sealed, and send them on to purchasers to do the actual  "Intake/Receiving Dock QA Inspection".     Did you measure the gap from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string? 

[kidblast]

IME it's been that new Gibson acoustics need a setup which must include correctly filing the nut slots as well as working on the saddle.

Just addressing the saddle and neck relief is not really enough. 

Gibson does not do much of anything in particular to the nut, and that makes an enormous difference.

My J200 was the same way.  It was not easy to play until I got it setup properly.  once that was done, it plays quite easily.

Strange Resonance sounds like something may have been vibrating.  was there a pick system in the guitar, sometimes the control dials can rattle, or perhaps one of the machine heads could have needed some slight tightening.   there's really dozens of things that could cause this

Edited December 5, 2023 by kidblast

[Larsongs]

1 minute ago, kidblast said:

IME it's been that new Gibson acoustics need a setup which must include correctly filing the nut slots as well as working on the saddle.

Just addressing the saddle and neck relief is not really enough. 

Gibson does not do much of anything in particular to the nut, and that makes an enormous difference.

My J200 was the same way.  It was not easy to play until I got it setup properly.  once that was done, it plays quite easily.

Strange Resonance sounds like something may have been vibrating.  was there a pick system in the guitar, sometimes the control dials can rattle, or perhaps one of the machine heads could have needed some slight tightening.   there's really dozens of things that could cause this

Right.. Almost every Guitar needs a Set up when new. Even if it’s been Set up. No 2 players like the same exact Set up. If you start high you can always adjust lower.. If a Guitar starts out low there’s nowhere to go..  Except to buying new Nut, Bridge or ?

Back in the old days it seems like Guitars were made for big Guys. Big Body, fat Necks, heavy Guage Strings, etc. I imagine that was what Gibson was  going for in the 50’s J-45’s & their other 50’s Series Guitars..

[jvi]

I think Gibson guitars come set up "high" cause thats where they sound best, humans like comfort so many of us want low easy action....and off we go....

[Vito89]

1 hour ago, slimt said:

You bought a 1950s J45.    1950s J45s had a  slightly larger neck than the straight run of the mill J45 standard.  
 

as for the strange resonance. Was it like a continuous tone? Or vibration ? or rattle? 
 

J45s are pretty nice , versatile guitars.  
 

 

I'd say vibration/rattle.

 

1 hour ago, fortyearspickn said:

Sorry to hear you had to send it back.  Sounds like it wasn't an 'in-store' purchases, and you didn't have the opportunity to inter-act with the seller's  'professional staff'.   They should have checked it out before re-opening it and sending to you.   They must get lots of returns if they just  receive sealed boxes from instrument makers, leave them sealed, and send them on to purchasers to do the actual  "Intake/Receiving Dock QA Inspection".     Did you measure the gap from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string? 

Exactly, it was an online purchase.
Yes, I measured the gap from the top of the fret to te bottom of the string at 12th fret.

 

49 minutes ago, kidblast said:

ME it's been that new Gibson acoustics need a setup which must include correctly filing the nut slots as well as working on the saddle.

Just addressing the saddle and neck relief is not really enough. 

Gibson does not do much of anything in particular to the nut, and that makes an enormous difference.

My J200 was the same way.  It was not easy to play until I got it setup properly.  once that was done, it plays quite easily.

Strange Resonance sounds like something may have been vibrating.  was there a pick system in the guitar, sometimes the control dials can rattle, or perhaps one of the machine heads could have needed some slight tightening.   there's really dozens of things that could cause this

Thanks for your point of view. Yes, maybe a setup would have solved everything but I didn't feel like risking it, but if they all come like this from the factory then maybe with the next one I'll be more confident and I'll go with a setup. The fact is, it's not easy to gauge whether you like an instrument if the setup is so disastrous. Overall the nut was adjusted very well!

 

45 minutes ago, Larsongs said:

Right.. Almost every Guitar needs a Set up when new. Even if it’s been Set up. No 2 players like the same exact Set up. If you start high you can always adjust lower.. If a Guitar starts out low there’s nowhere to go..  Except to buying new Nut, Bridge or ?

Back in the old days it seems like Guitars were made for big Guys. Big Body, fat Necks, heavy Guage Strings, etc. I imagine that was what Gibson was  going for in the 50’s J-45’s & their other 50’s Series Guitars..

Thank you for your reply. it is very useful to me.

