Help With Jazz?

[Larsson]

Hi,

 

So tomorrow i am off to attempt to play guitar for a Big Band jazz thing.... i have talked to the conductor he says i can sit with the current guitarist (who is leaving soon) to see if i can get to grips with the music.

 

I was wondering, and im sure there is, if there are any jazz masters out there who could give me a few tips of what to expect and how to handle it.

 

If possible could somebody post up some key chords i will need to know, already know a few: A-7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, B7, E7, Eflat7.... And also if anyone could tell me what scales are used for jazz, are pentatonic scales used?

 

Feedback much appreciated,

 

Cheers,

 

Larsson

[milod]

Lars...

 

There are a number of chord charts available on the Internet, some even set up so it makes transposition relatively easy. But "jazz" is a broad field, and a lot would depend on arrangements, whether you're doing strictly rhythm or lead... As for scales, etc., I'm not sure they fit as much as what you might hear inside your head with the rest of a given arrangement.

 

L5Larry is probably our resident expert on playing that general sort of music here, but then again, so much depends on the arrangement and how the whole outfit is supposed to sound.

 

A hint, though, from personal experience... You may choose to do three or four-string chords rather than all six, and figure out where you wanna be on the neck depending on your own technique, the sound of the current guitarist and what the director has in mind. It's my observation that doing rhythm comping for some "big band" stuff, you often find yourself in keys such as a-flat, b-flat and e-flat... which means thinking differently and mentally transposing a lot compared to the more traditional guitar keys, although F seems to be fairly popular too.

 

What I'd do is figure what's being played currently, sit in, maybe even take in a recording device, and figure how you want to handle your situation in terms of technique. For example, my own background is more along the lines of folk and classical, so I tend to come at music from a different world from what more traditional "jazz guitarists" do by simple reflex action. Even doing octaves, I discovered a year ago that what I was doing for 40 years ain't what a longtime "bebop" jazz picker would do for fingerings. That sorta thing may or may not make a difference.

 

Also, regardless of "scales," the arrangement itself will largely impact what you're doing in some "big band" situations. Then too, you may want to stick closer to a melody line for a solo, and that becomes the controlling factor.

 

m

[djroge1]

Wow so much to learn in so little of time...

[Larsson]

thank you very much for the reply,

 

hopefully i can learn from the current guitarist and find out how he plays and also talk to him about what stuff to practise and so on.

I believe that it will be easier for me to learn by watching someone else who is already very skilled in big band jazz than for example looking at chord sheets etc...

 

I will keep you posted on how it goes tomorrow and will also check tomorrow before i go off to the practise if anyone else has posted their tips ;)

 

 

Cheers,

 

Larsson

[deepblue]

I was told a few rules of thumb are...

 

Flatwound stings, and use zero vibrato.

[craigh]

In the imortal words of one Francis Vincent Zappa, "Jazz is not dead. It just smells funny".

 

Craig

[Robin Nahum]

Hi' date='

 

So tomorrow i am off to attempt to play guitar for a Big Band jazz thing.... i have talked to the conductor he says i can sit with the current guitarist (who is leaving soon) to see if i can get to grips with the music.

 

I was wondering, and im sure there is, if there are any jazz masters out there who could give me a few tips of what to expect and how to handle it.

 

If possible could somebody post up some key chords i will need to know, already know a few: A-7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, B7, E7, Eflat7.... And also if anyone could tell me what scales are used for jazz, are pentatonic scales used?

 

Feedback much appreciated,

 

Cheers,

 

Larsson[/quote']

 

Hi Larsson,

 

If you get the gig, I guess you'll be playing rhythm (comping) mostly and be allowed to take the occasional solo.

 

You are asking about stuff that takes a lot of study but is very rewarding. And I have foound that the jazz community is always very supportive of newbies.

 

Comping

 

Because you are in a big band, you need to play smaller chords and stay out of the way. Also play less and play quietly. Your role is to help with the pulse and also tell the front line what kind of chord is being played - major or minor, major 7 or dom 7. You will generally just pick out the 3rd and the 7th of the chords and leave the 1 and 5 to the bass and the higher notes to the horns. You will also need to reach an accommodation with the pianist as you cover the same territory.

 

Have a look at Charlton Johnson's Swing and Big Band Guitar: Four-To-The Bar Comping in the Style of Freddie Green :

 

http://www.amazon.com/Swing-Big-Band-Guitar-Four/dp/0793573815/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256717745&sr=8-1

 

Also have a big listen to Freddie Green playing with the Count Basie Band.

 

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=freddie+green&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g9g-s1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

 

In terms of grips, jazz doesn't encourage the cowboy/folk chord approach where there is a set way or two of playing a given chord. In jazz, a set shape is a starting point but as you skill up you learn to choose chord voicings that make for smooth and subtle changes. Often you just change one note.

