What don't you like about a Gibson...

[milod]

Well......... Here's my perspective as an old guy without bundles of cash.

 

I think Fender has it even worse. You buy an Epi, you get an Epi. Buy a Gibson, you get a Gibson.

 

Different animals, although both should have the same degree of basic quality control involved.

 

To me it's kinda like purebred horses as opposed to just range horses. Breeding counts for both, but you expect something from a registered quarter horse you don't from your friend's string of decent cow ponies.

 

In a way, if I won the lottery I'm still so #$%@#$ conservative that I'd be more likely to take an Epi copy out on the road or to gigs than a $4,000 or more Gibson simply because ... well, I'm conservative. Heck, I still have a "good" hat that's over 20 years old and I wear at most a half dozen times a year while mostly wearing "make good sense for the season" hats that cost less. I dunno. That's just me.

 

Gibson, though, you know what you're getting pretty much, at least compared to Fender. I've been listening a lot to Roy Buchanan again lately and got to thinking well... maybe a Tele clone. Good grief, the way the "Fender Squier" and "Fender" brands are made different ways, different places, different price tags for guitars that appear to be identical makes absolutely no sense to me - although I'm admittedly no Fender fan.

 

Somebody else made a great point, too - I think it was Charliebrown - that even today's "crap" guitars are so much better than stuff that was around when I was a teen and 20s picker that there's absolutely no comparison. Harmony and Kay made some interesting stuff under a dozen brand names each, but they were at best "workmanlike" - even their very high end stuff like a top end jazz model 50s Harmony I had that came with Grovers.

 

Honestly, I'd rather have two Epi 335 clones, an Epi Lucille clone and an Epi 175 clone than a real 335 if somebody gave me $2 grand and I hadda spend it on guitar stuff.

 

I dunno if Gibson still has a supercheapie sub-brand, but y'know, as long as it's just a sub-brand, I'm all for it if: 1) A buyer gets response if it's broken out of the box so the company maintains "quality" status and 2) it helps make some profit to help the company keep "real" Gibson manufacturing in the US.

 

If somebody gave me a 335 I'd still be 90 percent scared to play it "out." Ditto other semi and hollows. Don't seem much difference on solidbodies, myself, if you swap electronics and maybe some other hardware. But then, I'm not really a solidbody nut.

 

Darn it.

[Murph]

To most players of all ages have a hard time justifying to an Expenditure of over Two Grand on a Guitar. If your a young upstart with a Roommate' date=' Two Grand is 4 months rent. If your in your Thirties (late Twenties), you likely have to clear purchases with your family. Two Grand will pay for a lot of Diapers, Car payments, Whatever. Maybe by the time your in your late Thirties, Early Forties your average blue collar Joe may be able to justify a personal expenditure of over Two grand, but now you have to ask yourself, "Am I a Good Enough Living Room Rock Star to justify a Professional Quality Guitar[/quote']

 

Huh?

[ShredAstaire]

So....

 

Why clip the headstocks out of the avatar pic?

Fool people?

 

Hmmmmm.....????

 

Just sayin'.........

 

 

Hi, if i was trying to fool anyone, I wouldn't have that in my sig now would I?

 

Anyway, i'm not fighting with you - its pointless.

[FirstMeasure]

Huh?

 

 

I over explained the point I was trying to make. The cliff notes version would be, "It's hard for Blue Collar Joe to justify an Expenditure of over $2000. And if they're not making money with the Guitar why should they pay for a Professional Quality one?"

[pohatu771]

Well... this thread certainly didn't turn out the way I expected. I just wanted to point out how ugly I think the ES-135 headstock decorations are.

 

If I wanted an Epiphone vs. Gibson debate I would have... well, gone to any of the half-dozen threads that are active at any time between this and the Epiphone forum.

[NeoConMan]

I don't go to the Epi forum.

Well, unless I get tired of the Epi vs. Gibson sh!t here and go over there to return the favor...

 

:D/

 

 

 

Anyway' date=' i'm not fighting with you - its pointless.[/quote']

Aw, shucks.....

 

 

 

If I could afford a $40 million Gulfstream jet, I would still probably get an older Lear 35 instead.

Save 90% of the money.

3 mil on a jet, lotsa pocket change to fly it around.

 

Same reason I don't buy $7k Gibsons or Private Stock PRS's.

 

If I was never in a position with my wages to buy any nice guitars with cash, I wouldn't have.

My first new electric was bought when I was 28, so I played used, imported crap for 15 years.

 

I've had (and financed fully) three children, so I know where money HAS to go.

 

I've played one of my Les Pauls at a couple gigs, and my 335 at church once.

My double neck has seen only a single gig, as has my PRS.

The expensive stuff rarely leaves the house.

I usually take a Strat or two since I have them with a variety of pickups, and damage repairs would be easier.

