Do you REALLY not know how your band sounds?

[swleary]

Wow is this thread interesting. So I'll keep it brief......Music is to the ear of the beholder. One person might simply love it, the other simply hate it.

[Cruznolfart]

So you get hired' date=' show up at the gig, play what he-who-signs-the-check asked for...

 

... but the crowd HATES it.

 

You're saying this is a win?

 

 

LOL! Tough call, mon. But, if you present yourself as a pro, that's what you bring to the gig. You bring what passed the audition. And if you got the gig playing C&W and the crowd wants Rock, you better be playin' in a place with a cage.

 

By the by, I've played clubs where the management seemed out of touch with what their clientele's musical tastes. It's not fun gettin' stuck in that spot.

[Cruznolfart]

i just posted a vid of me playing' date=' but not looking for appraisal...this is a guitar playing community and i think it's fantastic to share our talents, i love playing and watching others play so feel free to post your clips guys! it's all good [cool']

 

LOL! Once again, that's not what the thread's about. Yes, by all means, post your clips. But if you're hustling gigs, you sure as hell better KNOW you're ready. And, if you're not, wait 'till you are.

 

Surely playing out hasn't changed that much in 40 years. I'm not talking about butterflies, stage-fright, learning-curves, encouraging new pickers, offering suggestions on how to record better, being positive about other's musical abilities or ANY of that stuff.

 

I'm talking about a band that is accepting jobs. And they post some material somewhere, asking for opinions as to "Whether they are READY to play out". Different horse, different color.

 

I'd have never left the garage had I not KNOWN we were ready. And, when we were ready, we didn't have to be told. Now I hear clips posted by people who say they're gigging, and they sound like they just started practicing together. 6 months later they sound the same. For all the fun they're having, in my opinion they're not ready to gig. And they should know it.

 

Something happened along the way with this poor thread. "Hell yeah, post your clips, we're a guitar group, that's what it's all about."

 

That's not what the op was in reference to.

 

Peace

[Cruznolfart]

Wow is this thread interesting. So I'll keep it brief......Music is to the ear of the beholder. One person might simply love it' date=' the other simply hate it.

 

[/quote']

 

And that is relevant to the question of whether a band knows they're ready or not...how? It wasn't about whether they play something you or I might enjoy. It's about the musicianship issue...y'know...like can they play at all? And, if they can't, why don't they know it?

[S t e v e]

LOL! Once again' date=' that's not what the thread's about. Yes, by all means, post your clips. But if you're hustling gigs, you sure as hell better KNOW you're ready. And, if you're not, wait 'till you are.

 

Surely playing out hasn't changed that much in 40 years. I'm not talking about butterflies, stage-fright, learning-curves, encouraging new pickers, offering suggestions on how to record better, being positive about other's musical abilities or ANY of that stuff.

 

I'm talking about a band that is accepting jobs. And they post some material somewhere, asking for opinions as to "Whether they are READY to play out". Different horse, different color.

 

I'd have never left the garage had I not KNOWN we were ready. And, when we were ready, we didn't have to be told. Now I hear clips posted by people who say they're gigging, and they sound like they just started practicing together. 6 months later they sound the same. For all the fun they're having, in my opinion they're not ready to gig. And they should know it.

 

Something happened along the way with this poor thread. "Hell yeah, post your clips, we're a guitar group, that's what it's all about."

 

That's not what the op was in reference to. :-

 

Peace[/quote']

 

sorry cruz, i too have got lost in the thread somewhere...i see what you mean

[swleary]

I only play in front of my blow up sheep now

[Cruznolfart]

Well if one is amongst the professional ranks' date=' they should ask the check writer.[biggrin']

 

Most serious working pros don't post here regularly.

 

And those who do don't ask if they're good enough. :-

[Cruznolfart]

sorry cruz' date=' i too have got lost in the thread somewhere...i see what you mean [cool']

 

It's all good, mon, no apologies necessary. I appreciate your contribution.

