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NeoConMan

By NeoConMan
in The Gibson Lounge

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KSG_Standard

KSG_Standard

Posted
Posted

 

KSG' date='

 

Thanks for the references. Why no source? It appears you got them from www.abort73.com-(or from a source that took them from this site) Abort73 is not exactly a balanced and neutral source in the debate. [/quote']

 

Bluemoon, the qoutes are referenced properly, if you doubt them, please elaborate on why you doubt them, or show where/why they are false or incorrect. The source of the quotes are there, page #, volume, edition, author, etc.

 

I have yet to see any real thoughts by you other than criticism of mine or Neo's posts. Do you have anything to add to these discussions, or do you believe your role to be that of editor-in-chief?

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KSG_Standard

KSG_Standard

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No' date=' I think calling the opposition to your point Murderers makes it a wedge issue. Specially when you bring it up in a discussion that's not about Abortion.

 

It's the extreme view of absolutely no Abortion, even in cases of rape and the Heath of the Mother that make it a wedge issue. The fact that you won't accept that making Criminals out of Women who have an Abortion does nothing but fill penitentiaries and does very little to curb the Abortions, makes it a wedge issue. The fact that you will not accept a position against Abortion without criminalization makes it a wedge issue. Can't you just say "I Don't Agree With You" without throwing the Big M word?

 

Criminalization has never stopped a problem, it just makes it criminal. [/quote']

 

 

My personal belief is that abortion is murder, and I have cited my reasons, and a logical argument as to why. You are free to disagree with me. I believe that Roe v. Wade was decided incorrectly, and I am not alone in this opinion. I believe that the federal government had no business deciding the way that it did in Roe v. Wade, prior to 1973, abortion was a state issue, decided by the courts and voters that were closest to the issue.

 

It seems to me that the extremists on the issue are the people that want on-demand abortion that even extends into the last trimester of pregnancy, and who will not even vote to compromise on any laws that prevent abortions.

If the "fetus" is human, and we know that it is, when do we protect it? Even the leaders of Planned Parenthood and the NOW admit that the fetus is a human life. What do you call the extermination of a human life?

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Homz

Homz

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My personal belief is that abortion is murder' date=' and I have cited my reasons, and a logical argument as to why. You are free to disagree with me. I believe that Roe v. Wade was decided incorrectly, and I am not alone in this opinion. I believe that the federal government had no business deciding the way that it did in Roe v. Wade, prior to 1973, abortion was a state issue, decided by the courts and voters that were closest to the issue.

 

It seems to me that the extremists on the issue are the people that want on-demand abortion that even extends into the last trimester of pregnancy, and who will not even vote to compromise on any laws that prevent abortions.

If the "fetus" is human,[b'] and we know that it is, when do we protect it? Even the leaders of Planned Parenthood and the NOW admit that the fetus is a human life. What do you call the extermination of a human life?[/b]

 

Had you started with your rant with that statement what could have been said to counter it. I have some issues with what I have highlighted, but mostly stuff I'd count up to personal opinion. Good boy. Here's a bone.

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Bluemoon

Bluemoon

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Bluemoon' date=' the qoutes are referenced properly, if you doubt them, please elaborate on why you doubt them, or show where/why they are false or incorrect. The source of the quotes are there, page #, volume, edition, author, etc.

 

I have yet to see any real thoughts by you other than criticism of mine or Neo's posts. Do you have anything to add to these discussions, or do you believe your role to be that of editor-in-chief? [/quote']

 

You can't "win" this debate with science. The two sides are never going to agree when "life" starts and when a fetus is considered viable. Ultimately, I would never force a woman to abort a fetus and I would never force a woman to carry an unwanted fetus to term. I do believe the Supreme Court has set a reasonable benchmark for when a abortion can and can't occur.

 

And cherry-picking quotes and stats to bolster you argument doesn't make your position more compelling. It just makes you more diligent than the rest of us.

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Homz

Homz

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Late term abortion is healthcare? Pulling a living' date=' recognizable human from the womb and killing him/her is healthcare? Wow! Me thinks that says alot about you Homz...=D> [/quote']

 

For the record.