 

I'm not a pro player, nor do I possess the skills to be called one.

Power Chord Ranger?

Yeah, that's me.

 

There's a huge variety of reasons to buy a guitar, many "logical" reasons to justify the choices.

I have what I need to get most any tone I'm interested in.

I have guitars that will retain their value as well as could be predicted in the coming years.

I have a collection that may prove to be worth a few bucks if I'm lucky.

I have a collection that is the envy of EVERY pro (and skilled) musician I know.

 

Not sure that's saying much - they would likely sell 'em and use the cash elsewhere.

 

I have a collection that makes me very happy.

I sold 30 guitars over the years because they didn't.

[FirstMeasure]

Neo - I'd put you in the "Collector that can afford it" category. Not the "Time Clock Joe" category.

[NeoConMan]

What about Power Chord Ranger?

 

[biggrin]/

 

 

Hey man, I punch a clock just like lotsa other Blue Collar Joes.

Decent wage, but I'm no Olde Money Business Tycoon.

 

I'm simply a tight-*** when it comes to spending money on other things.

This year has been tight for many reasons, first year in ten that I haven't bought a guitar.

 

Comfortable and new (but modest) home.

Twenty year old TV in my living room.

Old trucks with over 100,000 miles on them.

Clothes from Wal Mart and Goodwill.

 

I rarely splurge, even on guitars and guns.

[ShredAstaire]

Well... this thread certainly didn't turn out the way I expected. I just wanted to point out how ugly I think the ES-135 headstock decorations are.

 

If I wanted an Epiphone vs. Gibson debate I would have... well' date=' gone to any of the half-dozen threads that are active at any time between this and the Epiphone forum.[/quote']

 

I apologize for contributing to your thead going off the tracks pohatu771...i've deleted most of my posts that could be seen as negative. It was not my intention to hijack your thread. I'm sorry about that.

[FirstMeasure]

What about Power Chord Ranger?

 

:D/

 

Said With Affection

Hey man' date=' I punch a clock just like lotsa other Blue Collar Joes.

Decent wage, but I'm no Olde Money Business Tycoon.

 

I'm simply a tight-*** when it comes to spending money on other things.

This year has been tight for many reasons, first year in ten that I haven't bought a guitar.

 

Comfortable and new (but modest) home.

Twenty year old TV in my living room.

Old trucks with over 100,000 miles on them.

Clothes from Wal Mart and Goodwill.

 

I rarely splurge, even on guitars and guns.[/quote']

You must be aware that you make more than a lot of working class folks.

[charlie brown]

ONE ("pipe dream") thing, I DO wish Gibson would do, is to make their models,

with the original specs...long neck tenons, correct bevels (on SG's) etc., across

the board...with, what is now CS finish detailing! But...Not limit that, to "CS" versions.

Instead of having another complete line, like the "VOS" stuff...just do it "correctly" in the

first place.

 

Then...Make the CS a REAL custom shop, where you order the "special" guitar you want,

whether it's a custom color, inlays, neck profile (beyond what is offered conventionally),

or just "one of a kind"type stuff. Offer the regular line, at say the current (standard line)

pricing, and make the CS models, really unique!...and, priced accordingly, for those that

"need" that sort of thing. Maybe, they could do all that, IF they stopped making all these

limited editions, that few people seem to want? Make THOSE, in the CS, too! As I suppose

they are, anyway? ??? Just a thought. ;>)

 

CB

[tazzboy]

The price is biggest one.

[Jantha]

I over explained the point I was trying to make. The cliff notes version would be' date=' "It's hard for Blue Collar Joe to justify an Expenditure of over $2000. And if they're not making money with the Guitar why should they pay for a Professional Quality one?"[/quote']

 

I understood your original post.. and you are 100% correct in my opinion. My family has had to live on just my salary for the last 10 years... and although it's a *decent* salary... $2000 guitar purchases usually yielded to other things. Even if a little money is stashed away every month, it's still hard to justify using it on yourself.

 

If all a person can afford is a cheap Epi.. then at least they are interested playing and are doing the best with what they can...

[AXE®]

Lemurs.

[milod]

What I find interesting is that even among those of us with a cupla bucks in guitars, there's a tendency not to take the "good stuff" out on gigs. And that's figuring they're insured.

 

I dunno. I know it's kinda dumb to make 60-year-ago comparisons in some ways, but... I know a small town auto mechanic circa 1950 did well to get $1 an hour. Figure a 45 work week and it's a month's worth of paychecks to buy an ES175 at $175. The price tags today seem to run from a discounted low of around $3,700 up. Where I live the average household income is 30,000, so we're talking about 6 1/2 to eight weeks of paychecks to buy a 175.