[S t e v e]

I only play in front of my blow up sheep now :-

 

[DanvillRob]

Sorry, I'm coming into this late, (been working on some stuff on the guitar), but there's a difference between blastin' someone who ain't up to your level, and telling someone who just flat doesn't get it that they're good..... Haven't you all seen the preliminaries of American Idol? You hear some of those people sing and it flat hurts your ears.... and THEY think they sing good 'cause they've always been told they're good.

 

Then progress from that to Paula Abdul.... always points out the positive.... and Simon who is brutal, (but almost always right).

 

Don't you think every contestant values Simon's approval above the others?

 

(now I'll go back to practicin' Blackbird)

[NeoConMan]

I rarely listen to the stuff other people post, I don't really know why.

 

I guess I realize this is one area where my opinion isn't the most important one in the crowd.

 

(That's rare too...)

 

[biggrin]/

 

Usually, it's not very entertaining.

If I am invited to listen to something, I will do so - but beyond that?

 

Nah....

 

I suppose I can give encouragement, and I will to people who ask me directly, but I won't blow smoke

up their *** or sugar coat it. I'll compliment any aspect of it I consider worthy...

 

My playing ability isn't very impressive.

I don't have the technical expertise, the education, or raw talent to smoke anybody on guitar.

I play to amuse myself, it's my therapy.

 

I was almost 40 years old before I played a real live gig in a bar full of people, as a guest of the band.

We were friends, they kept asking if I wanted to play, so I finally did.

Now I'll play the rhythm parts on four of five good rockers, then I've had enough of "performing" for people.

I'll take my seat and simply be a supportive friend for the guys onstage, and help with anything they need.

 

I wouldn't want the responsibility of having a JOB playing gigs - I do it for kicks when I can.

I have too many other things competing for my time and brain power to focus as I should on gigs.

 

 

 

As far as saying what's good or bad, I'll be the first to say I'm a musical snob.

I like what I like, and I relish being around people who share my tastes.

I won't listen to sh!t I don't like, I don't care who's playing it.

If the guys are talented, I'll give them that.

 

But a friend of mine has a son who's a bass freak.

He's into Primus, Tool, and any band that has "Eruption-esque" bass parts.

You know - the million note a minute stuff with the slapping, popping, hammering, chording.....

I don't want to discourage the kid, he shows immense talent, but 5 minutes of that sh!t is all I can stand.

Can this kid play a simple 4/4 walking bass line in a boring mid-tempo rock song from the seventies?

 

 

 

There's plenty of video out there somewhere with me playing onstage.

You'd be hard pressed to find anything noteworthy in my solid-but-boring rhythm parts.

Would I want it posted online?

No.

 

I don't really see the value of video beyond the use of the band to hone their mix.

An audio tape is all you need to do that.

If folks wanna post stuff for fun "Here's what we've been doing, check it out!" that's fine.

If they really want opinions to sharpen their game, I'm not so sure.

 

I've listened to tapes of what I played when the band sounded great and the crowd loved it.

The tape sounds like sh!t compared to how we remembered it.

The tape doesn't lie....

[Cruznolfart]

I only play in front of my blow up sheep now

 

 

I suppose that's preferable to behind it. Just sayin'...

[Blackie]

I played bass in a band that live we sounded a like horrible wall of screaming noise......one bar owner ran up and at the end of the second song

was like.........stop stop ......what are yall doing..........It was kind of funny to us being drunked up an all........

[The Mick]

I have always had a good friend and professional sound guy listen to us at gigs rehearsal ect and give advise as to what he hears that does not work or sound right so it can be dealt with. Each time it's smaller and smaller criticisms. Problem is there is always one guy in the group that has a problem with the criticism even though it's asked for. It's not that he's telling us we suck but pointing out small imperfections that don't work. I find it very help full. Nothing worse then a bunch of yes men when you could get real opinions.

[FirstMeasure]

Exposure.

 

That's why people post videos, without it your a garage band. Nowadays you go to a club or a bar owner that doesn't know you from the Elks Lodge you better have a streaming video, Myspace Page, Youtube Accaount, or something to show yourself. Once it's up there it looks better if it has a few comments under it, no matter what they say, you need to look like your interesting and Popular ( Gawd, that sounds like High School)

 

As for the guys that don't know they suck but ask for approval with questions like "Are We Ready To Gig?", they may not know. I think Cruzn hit it when he said that "Honest Self Appraisal" is a lost art. Just read any conversation on this or any other forum about "Whos Better". It always ends up with "It's all Subjective, better is in the ear of the beholder", leaving most young reader believing that there is no real bar set to become good. Someone will like what I'm doing no matter how easy and lame it is.