 

This post was first blood. Not that I'm to proud just to go off on someone for no apparent reason. Just posting for the record. When everyone goes off about that mean homz.

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FirstMeasure

FirstMeasure

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My personal belief is that abortion is murder' date=' and I have cited my reasons, and a logical argument as to why. You are free to disagree with me. I believe that Roe v. Wade was decided incorrectly, and I am not alone in this opinion. I believe that the federal government had no business deciding the way that it did in Roe v. Wade, prior to 1973, abortion was a state issue, decided by the courts and voters that were closest to the issue.

 

It seems to me that the extremists on the issue are the people that want on-demand abortion that even extends into the last trimester of pregnancy, and who will not even vote to compromise on any laws that prevent abortions.

If the "fetus" is human, and we know that it is, when do we protect it? Even the leaders of Planned Parenthood and the NOW admit that the fetus is a human life. What do you call the extermination of a human life?[/quote']

Is execution of criminals in Death Row Murder? Is the abortion of a Rapist's Offspring in the Victims Womb Murder? As sad as it may be, I don't think that Rape Victim should have to endure 9 Months of Torment and Physiological Damage by taking that Rapists child to term, nor should that Rapist have the right to reproduce by such means.

 

As far as late term Abortions, I agree that should not be acceptable and Laws against it should make the Doctor the criminal, not the woman.

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Homz

Homz

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Is execution of criminals in Death Row Murder? Is the abortion of a Rapist's Offspring in the Victims Womb Murder? As sad as it may be' date=' I don't think that Rape Victim should have to endure 9 Months of Torment and Physiological Damage by taking that Rapists child to term, nor should that Rapist have the right to reproduce by such means.

 

[b']As far as late term Abortions, I agree that should not be acceptable and Laws against it should make the Doctor the criminal, not the woman. [/b]

 

As stated with the dweebs statement I have no problem with your post except with the highlighted part. On that I'll say you can not make a generalization about the "so called" late term abortion. There are many medical reasons this process may be considered. That decision is to be between the woman and her doctor who we presume has informed her medically of all the ramifications.

 

It's not just my opinion it's also the law.

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FirstMeasure

FirstMeasure

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As stated with the dweebs statement I have no problem with your post except with the highlighted part. On that I'll say you can not make a generalization about the "so called" late term abortion. There are many medical reasons this process may be considered. That decision is to be between the woman and her doctor who we presume has informed her medically of all the ramifications.

 

It's not just my opinion it's also the law.

Yeah, That's where the average ****** doesn't need to be meddling. And I am an Average ******, but it seems that by the last Three months, a woman has made up her mind, and a fetus can be taken as premature if the mother's life is in danger. But Taking the Medical Choices out of the Doctors control doesn't seem like a good idea, either.

 

Hey Neo - I didn't know you were an Anarchist, taking the law into your own hands like that is very Old School Punk. I didn't know you had it in you.

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Homz

Homz

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Yeah' date=' That's where the average ****** doesn't need to be meddling. And I am an Average ******, but it seems that by the last Three months, a woman has made up her mind, and a fetus can be taken as premature if the mother's life is in danger. But Taking the Medical Choices out of the Doctors control doesn't seem like a good idea, either.

 

Hey Neo - I didn't know you were an Anarchist, taking the law into your own hands like that is very Old School Punk. I didn't know you had it in you.[/quote']

 

Me thinks Neo has been very quiet on this issue. Hmmmmmmmm. Just saying. Curious.

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KSG_Standard

KSG_Standard

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Is execution of criminals in Death Row Murder? Is the abortion of a Rapist's Offspring in the Victims Womb Murder? As sad as it may be' date=' I don't think that Rape Victim should have to endure 9 Months of Torment and Physiological Damage by taking that Rapists child to term, nor should that Rapist have the right to reproduce by such means.

 

As far as late term Abortions, I agree that should not be acceptable and Laws against it should make the Doctor the criminal, not the woman. [/quote']

 

As I have stated repeatedly, I am against the death penalty. But I don't see how you can make any comparison between the state executing an adult, who has knowingly and willfully committed capital murder, with the taking of an unborn infant's life. The baby has NO say in the matter, and is completely at the mercy of the mother and the state.

