Californiaman Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 She's a very well spoken woman. Smart and beautiful. Not some bubble-headed bleached blond. It's funny how a certain element in American media is attacking her for her conservative beliefs. If Keith Oberman said what he said about Prejean and Palin about Michelle Obama, he'd be fired from MSNBC. But because she's a christian with conservative values, then she's fair game. There certainly is a double standard in the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruznolfart Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I wonder if it isn't more due to her being considered politically-incorrect as opposed to her being Christian, Todd. IMHO the political-correctness mind-set is far more pervasive than any anti-religion or anti-Christianity position. Any way you interpret it, the lesson is "don't speak your mind if it's not a popular (media standards) opinion" or you'll be sliced and diced on the altar of political correctness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 She is a Patriot. I don't agree with on some issues but she has my support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 Dennis, I would agree with you regarding the politicalley-incorrect. Being a Christian does have something to do with it too. Christians are supposed to speak the truth however uncomfortable or unpopular it may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I wonder if it isn't more due to her being considered politically-incorrect as opposed to her being Christian' date=' Todd. IMHO the political-correctness mind-set is far more pervasive than any anti-religion or anti-Christianity position. Any way you interpret it, the lesson is "don't speak your mind if it's not a popular (media standards) opinion" or you'll be sliced and diced on the altar of political correctness.[/quote'] I think it's two sides of the same coin. Her "political incorrect" response to the gay marriage question is based on her Christian beliefs...and you're only allowed "free speech" if it's the Government-Run Media's position on any subject. I'm old enough to remember Mario Savio in Berkeley who fought for free speech. Now, ESPECIALLY on college campuses you cannot say ANYTHING that isn't "approved"!! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Dennis' date=' I would agree with you regarding the politicalley-incorrect. Being a Christian does have something to do with it too. Christians are supposed to speak the truth however uncomfortable or unpopular it may be.[/quote'] As someone who is a believer I actually feel that many atheists are the persecuted nowadays, especially in the media and by politicians. I see the modern day atheist like the Christian once upon a time, afraid to admit his/her views in case of being jeered at by popular opinion and people taking the moral high ground. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I think some of us "older" guys have it... Regardless whether one's personal politics are "right" or "left," the machine is there to keep us in some space where one most certainly not say anything politically incorrect. Again, this has relevance to music - music is "speech" even if purely instrumental. We here have our own "beliefs" in terms of music, but are "tolerant" of the beliefs of others. How many "outside" are so intolerant of music they don't care for and may despise? A number of pickers here do stuff I really, really would not care to listen to on a regular basis. And I do stuff I'm sure many of those would consider as exciting as mashed potatoes and gravy. But we all share a "I'm gonna do my thing and get better on guitar and somehow do a better thing." That itself is, frankly, difficult for many to understand if they're not musicians. <grin> Yeah, "Shadow" doesn't want the battling of nasty argument on this forum, and our Mods enforce that. Yet notice the degree of freedom allowed by a forum of musicians who actually play, who actually listen, who actually care about the musical development of others in the forum... I'd add, though, that I don't think we've had, as a "world culture," the musical breakthroughs of the first two-thirds of the 20th century when one might have used politically incorrect speech with impunity. Might the two, speech and music, be even more entwined than many might consider? m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 I do stuff I'm sure many of those would consider as exciting as mashed potatoes and gravy. Now wait just a minute Milod. I take exception to that statement. Mashed potatoes and gravy is good! It's good for ya'. Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampa Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 If Prejean wasn'to much of a hypocrite, this would not have happened to her. Little Miss Ultra Christian Proper has dropped her suit against the pageant people because of this little video she made of herself when she was 17 that shows her "pleasing" herself. And she comes across as some sort of moral compass. All of her problems are of her own making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemoon Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 There's a video her "pleasing" herself. I need to study this video...as part of my religious studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 If Prejean wasn'to much of a hypocrite' date=' this would not have happened to her. Little Miss Ultra Christian Proper has dropped her suit against the pageant people because of this little video she made of herself when she was 17 that shows her "pleasing" herself. And she comes across as some sort of moral compass. All of her problems are of her own making.