J200 action adjustment

[gibson oz]

I have a 2007 J200 which I bought new -great guitar, but I would like to lower the action, which is a little high compared to my other acoustics, though from new the bridge nut is already cut very low and I can't see much more left to go down. Surely the neck wouldn't need a reset for such a new guitar ?? Any ideas guys?

[BigKahune]

Sounds like you're not sure what's going on. Take to a good shop/luthier for an evaluation.

[gibson oz]

I think that's where I'm heading BigKahune

[Mark Lee]

Theres a thing called the truss rod under the truss rod cover. give it a quarter turn clockwise with an allen key and se how much that helps. keep tinkering with it untill your action is to your likeing. Personally I like high action, around 1/8 inches. it makes already loud guitars (I also have a SJ-200, along with an Advanced Jumbo) even louder.

[ksdaddy]

Never mess with the truss rod unless you know it needs tweaking. It's to set neck relief and any changes in the action is secondary.

[Mark Lee]

Never mess with the truss rod unless you know it needs tweaking. It's to set neck relief and any changes in the action is secondary.

 

try telling that to Freddie Green. Besides, I'm sure there is a good reason they are called single or double ACTION truss rods.

[ajsc]

Take your guitar to a guitar tech.

[ksdaddy]

try telling that to Freddie Green. Besides' date=' I'm sure there is a good reason they are called single or double ACTION truss rods.[/quote']

 

They're called double ACTION truss rods because they can be adjusted to correct both forward bow and back bow, not to adjust action to anyone's liking. Their function is to control the relief in the neck, which can vary due to string gauge, temperature, humidity... and the recommended range of relief is quite narrow. typically around 0.012" measured at the 7th fret.

 

If the action is too high on his J200, then a good place to look is the truss rod relief, as that can have a drastic effect on string height but it should not be used just to correct high action. If the relief is somewhere near correct and the action is too high, then the problem lies elsewhere; a swelling top, too high a saddle, etc.

 

Just curious, what size allen key do you use to adjust the truss rod on your J200 and Advanced Jumbo? I know what I use to adjust mine.

[Buc McMaster]

T-rod adjustments are, as mentioned, not the primarly method for making action adjustments. Neck relief is what the t-rod does after the saddle height, nut slots and fret work has been done to get the action to the desired height. Neck relief is what eliminates or minimizes fret rattle in low action setups......with high action the neck can be setup flat, with no relief at all.

 

And yes, your 07 J200 could well need a neck reset to be right. As we all know, Gibson acoustic guitars are finicky animals and the Boseman plant is not known for it's consistancy. I own an '06 SJ200 and if I was anal about low action, it's certainly ready for a neck reset. But I like zero neck relief and medium high action on my guitar, probably higher than most would tolerate in a high end guitar. I play a heavy pick with a heavy hand and it works out just fine. Consultation with your local repairman should help you determine if you're style and setup tastes require a reset, but trust us - twisting the t-rod nut is not the way to lower your guitar's action.

[ajsc]

"Just curious, what size allen key do you use to adjust the truss rod on your J200 and Advanced Jumbo? I know what I use to adjust mine."

 

One of them, there, allen key's!!

I'm a little curious too.

[drathbun]

Run a straight-edge (on edge) down the center of your fretboard between the D and G strings and see where it runs up against the bridge (bridge not saddle). If the straight-edge just slides over the bridge surface then your neck angle is perfect. If the straight-edge runs into the thickness of the bridge wood at the bottom close to the surface of the top, the neck angle is poor.

 

Some guitars are let out of the factory with poor neck angles. When setup, they play great, but there is little saddle left for the guitar to move over time. I bought a brand new Larrivee L03 that was a great player but the neck angle was so bad, there was hardly any saddle left and therefore the break angle to the pins was very shallow and the tone suffered. Not to mention the fact the guitar would not age without needing a neck reset. Needless to say I got rid of it.

