epiphone really uses only mahogany?

[pohatu771]

Seams are sometimes easy to spot, sometimes incredibly difficult. I found three different pieces of wood on my friend's Faded SG, but I can't find a single seam on my Mexican Strat. I don't see a veneer either, though.

[Duffy]

Marxbro,

 

Quote from you: Weight is NOT the key. A good LP is NOT the heaviest, nor is the best mahogany the heaviest.

 

 

How do you know that the heaviest mahogany is not the best to make guitars from? Do you have any facts?

 

Heavy, very dense mahogany is going to have distinct tonal qualities, of which I cannot specifically specify; but I do know that very dense, heavy, mahogany has special tonal characteristics and has been prized by many guitar owners. There are many proponents of heavy, dense mahogany LPs, irregardless of your opinion that weight is not the key. The heavier the mahogany is, the more dense it is. Density has been considered an important factor in measuring the quality of mahogany tonewood for guitars, as well as in rating mahogany grades.

 

Your comment on the tonal qualities of heavy mahogany is extremely vague and not supported with any supporting info. Just another comment with little or no merit. Contradicting the post?

 

Mahogany is graded. There is new old stock and many varieties of mahogany. A study of the tonal variations of the various mahogany types would be interesting reading.

 

Obviously there are many many good LPs that are very heavy, and there are also other factors that produce great sounding mahogany guitars other than weight, such as grain pattern, knots, imperfections, etc., that lead to a special tone that certain players and listeners find to be most desirable. And the end result of a guitar is a combination of many variables, including the quality of the mahogany, craftsmanship, electronics, mistakes that produce an unpredictable but outstanding tone, to the ear of some, and a wide variety of factors not easily identified.

 

Many people, however, to repeat, believe that heavy, dense mahogany makes for an outstanding component of a great sounding LP.

 

Evidently you know what the "key" is and what the best mahogany to build an LP with is.

 

Why don't you share this important information with us. We're ready to hear it. You seem to be adamantly certain of yourself. Bring forth the information dude, we are eagerly awaiting it. That's the kind of thing we like to learn and often do from people that have a substantial reservoir of experience and knowledge. We appreciate their input and learn from them.

 

Some of us might actually appreciate your knowledge and be able to learn from you. Maybe you do have some knowledge to contribute in addition to your oppositional opinions.

 

 

Peace dude,

 

Duffy

Winfield, Pa.

[stan 58]

I've had 4 Gibson LPs, a custom, a standard and 2 studios. My studio plus that i have now, is buy far the heavyest and the best sounding one i've ever played. So i side with heavy. Stan.

[Amino Moore]

Well here we are back on the mahogany "beat the dead horse" thread. I think Gibson/Epi are partly responsible for the debate since the specs on the wood are vague to begin with. They want you to have that mahogany/humbucker epiphany and they have carefully marketed it to almost every income bracket. That is smart business.

 

It is very true that the wood used for the 1950's Gibson's is no longer available today, neither is the wood used in the 60's or 70's guitars. It is wishful thinking to hope that a year 2009 Chinese made Epiphone would be made out of anything similar to the vintage guitars of that period.

 

More weight does mean there is more mass but does more mass equal musical resonance?

Your ear may say yes my ear may say no.

Either way body wood is only one component of the overall equation that turns metal, wood and plastic into functional art and becomes something more than the sum of it's parts. So there is more to tone and resonance than just body wood type.

 

While I have to agree with Duffy that alot of unsubstantiated opinion is thrown about on this forum, about nearly every subject, it's a free user forum, not a laboratory produced techincal white paper forum. Take everything with a grain of salt.

 

Personal attacks are a waste of your time typing, dude, and my time reading, so lighten up a little. :D/

 

I have been playing guitar for over 30 years and doing my own setup and repairs for half of that and I still occasionally learn something I didn't know from folks here on the forum.

 

As far as mahogany and finished wood in general, here are two interesting links that might shed a little light on the seemingly never ending debate over what is mahogany and what is not. Sometimes we can benefit from the information available in other areas of expertise that have similar methods or materials, such as clock making or furniture making.

 

http://www.craftsman-style.info/finishing/071-mahogany.htm

 

 

This one is more of a visual guide to grain patterns.

 

http://www.antiqueclockspriceguide.com/woodidguide.php

 

 

IMHO, regardless of what a guitar is made from, what is important is are you satisfied with what you get out of it?

 

Hey RSDx where are you in East TN? I'm in Cookeville.

[Whitmore Willy]

I think Gibson/Epi are partly responsible for the debate since the specs on the wood are vague to begin with. They want you to have that mahogany/humbucker epiphany and they have carefully marketed it to almost every income bracket. That is smart business.

Yup, no argument here.

[cyberpunk409]

The wood they use is called Luan/Lauan otherwise known as Philippine Mahogany. It has very similar grain like real mahogany, but it does NOT belong to the mahogany family at all. But it's industrial name of "Philippine Mahogany" allows manufacturers to use it and call it MAHOGANY.

 

The back veneer that some of you have mentioned, is actually AFRICAN MAHOGANY. The real stuff, but still not what Gibson use. Gibson use Honduras Mahogany in their Les Paul's. African Mahogany is used in the manufacture of 95% of Japanese Made LP copies, including the now extinct Epiphone Elitist and Elite models.