 

37 minutes ago, jvi said:

I think Gibson guitars come set up "high" cause thats where they sound best, humans like comfort so many of us want low easy action....and off we go....

Well yes. this is also why I decided not to lower the action. I was afraid that if I did it the guitar wouldn't play anymore. But more than 8/64 high and low really seems like a lot to me... or not? Furthermore, I have had a Chinese acoustic guitar set with (even too) low action for 15 years and it sounds a lot the same, so... I expect at least the same from a Gibson. 

and then why in the specifications that come with the guitar do they write that they have set it with a super low action?

[slimt]

1 hour ago, jvi said:

I think Gibson guitars come set up "high" cause thats where they sound best, humans like comfort so many of us want low easy action....and off we go....

So true.  I see alot of acoustics where there set up like strats and teles.   Which is fine if there built that way 

[zombywoof]

Lawdy knows my wife and I have only purchased one new guitar.  That was her Martin D12-28 which we snagged about 7 years back.  Before we left the shop though, they told us to go over to the coffee roasters a block or two over and grab and cup and a muffin while they did a full setup on the guitar to get it where my wife likes them to be.  The setup was spot on and the coffee and muffin excellent.

As to the action, while Bozeman cannot know how each individual player likes an instrument setup, The action on this particular guitar though does sound like it was over the top.  My take on it is a 6/64" on the low E and 4/64" on the high E is in the normal range.   While the high action could have been due to something as simple as the ratio of the bridge to the saddle being off, it also could have the result of an improperly aligned neck. 

With regard to the "rattle" unless the source is a loose tuner, it can be difficult to figure out what is causing the distraction.  It could be anything from fret sprouting or not enough relief in the neck to a loose brace or inky truss rod.  In the end though, unless this particular J45 had really stood out in a crowd which would have made it worth your while to have it looked at by a good repair guy, sending it back would be a wise choice.

[Joe M]

I brought home the same model last week and it is perfect in every way possible. Didn't have to tweak it one bit. Maybe you just got a dud??

[Dave F]

25 minutes ago, Joe M said:

I brought home the same model last week and it is perfect in every way possible. Didn't have to tweak it one bit. Maybe you just got a dud??

Sometimes it's what the guitar has been subjected to since it left the factory such as setting in an uncontrolled warehouse for a while.

[egoidealmusic]

I've gotten two 50s J-45s delivered to me.  The first came from a shop in Arizona and I had to send it back because the tuning pegs were pulling forward.  Second was a replacement sent to me directly from Gibson.  Neither had action issues like this, so I think you just sadly got a stinker.  It happens, sadly, just like my first one with the tuning peg issue.  It sucks, but it happens.  Don't give up on the 50s J-45, though--the one I finally ended up with is absolutely amazing!

[62burst]

50 minutes ago, Dave F said:

Sometimes it's what the guitar has been subjected to since it left the factory such as setting in an uncontrolled warehouse for a while.

The same thought entered my mind as soon as Vito said. . . 

14 hours ago, Vito89 said:

Hi everyone,

I purchased a new 1950's Gibson J-45. As soon as I opened it, it seemed perfect and wonderful in every way, apart from the excessively striped rosewood of the fretboard. Once I picked it up, however, I immediately noticed . . . 

If the guitar experienced  some cold and/or dry conditions, say for example, a winter climate, a dehydrated guitar top can sink down, causing high action and maybe some fret buzz where the neck joins the body. Also- a careful luthier will wait at least a day or so for the guitar to stabilize in proper conditions before making any changes to the setup.

Would love to have seen a pic of that wonderfully striped rosewood board. 😎.

[Larsongs]

This is a good Video regarding Gibsons Factory Specs for Acoustic Guitars & a few helpful tips..

It would be great if Gibson has more of these covering more aspects for Acoustic Guitars. It would make for an excellent go to Thread for all of us who play Acoustic Guitars.

I hope this is helpful..

https://www.gibson.com/en-US/GibsonTV/gibsons-guide-to-guitar-setup-and-maintenance/how-to-adjust-the-action-on-your-acoustic-guitar

Edited December 6, 2023 by Larsongs

[Jinder]

I wish Gibson could get on top of this stuff. That’s unreasonably/unusably high action for a new guitar. Not a single player I know would actually pick up a guitar with an action of 8/64 and 6/64 (3.2mm and 2.4mm for those of us on this side of the pond) and say “let’s go!”.

Even 6/64 on the bottom E at the 12th is too much for some people, and is considered a medium/high action in Lutherie terms. 
 