[/quote'] I think she'd respond to that by saying, she isn't perfect, just forgiven! That said, it was stupid that she made a video for her "then boyfriend"....but...which of us hasn't done totally stupid things? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 There's a video her "pleasing" herself. I need to study this video...as part of my religious studies. Hopefully it's better than when I used to do that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brundaddy Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I think some of us "older" guys have it... Regardless whether one's personal politics are "right" or "left' date='" the machine is there to keep us in some space where one most certainly not say anything politically incorrect. Again, this has relevance to music - music is "speech" even if purely instrumental. We here have our own "beliefs" in terms of music, but are "tolerant" of the beliefs of others. How many "outside" are so intolerant of music they don't care for and may despise? A number of pickers here do stuff I really, really would not care to listen to on a regular basis. And I do stuff I'm sure many of those would consider as exciting as mashed potatoes and gravy. But we all share a "I'm gonna do my thing and get better on guitar and somehow do a better thing." That itself is, frankly, difficult for many to understand if they're not musicians. <grin> Yeah, "Shadow" doesn't want the battling of nasty argument on this forum, and our Mods enforce that. Yet notice the degree of freedom allowed by a forum of musicians who actually play, who actually listen, who actually care about the musical development of others in the forum... I'd add, though, that I don't think we've had, as a "world culture," the musical breakthroughs of the first two-thirds of the 20th century when one might have used politically incorrect speech with impunity. Might the two, speech and music, be even more entwined than many might consider? m [/quote'] Granted, there is some correlation, but I think "the musical breakthroughs of the first two-thirds of the 20th century" was caused more by the unprecedented availability of recorded and sheet music than "using politically incorrect speech with impunity." Going back to 'the good ol days,' there was just as much of a culture war as there is today. The difference in the idea forum is that racism, sexism, and mindless xenophobia are now tackier than they used to be. I don't know the first damn thing about Prejean, but in our 21st C. American kulturkampf there are certainly cynical, veiled bigots who are dancing a similar dance to those of the 20th C. (nativism, jingoism, nazis, commies ... sound familiar?) and they make PC even more perverse than it was to begin with by using PC as rules of engagement. It's propaganda, through and through. Ah, I just saw a news blurb about her... so they're trying to sell sex for Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowdiddley Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 If Prejean wasn'to much of a hypocrite' date=' this would not have happened to her. Little Miss [b']Ultra Christian[/b] Proper has dropped her suit against the pageant people because of this little video she made of herself when she was 17 that shows her "pleasing" herself. And she comes across as some sort of moral compass. All of her problems are of her own making. Why the "ultra", just asking? I mean why didn't you just say christian, I certainly don't see her as ultra anything except ultra hot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampa Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Bow, the ultra is for the way she pushes it. She's not just a christian, she wants to advertise the fact and let us all know that she totally adheres to those beliefs. Oh, wait a sec, I guess she just talks the talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brundaddy Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 "Look around Goody, our progeny shall conquer this wilderness and practice hypocrisy and sexual shame here by the grace of God." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowdiddley Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Bow' date=' the ultra is for the way she pushes it. She's not just a christian, she wants to advertise the fact and let us all know that she totally adheres to those beliefs. Oh, wait a sec, I guess she just talks the talk[/quote'] You have to agee about the Ultra hot part though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 brun... Actually I don't much care one way or another on a personal basis about this young woman. But I do care about music and general freedom of speech. Yeah, I think we have far less freedom of speech than we used to have - and yes, I think we have far less functional freedom of musical creativity as well. Speech? We've always had bigotry in this world, but I think that our ability to laugh at stuff as seen through some of the varying aspects of ethnicity and regionalism, for example, have been lost to political correctness. So also - in terms of music and speech in lyric - I think we've lost the ability for the artist to point out aspects of life that may not be terribly correct without being subjected to a strong censure of "political correctness." I find it beyond belief that, except for right wingers who don't care what they say, some "rap" gets away with horrid, horrid speech supporting violence in general, total disrespect for others (especially women), and total disrespect for much of anything but the cash that may come to the "artist." And I find it beyond belief that left wingers who don't care what they say have torn down virtually every "patriotic" sort of music (and speech) that had been an American tradition - certainly including several verses of "The Star Spangled Banner." For example, much of WWII music is hidden away in vaults the young guys on this forum never will have access to. Ditto many cartoons of that era. Why? It's incredibly politically incorrect. We might poison the minds of youth were they to hear the tunes or see the cartoons. That's why I see speech and music as two sides of the same coin. As for decreasing creativity in terms of a musical "breakthrough," I think our current culture is stuck in a rut and political correctness is one aspect of what keeps the rut getting deeper. We have increasing outlets for our creativity thanks to the Internet and other "new media," but if it doesn't fit certain preconceived notions, it doesn't really fly. A stylistic breakthrough has to be something with an injection of some new way of approaching music that might be appreciated musically, artistically and culturally. The Beatles did it. So did Ellington and Basie and... I haven't seen anything similar in the past 40 years beyond short-lived fads. I personally hate to see much but the marketplace made decisions on speech rather than fear of organized political correctness and music simply rehashing previous notions with somewhat different instrumentation and special effects, but then... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 come on she's most famous for running her mouth about gay marriage, topless photos of her artificial chest the pageant paid for and she welched on repayment and then for a sex vid that was released. I don't know if she's ultra christian but she's not too smart. She ended up getting her 15 minutes of fame for masturbation her family must be so proud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 BRUN... Oops - after your pix... Consider this: The "puritans" had, as I've seen some stats, as high a percentage of brides going into marriage with a family already on the way as in any era. Bundling was part of the culture and aided in that above statistic. "Puritanical" is not necessarily something about sexuality or words but rather in setting a specific set of social norms that actually did not much care for hypocrisy - they simply had a norm that is rather different from that seen today. To be sure, there were competing norms three centuries ago that brought many immigrants to North America where they might operate by their own. "Sex," however, has been subjected to competing norms since the first major prose known to mankind today, the Gilgamesh epic. And frankly as I see it, a bit of hypocrisy ain't all that bad. It's a way of maintaining social norms necessary to a relatively orderly society while allowing personal variation due to personal inclination whether considered "good" or "bad" by the culture as a whole. The degree to which culture allows a degree of hypocrisy seems to give it a degree of elasticity without losing normative direction. The degree to which norms are tossed as being irrelevant or "for religious nuts or atheists" tends to bring a breakdown in cultural coherence. That latter has a side effect on music, as I see it. I also find it personally interesting how so many ex beatniks and hippies nowadays are those battling most in favor of some social norms they themselves flouted in their youth. <chortle> The parallel to that musically? Hey, how about Rod Stewart, Joan Baez and Linda Ronstadt doing 30s through 50s "standards?" Age doth bring together what had, in ways, been torn asunder in youth. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 i saw her on the today show this morning. she's a dope. great looking broad but dumb as a stump. i'd be surprised if she could even read the book she "wrote". what a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAS44 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 It bugs me how worked up some people get over political affiliation. So what if she's conservative, I'm not but I won't hold that against her. Does it really make her a bad person? (no) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brundaddy Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 brun... Actually I don't much care one way or another on a personal basis about this young woman. But I do care about music and general freedom of speech. Yeah' date=' I think we have far less