[jchabalk]

Check out this post for a pic of what drathbun's talking about - he helped me with mine last year. sounds like basically the same thing you're talking about:

 

http://forums.gibson.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=250374#post250374

 

That thread has my situation and outcome in it. still gives me heartburn thinking about it, but it's all worked out very well in the end. gibson's great!

[Mark Lee]

Just curious, what size allen key do you use to adjust the truss rod on your J200 and Advanced Jumbo? I know what I use to adjust mine.

 

If you know, why are you asking? If you must know, I use a 5/16 inch phosphor bronze allen key.

[Jinder]

Mark Lee, you always make me chuckle.

 

Firstly, Gibson truss rods are adjusted using a 5/16" SOCKET, and secondly a phosphor bronze Allen Key would be about as much use as a chocolate fireguard-it'd be way too soft. In fact, I've never hear of Phos.Bronze being used for any kind of toolmaking (before I went full-time with music I was an industrial toolmaker in the Aerospace industry, and it was certainly never used there, or in the automotive sector, in which my Dad was a development engineer)

 

KSDaddy is a highly skilled and experienced professional luthier, and he was cross-questioning you because you were/are offering homespun advice about something that, if executed wrongly, could seriously damage someone's guitar.

 

Many people come to these forums for advice, and I would say that if you can't give it in a constructive way, with cogency and experience, then the best course of action is just to keep quiet.

 

Just my .02, of course.

[passthej45]

From looking @ ksdaddy's site, it's obvious he knows his shite......I'd defer to him f' sure.

[passthej45]

in the previous post I should have written " knows his stuff" .......sorry[blush]

[Mark Lee]

Mark Lee' date=' you always make me chuckle.

 

Firstly, Gibson truss rods are adjusted using a 5/16" SOCKET, and secondly a phosphor bronze Allen Key would be about as much use as a chocolate fireguard-it'd be way too soft. In fact, I've never hear of Phos.Bronze being used for any kind of toolmaking (before I went full-time with music I was an industrial toolmaker in the Aerospace industry, and it was certainly never used there, or in the automotive sector, in which my Dad was a development engineer)

 

KSDaddy is a highly skilled and experienced professional luthier, and he was cross-questioning you because you were/are offering homespun advice about something that, if executed wrongly, could seriously damage someone's guitar.

 

Many people come to these forums for advice, and I would say that if you can't give it in a constructive way, with cogency and experience, then the best course of action is just to keep quiet.

 

Just my .02, of course. [/quote']

 

Well I suppose you can tell me the precise difference between the two? Be as technical as you can, I don't mind. I've never met the worlds foremost expert on the subject of hand tools that go under stress when used correctly. Here where I reside the two are synonymous. An allen key is exactly the same thing as a socket wrench. I'm not feeble minded; in fact, I'm a member of MENSA (and if in doubt I can prove it to you). Phosphor bronze will not torque or fatigue under the turning action, and it will not strip the truss rod, slowly causing wear over time. My brother is a watchmaker and and he uses phosphor bronze tools daily. They do indeed exist. I was not offering homespun advice, I was offering a legitimate piece of information that could help. besides, KSDaddy himself stated about the guitar in question "If the action is too high on his J200, then a good place to look is the truss rod relief, as that can have a drastic effect on string height"

 

Since KDSaddy is apparently so highly skilled, I would like to ask him, what is the difference in tone and projection between an acoustic archtop with a relatively flat soundboard when compared to an identically built archtop with a highly pronounced arch in its soundboard. I know the definitive answer; I spent time at Oxford studying the results.

[drathbun]

An allen key is exactly the same thing as a socket wrench.

 

...and if my Grandma had wheels she'd be a wagon.

 

Allen is male and the allen screw is female let's call her Alice!. The Socket Wrench is female... let's call her Betty' date=' and the thing it screws is male... let's call him Bolt!! Allen screws Alice and Betty screws Bolt. Sometimes Bolt gets a little too stiff and needs some lube.

 

God I love lutherie!