It’s not hard to put a basic factory setup with a playable action on a guitar just prior to the QC stage of manufacturing, takes about 10 mins per instrument. Given that Gibson are charging a premium for something that is considered a high end instrument, shipping a guitar with an unplayable action is totally unacceptable. 
 

That odd low E is something I heard a few years ago on a 2014 “Brown Top” J45 which had a gigantic neck. Sort of a booming, vibrating wolf note at the low E. Made the guitar quite unbalanced and odd to play.

 

[Vito89]

14 hours ago, zombywoof said:

Lawdy knows my wife and I have only purchased one new guitar.  That was her Martin D12-28 which we snagged about 7 years back.  Before we left the shop though, they told us to go over to the coffee roasters a block or two over and grab and cup and a muffin while they did a full setup on the guitar to get it where my wife likes them to be.  The setup was spot on and the coffee and muffin excellent.

As to the action, while Bozeman cannot know how each individual player likes an instrument setup, The action on this particular guitar though does sound like it was over the top.  My take on it is a 6/64" on the low E and 4/64" on the high E is in the normal range.   While the high action could have been due to something as simple as the ratio of the bridge to the saddle being off, it also could have the result of an improperly aligned neck. 

With regard to the "rattle" unless the source is a loose tuner, it can be difficult to figure out what is causing the distraction.  It could be anything from fret sprouting or not enough relief in the neck to a loose brace or inky truss rod.  In the end though, unless this particular J45 had really stood out in a crowd which would have made it worth your while to have it looked at by a good repair guy, sending it back would be a wise choice.

Thank you for your contribution 🙂

10 hours ago, Joe M said:

I brought home the same model last week and it is perfect in every way possible. Didn't have to tweak it one bit. Maybe you just got a dud??

yes, probably 😅

 

10 hours ago, Dave F said:

Sometimes it's what the guitar has been subjected to since it left the factory such as setting in an uncontrolled warehouse for a while.

Well, it could be, but the truss rod seemed to be adjusted well.

 

9 hours ago, egoidealmusic said:

I've gotten two 50s J-45s delivered to me.  The first came from a shop in Arizona and I had to send it back because the tuning pegs were pulling forward.  Second was a replacement sent to me directly from Gibson.  Neither had action issues like this, so I think you just sadly got a stinker.  It happens, sadly, just like my first one with the tuning peg issue.  It sucks, but it happens.  Don't give up on the 50s J-45, though--the one I finally ended up with is absolutely amazing!

Thank you for the advice. This inspires a lot of confidence in me. The perfect thing would be to find both the 50's and the Standard (with a right setup) in a shop and choose the one I like best. Unfortunately in Italy it is very difficult to find this situation 😅

9 hours ago, 62burst said:

If the guitar experienced  some cold and/or dry conditions, say for example, a winter climate, a dehydrated guitar top can sink down, causing high action and maybe some fret buzz where the neck joins the body. Also- a careful luthier will wait at least a day or so for the guitar to stabilize in proper conditions before making any changes to the setup.

Would love to have seen a pic of that wonderfully striped rosewood board. 😎.

I hadn't thought about this. But I can tell you that I waited 4-5 days before sending it back and the situation hasn't changed at all since it arrived.
And ****, unfortunately I didn't take any photos. I'm sorry 😭

3 hours ago, Larsongs said:

This is a good Video regarding Gibsons Factory Specs for Acoustic Guitars & a few helpful tips..

It would be great if Gibson has more of these covering more aspects for Acoustic Guitars. It would make for an excellent go to Thread for all of us who play Acoustic Guitars.

I hope this is helpful..

Thank you so much for this suggestion. I confess that the entire playlist made by Jim is among my favorites and I watch them several times. I watched this video on this occasion too just to make sure that what I saw was wrong with the guitar I received wasn't just in my head. And basically in this video Jim confirmed it for me.

1 hour ago, Jinder said:

I wish Gibson could get on top of this stuff. That’s unreasonably/unusably high action for a new guitar. Not a single player I know would actually pick up a guitar with an action of 8/64 and 6/64 (3.2mm and 2.4mm for those of us on this side of the pond) and say “let’s go!”.

Even 6/64 on the bottom E at the 12th is too much for some people, and is considered a medium/high action in Lutherie terms. 
 

It’s not hard to put a basic factory setup with a playable action on a guitar just prior to the QC stage of manufacturing, takes about 10 mins per instrument. Given that Gibson are charging a premium for something that is considered a high end instrument, shipping a guitar with an unplayable action is totally unacceptable. 
 