 

How many of the 40 million + abortions that have been performed since 1973 have been to protect the life of the mother or to remove a rapist's baby? We can't know for sure, because those records are either not kept, or are not available to the public because of laws protecting the privacy of the mother and the doctor. Why should the baby be killed in the event of rape? Isn't the psychological damage already done to the mother by the rape itself?

 

I would venture to say that majority of abortions are performed at the request of a woman/girl that doesn't want to be pregnant or have a baby. Unless a rape occurred the woman and her partner had sex willingly, the outcome of sex without protection is usually pregnancy, the outcome of sex with protection can be pregnancy. Either way, it seems to me that baby has no say in the matter and that the pregnant woman had some control over whether or not to risk pregnancy.

 

Isn't one of the jobs of the federal gov't to protect people? Aren't all people entitled to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Why does the woman's right trump that of the innocent child? As for laws against late term abortion, so far all attempts to legislate against it have been overturned by the supreme court in 5-4 decisions. You can look up which side voted for or against.

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NeoConMan

NeoConMan

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Shoot the guy at church.

BRAVO!

 

That'll show those religious zealots!

 

Wait, what's the story on the guy who shot him?

Religious zealot maybe?

 

 

Women's Health Care Services clinic is one of just three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy, so they KNOW what they face in the public domain. Shot before, bombed, threatened daily.....

 

I've driven past there. In 1991 during their first big skirmish.

Remember it well, Operation Rescue people laying in the street to prevent cars pulling into the parking lot.

I would have put my truck in 4-Lo and floored it - stupid fxcks.

 

Had a spirited disagreement at the time with the wife of a friend, we saw this live in person and all over the TV.

She had two small children and could NEVER imagine aborting a fetus for ANY reason - EVER.

 

As men, 3 of us told her that it was not our decision to make so we wouldn't completely oppose it (Libertarian, eh?) and we feel the same way all these years later. I would have to say I'm Pro-Choice because as much as I hate it there are still instances..... at least I'm honest in my assessment and intellectual considerations.

 

 

Three years later, she left her beautiful kids at home with her husband and drove away.

Called later to say she wanted a divorce.

He kept the kids.

Jeez.

 

Morally I HATE abortion.

 

Okay, so the mother's health is in danger - who sez?

A doctor.

Oh, okay, so go get a doctor who will say whatever you want.

That was EASY!

And not very moral......

 

 

Anti-abortion group Operation Rescue issued a statement denouncing the shooting.

Operation Rescue makes PETA look sane.

Idiots.

An organization run by idiots, funded by idiots, supported by idiots, broadcast on TV by idiots for idiot's viewing pleasure.

 

I'm sure they'll send flowers.

 

"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," said Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."

 

Uh-huh....

Then they'll high-five and fist-bump each other while grinning ear to ear.

 

 

The phone line at the home of Tiller and wife, Jeanne, had a busy signal Sunday.

I'm guessing that's because Tiller is DEAD and his wife may be sorta busy.....

 

 

"Pre-natal testing without pre-natal choices is medical fraud," Tiller once said.

He was right on some level, but NOT to the lengths he took it.

 

 

 

Abortion opponents also questioned then-Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' ties to Tiller.

Tiller donated thousands of dollars to Sebelius over the years.

Sebelius is almost the same caliber as Obama and the rest of the morally void fxcks he rubs elbows with.

I say almost because her tax troubles are not shared by every Obama appointee, some were actually in good standing.

 

 

Yeah, THIS makes perfect sense.

STOP the killing by killing people...

 

 

 

EVERYBODY in this story is a fxcking idiot - without exception - including the media.

 

That's why I posted it.

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Homz

Homz

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As I have stated repeatedly' date=' I am against the death penalty. But I don't see how you can make any comparison between the state executing an adult, who has knowingly and willfully committed capital murder, with the taking of an unborn infant's life. The baby has NO say in the matter, and is completely at the mercy of the mother and the state.

 

How many of the 40 million + abortions that have been performed since 1973 have been to protect the life of the mother or to remove a rapist's baby? We can't know for sure, because those records are either not kept, or are not available to the public because of laws protecting the privacy of the mother and the doctor. Why should the baby be killed in the event of rape? Isn't the psychological damage already done to the mother by the rape itself?