 

The concept of Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced have faded. In skiing there's no "Eye of the Beholder", you either make it down the Advanced Run or you crash hard. Beginners are Snow Plowing on the Bunny Slope, Intermediates are Stemming down the Blue Diamond Runs trying to keep their skis parallel, while the advanced skiers are forgetting what they learned as beginners and looking for places they haven't skied yet. If only it was that Cut and Cried for guitarists.

[NeoConMan]

I cannot disagree with a single word of that.

 

[Cruznolfart]

Sorry' date=' I'm coming into this late, (been working on some stuff on the guitar), but there's a difference between blastin' someone who ain't up to your level, and telling someone who just flat doesn't get it that they're good..... Haven't you all seen the preliminaries of American Idol? You hear some of those people sing and it flat hurts your ears.... and THEY think they sing good 'cause they've always been told they're good.

 

Then progress from that to Paula Abdul.... always points out the positive.... and Simon who is brutal, (but almost always right).

 

Don't you think every contestant values Simon's approval above the others?

 

(now I'll go back to practicin' Blackbird)[/quote']

 

Thanks for this observation, Bob. And it's right on, IMO. I understand what Duane's saying with respect to the fact that you mature as you gain experience. You should be more polished after doing it for awhile.

 

But you came up in the same time I did and started the same way. I'd be willing to bet there was a band on damn near every block in your neighborhood when you were in HS. And those guys...US, were VERY aware of each other and VERY competitive for the few, cs-paying gigs that kids could get back then...knowing that the exposure could lead to some breaks. Had we not been ready before we rolled that door up, we'd have been laughed off the stage first time out. Mind you, that was in little ol' Yuba City, up the road a piece from you. It was a good time for garage bands.

[Witmer]

Asking for critiques of your works-in-progress isn't really what I had in mind' date=' Hwy9, and I'm in agreement with your process here. Nothing at all lame about it, in my point of view.

 

If you've put an act or band together and are at the point that you're soliciting paid jobs, shouldn't you KNOW you're ready? And...if you're not, isn't it just as obvious to you as it would be to anyone else? Or do we delude ourselves where our own efforts are concerned?

[/quote']

 

 

Oh... I misunderstood. Funny.. I don't know if I've ever come across the kind of thread you're describing, then. Maybe because I spend nearly all my forum time here. :-)

 

Yeah, we know when we're ready for a gig, and when we're not. At least, I think we do... :(

[milod]

Neo hit one point I'd like to expand on.

 

The band sounded great and the crowd loved it and the tape showed they "suck" and tapes don't lie.

 

But Neo, the point that I constantly must remind myself about is that if it entertains a given crowd(s), it's good. We are two creatures when we take money to play. We're musicians and we're entertainers. Sometimes those are kinda the same and sometimes they're very different. It's also something most beginner bands ignore even if they're technically "good," but don't "entertain."

 

A lotta bands are very popular, at least for a time, with a given local crowd. They may have something "good" to their sound or it simply may be a fad sorta thing. How stuff is recorded also can make a big, big difference. I've listened to a lotta "name" bands that really weren't all that hot live, at least on the night I heard them.

 

Again... some "poor" bands keep getting gigs because they entertain. That's often lost on tapes, and absolutely is lost in the minds of musicians wondering "am I good enough" when that's not the entire criterion for getting paid.

 

I've mentioned in other threads that playing live, the "reason" so many of us use to buy more gear, is in ways far more dependent on where one is sitting and the room itself in terms of what one hears. I stand by that.