That odd low E is something I heard a few years ago on a 2014 “Brown Top” J45 which had a gigantic neck. Sort of a booming, vibrating wolf note at the low E. Made the guitar quite unbalanced and odd to play.

Thank you for your words. I thought I was the strange one who couldn't play such irrationally high actions 🤣

[rustystrings]

When I bought my 2005 J-45 Historic Collection new in 2007, the action was too high as well.  I wound up having to cut the nut slots significantly to get the action right - out of the box, when I fretted it, it went out of tune.  I also had to tweak the truss rod somewhat to get the relief nailed down just right, and did the same again about a decade ago when I switched to nickel wound strings.

On the other hand, it was ABSOLUTELY worth it.  For the first time in more than four decades I only own one guitar - because why would I play anything else? 

 

[Larsongs]

6 hours ago, Jinder said:

I wish Gibson could get on top of this stuff. That’s unreasonably/unusably high action for a new guitar. Not a single player I know would actually pick up a guitar with an action of 8/64 and 6/64 (3.2mm and 2.4mm for those of us on this side of the pond) and say “let’s go!”.

Even 6/64 on the bottom E at the 12th is too much for some people, and is considered a medium/high action in Lutherie terms. 
 

It’s not hard to put a basic factory setup with a playable action on a guitar just prior to the QC stage of manufacturing, takes about 10 mins per instrument. Given that Gibson are charging a premium for something that is considered a high end instrument, shipping a guitar with an unplayable action is totally unacceptable. 
 

That odd low E is something I heard a few years ago on a 2014 “Brown Top” J45 which had a gigantic neck. Sort of a booming, vibrating wolf note at the low E. Made the guitar quite unbalanced and odd to play.

 

The Video makes the point that factory sets the Action at 4/64 high E & 6/64 Low E. There are all kinds of Players. A guy who plays Slide will want higher Action than a Lead Player. A guy who plays Chords may want something else.. As mentioned you can always lower the Action as shown in the Video.. But if you start with really low Action you can’t unshave the Saddle or uncut a Nut.

The OP may have got a Dud in other respects but expecting a new Guitar to not need a Set up isn’t one of them.. I’ve bought quite a few over the years & rarely have I bought one that didn’t need a Set up. 

[Jinder]

20 hours ago, Larsongs said:

The Video makes the point that factory sets the Action at 4/64 high E & 6/64 Low E. There are all kinds of Players. A guy who plays Slide will want higher Action than a Lead Player. A guy who plays Chords may want something else.. As mentioned you can always lower the Action as shown in the Video.. But if you start with really low Action you can’t unshave the Saddle or uncut a Nut.

The OP may have got a Dud in other respects but expecting a new Guitar to not need a Set up isn’t one of them.. I’ve bought quite a few over the years & rarely have I bought one that didn’t need a Set up. 

The factory setup (which, as you said, is supposed to be 6/64 and 4/64, but wasn’t for the OP’s guitar) is the ballpark in which I set up all my guitars-it’s a sweet spot that works for me. I play a mixture of flatpicking, hybrid, strumming, fingerstyle, lead, slide, allsorts.  I absolutely agree that, as a setup guitars should be shipped with, it’s a starting point that will work for many players but allows wiggle room for those who like a lower action and wish for their guitar to be worked on to achieve that.
 

I appreciate that a new guitar will need a setup according to the preferences of the player, but 8/64 and 6/64 (more than, according to the OP) is really too high for anything other than slide or, depending on action at the nut, first position cowboy chords. That sort of action will send intonation out of whack anywhere north of the 5th fret. I can’t help but wonder if that guitar was put aside for online sales as it was unsuitable to be put up for an in-store demo. 
 

The end result is that the OP was shipped a guitar which was uncomfortable to play and didn’t sound very good. Weird resonance, hard to play. Obviously everyone likes to tweak things to their liking, but after dropping a couple of Gs on a guitar it should at least be somewhere near usable. 
 

Instruments seem to be the only commodity that can be sold from new in a state that’s bordering on unusable, with the end user being expected to sort them out. It’s very curious and something I’ve never really been able to get on terms with. I love my Gibsons and have always been/will always be a Gibson player, but can say objectively that Gibson acoustic guitars tend to be the most extreme examples of this.