 

~havin' a smoke~

 

 

Allen Wrench

[img']http://thehackersparadise.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/allen-wrench-4112.jpg[/img]

 

Socket Wrench

[BCSC]

I just tried the straight edge test. My J-45 and Songwriter check out perfectly, with the ruler running right along the top of the bridge.

 

On my J-200 the ruler, when flat against the frets, runs about 1/16 above the bridge. What the heck does that mean?

[ksdaddy]

Since KDSaddy is apparently so highly skilled, I would like to ask him, what is the difference in tone and projection between an acoustic archtop with a relatively flat soundboard when compared to an identically built archtop with a highly pronounced arch in its soundboard. I know the definitive answer; I spent time at Oxford studying the results.

 

 

 

I don't know the answer to that question. You win. You're smarter than me.

 

Now excuse me, I'm a bit peckish for some library paste.

[Mark Lee]

...and if my Grandma had wheels she'd be a wagon.

 

Allen is male and the allen screw is female let's call her Alice!. The Socket Wrench is female... let's call her Betty' date=' and the thing it screws is male... let's call him Bolt!! Allen screws Alice and Betty screws Bolt. Sometimes Bolt gets a little too stiff and needs some lube.

 

God I love lutherie!

 

~havin' a smoke~

 

 

Allen Wrench

[img']http://thehackersparadise.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/allen-wrench-4112.jpg[/img]

 

Socket Wrench

 

I stand corrected. The one I have in my kit has both (one at each end). My apologies.

 

As for the answer to my question, a higher arc top will have more projection and a relatively oboe like tone when compared to a flatter arched top, which will have less projection and a more flute like tibre. think of it as comparing the projection and bark a vintage Stromberg Master 400 or De Luxe (whose tops are consistently between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 inches high) to the beautiful voice of a D'Anjelico New Yorker or Excel (whose soundboards are rarely much over 1 1/8th inches). You read it here first.

[bkharmony]

Well I suppose you can telly me the precise difference between the two? Be as technical as you can' date=' I don't mind. Ive never met the [b']words formost[/b] expert on the subject of hand tools that go under stress when used correctly. Here were I reside the two are synonymous. An allen key is exactly the same thing as a socket wrench. I'm not feeble minded; infact, I'm a member of MENSA

 

CLEARLY. WOW.

[brians356]

With all due respect to Freddie Green, RIP, who was a great rhythm guitarist, he either didn't know squat about guitar tech, or he is being misrepresented here.

[brians356]

Guitar@OZ (got a name?):

 

You might be interested in putting some metrics to the neck set and action, for your own edification:

 

1) Verify (and possibly adjust truss rod to attain) a reasonable neck relief. Capo at first fret, hold down a string at 15th fret, and see that there is a slight gap, about the thickness of a high E string, between the string and the top of the 7th or 8th fret. If there is no gap at all, stop. The neck could be back-bowed. You should have at least a slight gap, up to .010" is typical, but even .015" is not exessive.

 

2) Leaving the capo on 1st fret, measure the space between low E string and top of 13th fret to nearest 1/64".

 

3) Measure from top of bridge to bottom of low E string at front of the saddle, to nearest 1/64".

 

The "ideal" is a saddle height twice the 13th fret string height. E.g. if the 13th fret value was 6/64", then 12/64" or 6/32" at the saddle for the same string is "ideal." However, saddle heights considerably lower, 75% or even 50% of ideal, is typical and not considered a problem by many. But when when it approaches 50% (e.g. 6/64" in this example, or equal to the 13th fret value) or lower, it is a definite candidate for a neck reset.

 

Note that this method is a more precise proxy for the common method of laying a straightedge on the frets and seeing where the edge hits the bridge. "Ideally" the edge just touches the top of the bridge or base of the saddle (assuming the bridge hasn't been shaved!) which is equivalent to saddle height = 2x 13th fret string height. Simple geometry at play here.

 

Now you see why shaving a saddle is a way to cheat and "restore" proper neck angle!

[thabesh]

Drathbun = awesome response my friend