 

I would venture to say that majority of abortions are performed at the request of a woman/girl that doesn't want to be pregnant or have a baby. Unless a rape occurred the woman and her partner had sex willingly, the outcome of sex without protection is usually pregnancy, the outcome of sex with protection can be pregnancy. Either way, it seems to me that baby has no say in the matter and that the pregnant woman had some control over whether or not to risk pregnancy.

 

Isn't one of the jobs of the federal gov't to protect people? Aren't all people entitled to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Why does the woman's right trump that of the innocent child? As for laws against late term abortion, so far all attempts to legislate against it have been overturned by the supreme court in 5-4 decisions. You can look up which side voted for or against.[/quote']

 

 

Your opinion is as valid as any, but just to play devils advocate are not you the one who frequently posts on getting the government out of your life. So now you want something so you think it the job of the feds to solve your problem. IN this case abortion. BTW what you say is a 5-4 vote is made from a 6-3 republican nominee court. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't Google it. Might even be 7-2 republican.

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Mr. Robot

Mr. Robot

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I am inclined to agree with you Neo. This is one of those no-one can win topics and it attracts too many zealots and head cases from either side of the argument.

 

People of any belief who think they have a right to gun someone else down just because they hold a different moral or religious view point are savages who should be dealt with as criminals, with no special leniency because it is motivated by their beliefs. That goes for pro-lifers and pro-abortionists.

 

I'd like to think that dealing with people like this with the full weight of the law is what makes us a civilised society.

 

I wonder how long it will take before the perpertrator claims that they have been depressed and on medication prior to the incident.

 

I watched a Law and Order last night where a female charged with murder claimed she did it because she went off her HRT. Its only TV, but I bet the argument has been run somewhere.

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Californiaman

Californiaman

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For the record.

 

This post was first blood. Not that I'm to proud just to go off on someone for no apparent reason. Just posting for the record. When everyone goes off about that mean homz.

 

'

 

Oh come on now, Homz ain't so bad.

We love him as much as we love KSG.

Everybody knows how passionate some people can be regarding the abortion issue. KSG is not only well read but really is passionate about it.

I remember some Op Rescue folks trying to recruit me during the mid 80s and it just wasn't my cup of tea. I couldn't get into all the civil disobedience while holding down a job and trying to have a life. I do remember praying in front of an abortion clinic (that's what we called them back then) one day with probably 100 people from all different walks of life. It wasn't for me though.

Randal Terry and his group did their own thing and many got arrested and spent time in jail.

My friend Chris was a part of this. He was arrested in Kansas, and sentenced to serious jail time. The inmates called him the reverend and he led many of them to Christ while he served his time.

I remember one day when a bunch of friends got together and started praying for him. We prayed for several hours that evening and the next morning we got a call saying he was going to be released from jail six months early! We were ecstatic.

God answered our prayers regarding Chris's early release.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

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KSG_Standard

KSG_Standard

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Your opinion is as valid as any' date=' but just to play devils advocate are not you the one who frequently posts on getting the government out of your life. So now you want something so you think it the job of the feds to solve your problem. IN this case abortion. BTW what you say is a 5-4 vote is made from a 6-3 republican nominee court. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't Google it. Might even be 7-2 republican.

 

[/quote']

 

If you consider the judges ideology based upon who appointed them, you might be correct. But who appointed the justice doesn't seem to be the determining factor in which way they lean. Remember, GW Bush appoint Souter, who has consistently voted to the left of center. Based on the supreme's rulings many/most people seem to agree with the following:

 

Chief Justice

John Roberts - conservative

Associate Justices

Samuel Alito - conservative

Stephen Breyer - liberal

Ruth Bader Ginsburg - liberal

Anthony Kennedy - swing voter

Antonin Scalia - conservative

David Hackett Souter - liberal

John Paul Stevens - liberal

Clarence Thomas - conservative

 

Since the Supreme's ruled on Roe v. Wade in 1973, the only way to change the law is with another ruling, or a constitutional amendment.

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