 

My own recording is for "practice" since I'm sitting at a computer desk with a guitar and sometimes a mike, watching the dit-dots of the recording program and sometimes thinking more of that than "what am I doing and how will it sound." I've put up a few pieces but frankly I don't particularly care for what it sounds like. A few "honest and qualified" friends say I sound a lot better "live" because I let go a bit more. I also recognized a long time ago that the only talent I have in this world is an ability to work hard to develop skill. That doesn't really translate into being a good, let alone great, musician. Or entertainer. Still... I've got a bit of ego regardless. <grin>

 

I've been paid to play and at times I've been told honestly that there's no market in the area for what I'd been doing at given points in time. That's because of the guy who signs the check wants a certain "feel" for his/her saloon. The best argument I might note came from a small casino operator who said bands don't "work" for his joint because it brings in bodies but they don't use his gaming that pays the bills.

 

Frankly a lot of the stuff I've heard from younger bands may seem "tight" and "good" to their market segment, but I figured they were horrid and banal in spite of odd clothes and a funky video. They might, on the other hand, bring in a good "paying" crowd simply because they are what they are and perhaps who they are.

 

And then... there's the bit Dennis (Cruzn) made about "honest self appraisal." Hey, I'm old but still can be affected positively or negatively by feedback of "that's good" or "I don't really care for that" from honest other folks.

 

I dunno. What do you tell a kid who's told "that's wonderful" by peers, and even has a venue that will pay him/her, but that you think is horridly unskilled and isn't "tight?" Or... with all due respect to the late great guitarist, I don't think Segovia would be hired for saloons in my neck of the woods unless he had some jokes, and... a good drummer.

 

Just some thoughts, I guess...

 

m

[cwness]

Sorry' date=' I'm coming into this late, (been working on some stuff on the guitar), but there's a difference between blastin' someone who ain't up to your level, and telling someone who just flat doesn't get it that they're good..... Haven't you all seen the preliminaries of American Idol? You hear some of those people sing and it flat hurts your ears.... and THEY think they sing good 'cause they've always been told they're good.

 

Then progress from that to Paula Abdul.... always points out the positive.... and Simon who is brutal, (but almost always right).

 

Don't you think every contestant values Simon's approval above the others?

 

(now I'll go back to practicin' Blackbird)[/quote']

 

Your example of Idol and the people in shock when they are told they can't

sing is exactly what happens when your not truthful with someone and there

abilities. There is a difference between encouragement and just telling something

thats not true. I'll bet after the hear themselves on the show their thinking why

didn't they tell I can't sing. This is the point I've been trying to make but I guess

some just don't get it. They just don't want to offend someone. This doesn't help

anyone.

 

CW

[DanvillRob]

Thanks for this observation' date=' Bob. And it's right on, IMO. I understand what Duane's saying with respect to the fact that you mature as you gain experience. You [i']should[/i] be more polished after doing it for awhile.

 

But you came up in the same time I did and started the same way. I'd be willing to bet there was a band on damn near every block in your neighborhood when you were in HS. And those guys...US, were VERY aware of each other and VERY competitive for the few, cs-paying gigs that kids could get back then...knowing that the exposure could lead to some breaks. Had we not been ready before we rolled that door up, we'd have been laughed off the stage first time out. Mind you, that was in little ol' Yuba City, up the road a piece from you. It was a good time for garage bands.

 

Man...was respondin' to this...had LOTA verbiage typed....hit a wrong key and "POOF!" it was all gone! (only thing worse would be in milod did that~)

 

Anyway, I'll tell you a true story. Many of you know that I went to high school with many members of Tower Of Power. Rocko Prestia and Emilio Castillo are still members. Emilio, (Mimi), was then, and is still the leader. His brother Jack was the drummer, (insert ugly story here). Now I talk to Mimi from time to time, and did a concert with him back in 2007. Mimi asked why I didn't get in touch with Jack. So, Jack called me and invited us over for dinner.

 

When we first got there, Jack's wife, (they were BF & GF back in high school), was kind of "snippy" saying stuff to my wife like, "Oh, your husband was the popular musician back in high school..... Jack was so envious of his band...etc....etc..."

 

I had no idea just how competitive all the bands were back then, (and yes...you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a garage band back then).

[DanvillRob]

Your example of Idol and the people in shock when they are told they can't

sing is exactly what happens when your not truthful with someone and there

abilities. There is a difference between encouragement and just telling something

thats not true. I'll bet after the hear themselves on the show their thinking why

didn't they tell I can't sing. This is the point I've been trying to make but I guess

some just don't get it. They just don't want to offend someone. This doesn't help

anyone.