 

Bottom line is that it appears the price of the American-made Gibson instrument has increased in real dollars by roughly 50 percent or possibly more. The Epi version makes pretty good sense at that sort of price point. Even figuring it's only literally 50 percent the quality, the price-value "ratio" you might invent still makes it a good player's instrument. And Epi is far more than 50 percent of a Gibson in quality. IMHO, if they were priced at percentage of Gibson quality, the price tag would be around 75 percent or greater of Gibson cost - and Gibson would need another marque to have a more practical price point.

 

In ways it likely was worse in the era when Gibson was owned by a washing machine company or whatever <grin> and the quality appeared to have dropped and some good Japanese-made guitars of Gibson specs were so good that there was a patent infringement lawsuit that Gibson won in spite of Ibanez, for one, clearly having their brand name on the headstock and inside the instrument. They sold for a lot less than the real thing and some would argue were as good an instrument as a "real" Gibson of the era. Thank heaven Gibson's "back" with real people running it. At least more or less. <grin>

 

(Interestingly today the Ibanez company today hollers about illegal clones of their instruments - although obviously illegally using the Ibanez trademark even as some of these turkeys use a Gibson trademark on shoddy illegal copies.)

 

Anyway...

 

I may be wrong, but I think Epi today is the best choice for somebody who really wants a Gibson type guitar but ain't got, or can't justify the cash. It's either that or a less similar instrument with a different brand name.

 

The SG is a great guitar and a great design, but let's face it, with a bolt-on neck, it's a carved board with a neck added. Maybe that's why there are some street prices under $1,000 on some real Gibsons. But now you've got business decisions mixed with good-playing workmanlike guitars and comparisons of "Do I want a somewhat stripped real Gibson SG or a reeeally pretty Epi copy of pretty much the same thing or... some other brand of board guitar?" I still think Gibson and Epi together are the best choices for the SG/clones and ditto the LP variations, although 35 years ago Guild made some awfully nice SG semi-clones.

 

Semis and hollow? Pretty much ditto Gibson and Epi although you've gotta admit that Ibanez ain't bad. A few other brands like Washburn seem way inconsistent in quality on their imports. If you wanna spend same or more than Gibson, there are some nice American-made semi-customs and customs. Me, I'm a 175 nut.

 

m

[NeoConMan]

Make the CS a REAL custom shop

Another anecdotal story to that effect;

 

When I ordered my double neck' date=' I sorta thought the same way.

Hey, they've moved EDS-1275 production to the "Custom Shop" so lets make a couple of minor changes.

I'm told I have an 8 month wait to get the thing, so I want it MY way.

 

My dealer asked what it would take to install Grover Rotomatic and mini Rotomatics at the factory.

Slight machining changes required, but if it's done in-house....

 

That, and swap the 490/498 pickups for two sets of 57 Classics.

How hard is [i']that[/i]?

 

They said it would delay production (?) and double the price of the guitar.

 

DOUBLE!?!

 

WTF?

 

How do they figure..... nevermind.

 

Okay, so I got the exact same EDS-1275 as everybody else from the "custom" shop.

Well, it just so happened to have a single piece body - that's one BIG slab of Mahogany!

 

All in all, I'm very happy with it.

That, and I certainly see the appeal of the Les Pauls that come outta there but still...

[MojoRedFoot]

To answer the original question....i hate the look of the zoot suit SG. Bleh! Sorry to all those here who own one, but I don't like it.

 

I also find it kinda lame that the word "Custom" is used so loosely with Gibson. Don't get me wrong, I will own an black LP Custom someday but it's not really a custom. Just a gorgeous LP.

[djroge1]

I don't like their prices.

[charlie brown]

Another anecdotal story to that effect;

 

When I ordered my double neck' date=' I sorta thought the same way.

Hey, they've moved EDS-1275 production to the "Custom Shop" so lets make a couple of minor changes.

I'm told I have an 8 month wait to get the thing, so I want it MY way.

 

My dealer asked what it would take to install Grover Rotomatic and mini Rotomatics at the factory.

Slight maching changes required, but if it's done in-house....

 

That, and swap the 490/498 pickups for two sets of 57 Classics.

How hard is [i']that[/i]?

 

They said it would delay production (?) and double the price of the guitar.

 

DOUBLE!?!

 

WTF?

 

How do they figure..... nevermind.

 

Okay, so I got the exact same EDS-1275 as everybody else from the "custom" shop.

Well, it just so happened to have a single piece body - that's one BIG slab of Mahogany!

 

All in all, I'm very happy with it.

That, and I certainly see the appeal of the Les Pauls that come outta there but still...

 

 

No Kidding?! Wow....Double?!! That's ridiculous...but, I guess it keeps them from having to

do anything "they" don't want to do, huh? ;>b Now, I'm half afraid to ask, what a factory

"Maestro" on a '61 SG, would run?! Amazing...

 

 

CB