 

Are you terrified yet?

 

Soloing

 

A number of scales are used for jazz soloing. The choice depends on the chords over which you are playing. As a start:

 

Major scale and all its modes

Pentatonic major and minor

Harmonic minor and all its modes

Melodic minor and all its modes

 

and then there's a whole lot more - diminished, whole tone, bebop and so on.

 

In rock, songs tend to stay in the same key throughout and one scale will get you through a solo. In jazz, key changes are common. The key signature at the start just serves to define where to pitch the first note of the melody but does not say anything about what notes you are allowed to play when you solo. Rather, you need to analyse the chords and determine the tone centres (think of these as the key for that bit of the song).

 

To give you a very preliminary insight into jazz soloing, you will see a lot of 2-5-1s in jazz e.g. Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 or Gm7 C7 Fmaj7. If you are soloing conservatively, you would play notes from the scale of C major over the first and from F major over the second. Often it sounds better to play the 1-3-5-7-9 of the chord rather than run up and down scales - and you should generally avoid the 4th. If you are changing tone centres from C major to F major, you would probably "outline" this change by playing and accenting a Bb - which is the note that is in the scale of F but not in C.

 

Enjoy yourself at the big band rehearsal - watch and listen, and think seriously about getting a teacher.

 

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

RN

 

PS The Marshall in your avatar may not be quite the best choice of amp.

 

PPS And no, a new guitar is not required.

[mcmurray]

Learn how to spell all chords, then play only chord tones.

 

And also if anyone could tell me what scales are used for jazz' date=' are pentatonic scales used?

[/quote']

 

lol

 

Nope not much. Melodic minor and it's modes are the bread and butter scales for Jazz.

 

edit: listen to Robin Nahum.

[Larsson]

thank you very much for the more replies, for now i will be using a small roland amp at the rehearshals and i have covered some jazz with my teacher but hope to do more...

i will let you guys know tonight how it goes

 

Cheers,

 

Larsson

[pippy]

Thanks, Larsson, for asking this question.

 

I've been meaning to get some grounding in this style myself and you've just prepared the groundwork for me!

 

Best wishes for the performance and I'm looking forward to your report.

[L5Larry]

Very good advise has been written above.

 

I guess I am the resident big band guitarist around here, and could write about the subject for days... but here's a little advise in a nutshell.

 

 

The two most important things to "comping" guitar in a big band is chart reading and chord voicings.

 

Chart Reading:

You will be expected to read sheet music as if you had been doing it all your life. This is one of the toughest aspects for most guitarists, as most of us (including me) are self taught, and learned to play by ear. The first time you see a big band guitar chart is a very humbling experience.

 

Chord Voicings:

You can throw everything you know about "cowboy chords", and Rock & Roll chords out the window, you'll never play a single one of them. A few "blues" chords are applicable, but that's about it. There is an entire set of chord voicings that have developed through big band music known as "inside chords". These are 3 or 4 note chords played on the middle four strings of the guitar, in the middle of the neck.

 

As has been mentioned above, the king of big band guitar was Freddie Green from the Count Basie band. Listen to, and study, everything you can about Freddie. There are many published materials (books, videos, websites, etc) about him and his style. Most every big band guitarist since has tried to play like Freddie (including, and especially, ME), and that is a lofty goal to aspire to.

 

Another thing to remember is SIMPLICITY. Remember, you are part of the "rhythm section", and your job is to lay down the groove (and background) for the horns.

[Witmer]

PPS And no' date=' a new guitar is not required. [biggrin']

 

 

Aw, come on. Don't take the fun out of it! ;) :-

[deepblue]

My two cents.....dinner Jazz I can handle, but that crazy stuff is for fans only I suppose.

I guess there was a reason most Jazz musicians from the past were hooked on smack! lol

 

Heres a little trivia....Jazz got its name from the "Jasmine" smells coming from the brothels of New Orleans....

I have also ben told that Jazz means *nookie* in slang.

[milod]

On another thread there was discussion that after a half century, "rock" might be too broad a term for a wide variety of music.

 

Jazz has an even longer history, I'd say over 80 years is probable, over a century if "ragtime" is included.

 

What this thread essentially covered is "big band" jazz which is a specialized variety with an interesting history of development on its own as well as perception of the guitar's place in it.

 

It's been noted that the F-hole archtop replaced the banjo at least in part because it was very strong in the mids which fit the radio and recording capabilities of the first half of the 20th century. Doing as L5Larry suggests with most chording coming on the middle 4 strings during big band guitar comping does reinforce that concept.