freedom of speech than we used to have - and yes, I think we have far less functional freedom of musical creativity as well. Speech? We've always had bigotry in this world, but I think that our ability to laugh at stuff as seen through some of the varying aspects of ethnicity and regionalism, for example, have been lost to political correctness. [/quote'] I feel that we are as free as we ever were to say, play, or sing anything we like, but the standards for sounding like an a-hole while saying it have changed. I think what is on TV and in the papers is regulated (as it always has been) by private interests. I'm not sure I follow your distinction of "functional freedom of musical creativity," but I'm interested. So also - in terms of music and speech in lyric - I think we've lost the ability for the artist to point out aspects of life that may not be terribly correct without being subjected to a strong censure of "political correctness." I find it beyond belief that' date=' except for right wingers who don't care what they say, some "rap" gets away with horrid, horrid speech supporting violence in general, total disrespect for others (especially women), and total disrespect for much of anything but the cash that may come to the "artist."[/quote'] It's always been all about the bottom line. I wholly believe that if record companies could have gotten away with selling the coarse, explicit, hardcore outlaw image any sooner, they would have. Music has been steadily chipping away at social norms from one generation to the next. The blues was 'devil music,' jazz was 'devil music,' then rock and roll was 'devil music,' and then rap stole the show. And I find it beyond belief that left wingers who don't care what they say have torn down virtually every "patriotic" sort of music (and speech) that had been an American tradition - certainly including several verses of "The Star Spangled Banner." To be fair' date=' the right wingers added a few zingers too. Take 'In God We Trust' or adding 'Under God' to the Pledge of Allegiance, for example. For example' date=' much of WWII music is hidden away in vaults the young guys on this forum never will have access to. Ditto many cartoons of that era. Why? It's incredibly politically incorrect. We might poison the minds of youth were they to hear the tunes or see the cartoons.[/quote']From what I've seen, a lot of it is racist (and truthfully equally bad or even worse than Nazi propaganda cartoons), which should in no way cause it to be censored per se (and trust me, I believe in protecting unpopular speech), but for quite a while Uncle Sam went to great lengths (including locking up said material in vaults) to portray Hitler as the racist and the Allies as, well, far from anything Nazi as possible. Hell, you and I both know Hitler took more than a few pages out of the American playbook in his implementation of eugenics, sterilizations, etc. He was Time mag's Man of the Year before he became our enemy... hell of a cultural 180 don't you think? That's why I see speech and music as two sides of the same coin.As for decreasing creativity in terms of a musical "breakthrough' date='" I think our current culture is stuck in a rut and political correctness is one aspect of what keeps the rut getting deeper. We have increasing outlets for our creativity thanks to the Internet and other "new media," but if it doesn't fit certain preconceived notions, it doesn't really fly.[/quote'] Rap doesn't fit your preconceived notions, but sure has taken flight. Also you have to consider that the 'new media' are also profound inlets TO our creative impulses. A stylistic breakthrough has to be something with an injection of some new way of approaching music that might be appreciated musically' date=' artistically and culturally. The Beatles did it. So did Ellington and Basie and...I haven't seen anything similar in the past 40 years beyond short-lived fads. I personally hate to see much but the marketplace made decisions on speech rather than fear of organized political correctness and music simply rehashing previous notions with somewhat different instrumentation and special effects, but then... m [/quote'] I think a tremendous stylistic breakthrough that you're overlooking is rap/hip hop. Simply put, it's the Beatles of today. Pardon the metaphor, but it seems we're in the throes of Beatlemania. The web has flooded us with musical ideas. There is so much 'crossover' that innovation can sometimes be unrecognizable. Style boundaries have always been permeable, and the web has blurred them a hell of a lot. Who knows what's next? Sorry for the threadjack, fellas ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 There's a video her "pleasing" herself. I need to study this video...as part of my religious studies. How many 17-year old girls and boys have even come close to developing a sense of who they are in the world. Most can't even consieve a world view, let alone the intricacies of their own religious beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brundaddy Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 In light of this, should minors be tried as adults? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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