 

CW

 

I'm thinkin' we all pretty much would do the same thing.... some more blunt than others...but if someone asked me my opining of their group and they sucked on ice....I think I'd tell them they needed more time and practice. If they were "fair", I'd probably tell them they sounded fine, if they were good...I'd tell 'em so.

 

Trying not to discourage 'em, but ya gotta be honest.

[FennRx]

i think cruz should post the link to what he was talking about

[Cruznolfart]

i think cruz should post the link to what he was talking about

 

The thread that predicated my op was on another guitar site this time' date=' although I have seen similar posts here as well. And, other than to possibly embarrass the poster in question, I'm not sure that it would serve any purpose. Suffice to say it wasn't a post soliciting opinions of a specific song or arrangement, instrument of effect, or any individual musician. I will paraphrase as best I can;

 

[i']Please listen to these clips of our last practice and give me your opinion as to whether we are ready to play some paying gigs...or not. Be brutal if you must but please give me your opinion. We've got a gig coming up next month at Rockin' Rowdy's BBQ and Beer Joint and we need to really be ready. So what do you think?[/i]

 

You play the clip, the sound is, of course, awful cuz it was done on the video cam mic in a big room with several un-mic'd amps. The vocals are unintelligible, forced and out of tune. The tempo drags on every number. The overall balance is non-existent. You hear mostly drums, a little rhythm guitar, keys when the drums aren't overpowering, and the screechy-sorta vocal. The good thing is you sort of recognize the song...sort of. There is no tightness, no togetherness. The starts are sloppy, the endings are sloppy and you are left with the feeling that you're watching someone jam on some tunes that some of them sort of know; the others - not really.

 

Yeah, it's "whee, aren't we having fun?" but...it ISN'T a band that's ready to play out. It's a hobby-band pretending to be gigging musicians. And, yes; if everyone's happy then I'm happy too. But this band (and every other band like it) isn't ready to gig. They aren't professional in any sense of the word. And they're going out into the gigging world to make their impression. They're fooling themselves into thinking they're ready. And, in my opinion, they muddy the pool for those who would set a higher standard.

 

Of course, there's always the possibility that the band is fantastic and are just having a big ol' belly laugh at my ******.

[FirstMeasure]

The thread that predicated my op was on another guitar site this time' date=' although I have seen similar posts here as well. And, other than to possibly embarrass the poster in question, I'm not sure that it would serve any purpose. Suffice to say it wasn't a post soliciting opinions of a specific song or arrangement, instrument of effect, or any individual musician. I will paraphrase as best I can;

 

[i']Please listen to these clips of our last practice and give me your opinion as to whether we are ready to play some paying gigs...or not. Be brutal if you must but please give me your opinion. We've got a gig coming up next month at Rockin' Rowdy's BBQ and Beer Joint and we need to really be ready. So what do you think?[/i]

 

You play the clip, the sound is, of course, awful cuz it was done on the video cam mic in a big room with several un-mic'd amps. The vocals are unintelligible, forced and out of tune. The tempo drags on every number. The overall balance is non-existent. You hear mostly drums, a little rhythm guitar, keys when the drums aren't overpowering, and the screechy-sorta vocal. The good thing is you sort of recognize the song...sort of. There is no tightness, no togetherness. The starts are sloppy, the endings are sloppy and you are left with the feeling that you're watching someone jam on some tunes that some of them sort of know; the others - not really.

 

Yeah, it's "whee, aren't we having fun?" but...it ISN'T a band that's ready to play out. It's a hobby-band pretending to be gigging musicians. And, yes; if everyone's happy then I'm happy too. But this band (and every other band like it) isn't ready to gig. They aren't professional in any sense of the word. And they're going out into the gigging world to make their impression. They're fooling themselves into thinking they're ready. And, in my opinion, they muddy the pool for those who would set a higher standard.

 

Of course, there's always the possibility that the band is fantastic and are just having a big ol' belly laugh at my ******.

 

Did you tell them all this, they may need to hear it and you put it very well.