 

Jazz made it into the 1950s, but with a splintering. Big bands died out and combos came in; any music that one could dance to would be popular, but a three or four-piece combo just didn't have the "whumpf" to get into a "fast dance" style for the era and hence early "Rock" shot the electric guitar into prominence.

 

"Jazz" combos tended to take the more complex "chamber music" direction for a more esoteric and much smaller market share instead. As Larry noted, even chord formation is an entirely different game as if it were a different instrument - which in ways, swing guitar is.

 

I'll agree that I like my "jazz" to be approachable; hum-able. I kid that I'm not really playing guitar, I'm playing piano bar keyboard stuff on a six-string. That's because I like even fancy chords to back a melody one might hum or sing with a degree of ease. That got way too complex in the jazz world during the 50s and 60s and that's why... <grin>

 

EDIT: I heard rather more crude sexual references for "jazz" in my youth during the '50s...

 

m

[Artie Owl]

Check out my teacher at myspace Shan Arsenault Music my favorites are melted ice cream and below sea level. His style is solid.

[zigzag]

"I can't get into jazz... I'm never sure when they've stopped warming up and when they've started playing..."

-friend of mine

[deepblue]

"I can't get into jazz... I'm never sure when they've stopped warming up and when they've started playing..."

-friend of mine

 

lol!

[Larsson]

So i came back from the rehearshal about 1 hour ago.... I found myself in a situation where i was unable to play almost all of the chords on the score and also the fact that i cant read music drastically decreased what i was able to play. I was told by the current gutarist to cover as many chords and voicings as i can, thats what he did and i found he was one of the best guitarists i have seen in many years, then i should be able to play all of the music they do.

Along with that i also found that hybrid picking was the best way to play so also need to practise that.

 

I am also going to get my guitar teacher to focus only on jazz in order to get me up to speed with the music and how to play.

I also found that every other musician who was playing in the Big Band was Grade 6/7+ at a minimum and personally i havent taken any grades on guitar so dont know what grade i would be.

 

 

I really appreciate everyones comments and advice it really helped and will carry on to help me to improve my playing skills.

My plan now is to learn 2 chords a day for each i will learn two different voicings of that chord and then put it together to hopefully be able to play properly in this big band.

 

Larsson

[Robin Nahum]

Hi Larsson,

 

Great update! Good to see that you're going to stick at it.

 

I need to ask a difficult question. Is your teacher a jazz player? If not, I suggest that if you want to go in this direction you should find a teacher who is.

 

I started my lessons in jazz guitar with a "guy around the corner" with a serious blues/rock background. Once I started playing in a jazz workshop band and met experienced jazz guitarists and watched how they played, it became very clear that my teacher was "winging" it. This was indicated by his lack of familiarity with standards that I was playing at the workshop as well as the grips, and the all-important underlying theory. There's also a lot of "tricks of the trade" that jazz players just pick up of which he was not aware. So I determined that, while I appreciated what he had given me, it was time to move on. I explained all this to him and we parted on amicable terms.

 

Attending a jazz workshop is a great way to get started playing jazz with others. I was in one for many years - four or five horns, drums, piano, bass and guitar and a great teacher I fondly refer to as the irascible old man or IOM - a veteran horn player and arranger. The charts are easier than in a big band (or should be) and the focus is on learning first and performing second. Joining a big band too soon can be like jumping in at the deep end. As you note, these are serious players and the risk is that you will be struggling rather than enjoying playing, and will be discouraged.

 

In learning jazz chords, will you be starting with the basic "seventh" chords that arise from harmonising the major scale:

 

maj7

min7

dom7

min7b5

dim7 (not actually derived from the major scale but is one of the basic chords)?

 

You can look at Johnson's book as well but I think you will get more from it once you understand the basics of building jazz chords.

 

RN

 

 

PS At another forum, somebody once asked where the term "comping" came from and the standard answer appeared, that it was short for accompanying, but I liked a followup post where the author thought of it as being short for complementing.

[Larsson]

thanks guys for the advice and support!

talked to my guitar teacher today he said he can teach me basics of jazz but not in depth, however on friday i will see my other teacher who i believe graduated for university of music in california doing jazz so he should be able to help me a great deal....

 

i really want to get into the big band stuff it was alot of fun just sitting in and simply following the music to get a feel for it, even if i was unable to play it, and i hope that i will be able to learn enough chords to make my way in the big band and hopefully join sometime next year as the full time guitrarist

 

Cheers,

 

Larsson

[milod]

The "formal training" thing is cool...

 

In fact, even out here in "cowboy chord" country literally, we have a small university with a guitar major - and the prof is a fine jazz guitarist himself.

 

But compared to when I started playing, it seems to me there is an incredible amount of material on the Gibson web site, Youtube and similar Internet sites, that offer a chance to see what's being played, and how. I wish I'd had that opportunity in my early pickin' years...

 

m