[Larsongs]

3 hours ago, Jinder said:

The factory setup (which, as you said, is supposed to be 6/64 and 4/64, but wasn’t for the OP’s guitar) is the ballpark in which I set up all my guitars-it’s a sweet spot that works for me. I play a mixture of flatpicking, hybrid, strumming, fingerstyle, lead, slide, allsorts.  I absolutely agree that, as a setup guitars should be shipped with, it’s a starting point that will work for many players but allows wiggle room for those who like a lower action and wish for their guitar to be worked on to achieve that.
 

I appreciate that a new guitar will need a setup according to the preferences of the player, but 8/64 and 6/64 (more than, according to the OP) is really too high for anything other than slide or, depending on action at the nut, first position cowboy chords. That sort of action will send intonation out of whack anywhere north of the 5th fret. I can’t help but wonder if that guitar was put aside for online sales as it was unsuitable to be put up for an in-store demo. 
 

The end result is that the OP was shipped a guitar which was uncomfortable to play and didn’t sound very good. Weird resonance, hard to play. Obviously everyone likes to tweak things to their liking, but after dropping a couple of Gs on a guitar it should at least be somewhere near usable. 
 

Instruments seem to be the only commodity that can be sold from new in a state that’s bordering on unusable, with the end user being expected to sort them out. It’s very curious and something I’ve never really been able to get on terms with. I love my Gibsons and have always been/will always be a Gibson player, but can say objectively that Gibson acoustic guitars tend to be the most extreme examples of this.

It depends on who you buy from.. I’ve bought a few Guitars new online. Sweetwater being my main source.. They seem to get the best of the best. Maybe because they’re the biggest? I’ve had one bad Guitar from them. It was a Gibson Les Paul. A 7th hole had been mis-drilled for a Tuner & was puttied & re-finished poorly? I sent it back & they replaced it with a perfect Guitar.. I’ve also purchased a few more that were perfect. All only needed minor Set ups as they were pretty darn good out of the box.. All were brand new, in the wrapper. No floor Models that had been played. Which I like.. No knicks, dings, sctaches or missing parts.

Still, I’d rather see & try Guitars out in a Store but it’s not always possible. I live in Palm Springs, Ca. & getting to a big Store that has everything I’m interested in is in Hollywood.. Which is a 3 hour miserable traffic drive! I love going there but not the drive back & forth so I don’t make that trip as often as I’d like to..

The OP did right to send it back.. Hope he gets a perfect replacement..

[Dave F]

1 hour ago, Larsongs said:

It depends on who you buy from.. I’ve bought a few Guitars new online. Sweetwater being my main source.. They seem to get the best of the best. Maybe because they’re the biggest? I’ve had one bad Guitar from them. It was a Gibson Les Paul. A 7th hole had been mis-drilled for a Tuner & was puttied & re-finished poorly? . . .

But why did they send that one to you in the first place?

I had a similar issue with CME.  They made good on it, but why was it shipped to me in the first place?

[Larsongs]

4 hours ago, Dave F said:

But why did they send that one to you in the first place?

I had a similar issue with CME.  They made good on it, but why was it shipped to me in the first place?

Right.. In my case Gibson should never have shipped that Guitar to Sweetwater in the first place. I will admit the defect was hard to see.. The Gibson guys missed it or said it was good enough & the 55 Point inspection guys at Sweetwater only get X minutes to do their inspection & set ups. It’s an assembly line. It’s never going to be 100% perfect. Stuff happens!

Good yours turned out well..

[Dave F]

36 minutes ago, Larsongs said:

Right.. In my case Gibson should never have shipped that Guitar to Sweetwater in the first place. I will admit the defect was hard to see.. The Gibson guys missed it or said it was good enough & the 55 Point inspection guys at Sweetwater only get X minutes to do their inspection & set ups. It’s an assembly line. It’s never going to be 100% perfect. Stuff happens!

Good yours turned out well..

My issue was with a Nick Lucas 12 fret Mystic Rosewood. I first bought one from MF. When I received it the bridge plate was chewed up from being out of position and being drilled on the edge. I returned it. I then saw one at CME. I explained my problem I had and asked them to double check the one they had for that issue. They got back to me, assured me it was okay, and I bought it. It had the same issue. Then the salesman ( George Coutretsis, currently with Vintage SS) got involved and asked me if I wanted to return it or try to get it repaired at Gibson. I chose the latter, and they really took charge. It had the plate replaced and I couldn't be happier with it. I'm glad I worked with them.