 

The veneer on the back of Epiphone's sure looks pretty, but it's NOT the same wood that you'd find under it should you decide to sand it.

 

The cap may be alder or Philippine Mahogany, but definately not maple. the maple top is just a paper thin veneer.

 

Hope that clears it up for y'all

[Dave]

My real, Gibby Les Paul Studio has 3 pieces of wood under the clear wine red finish. I takes a floodlight to see the joints in the wood, but they exist. That is by design, since a single piece of 2" mahogany is extremely difficult to produce without some defects in the wood. Narrower pieces joined (hopefully well book matched) together provide that beautiful one piece look at a fraction of the cost of obtaining that wide perfect piece.

 

You can also see the thickness of the maple cap by the lighter shade of the maple. The joint between the maple and the mahogany really does stand out.

 

I remember when the selling point of "neck through" guitars was that from the headstock down past the bridge all parts under tension were mounted to the same piece of wood. That, of course, required wings to be installed on the sides of the one piece neck to make the guitar look like it was intended. No one complained about those. In fact, they all bragged, and rightfully so.

 

My take on wood density is that tonal variations and sustain vary with the density and resonance of the wood. Balsa would be low in sustain and who knows what the tone would sound like. Black Ironwood would probably sing forever until the string lost its energy into the wood, but would it sound sweet? Who knows.

 

I still say play it. If it turns you on, buy it.

[MarxBros]

 

Do you have any facts?

 

Heavy' date=' very dense mahogany is going to have distinct tonal qualities, of which I cannot specifically specify;

[/quote']Sounds like you really know what you are talking about.

 

[Dave]

Here's a link that covers most of the woods used in guitar manufacture, along with commentary about each type as to tonal characteristics. I tend to disagree with the bolded segment of his statement below (under mahogany in the FAQ).

 

"Production notes: There are many different kinds of Mahogany, and unless it has a sparkle to it like some of the Japanese and US guitars it will have a similar sound from one piece to the next. A nicer piece of mahogany has an iridescence to it usually combined with what looks like wide stripes, almost as if it’s been pieced together by multiple 1” strips. Catalog photos often reveal that the endorser gets a better piece than the production line."

 

http://www.jemsite.com/jem/wood.htm

[generation zero]

Words' date=' words, words...

 

There are many proponents of heavy, dense mahogany LPs, [b']irregardless[/b] of your opinion that weight is not the key.

 

More words, words, and seemingly endless words...

 

Peace dude,

 

Duffy

Winfield, Pa.

 

Sorry, but you tapped a pet peeve of mine... "irregardless" is not a real word, it is in fact a double negative, resulting in a meaning to the contrary of what you are trying to say. The word you are looking for is "regardless (of)", meaning "without regard (for)".

 

Can't speak for the rest of your post, you lost me two chapters in.

 

(as if I'm not just as guilty of being a message board novelist, LOL...)

[MarxBros]

 

Sorry' date=' but you tapped a pet peeve of mine... "irregardless" is not a real word

 

 

[/quote']BULLCRAP.

 

Microsoft Word even approves of it. I like it, I love it, it rolls off the tongue sooo smooth. Irregardless of your bizarre hangup over a word, it has gained acceptance.

[generation zero]

BULLCRAP.

 

Microsoft Word even approves of it. I like it' date=' I love it, it rolls off the tongue sooo smooth. Irregardless of your bizarre hangup over a word, it has gained acceptance. [/quote']

 

Real or not, it is rarely used properly, which is the cause of my "hangup"...

 

Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irregardless

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, my main reason for not liking the word is that my older brother used to misuse it habitually... I always told him it made him sound stupid, but he continued to use it out of spite. He was hit by a drunk driver and paralyzed from the neck down about 7 years ago... he finally passed away after 5 years of suffering... and since he had moved out of state before the accident, I didn't get a chance to visit him after his accident. Ever since his death, hearing "irregardless" used improperly brings up a ton of not so pleasant memories, as you can probably understand. I just wasn't going to go there, in an attempt to avoid anybody posting the violin playing smiley...

[Duffy]

I'm cool and don't mean to insult Maxbros. Appology offered if accepted.

 

I do know a few things, for an amateur. We all know things that few others know and we could all learn a lot if we listened better. Even know it all types know a lot about some things, you just have to try to figure out what it is and not get turned off by the know it all attitude.

 

I'll lighten it up but I think Maxbros should try to be a little less oppositional in his posts to peoples serious questions. It is a free forum and a lot of people that don't know Jack like to try to get some info.

 

I learned a lot from this thread about mahogany and a friend of mine just yesterday told me that Luan is Phillipine manogany and is actually of great beauty. How it sounds I don't know and the fact that it is really not a true mahogany is interesting. Did you know that Walleye Pikes are not in the Pike family like Northern Pikes are? Walleyes are more like a bass. Something like that, I might not have it exactly right.

 

Both of my Epi stds are very heavy. Don't know what type of mahogany is in them. It would be good to have access to that info. My new Squire '50s Classic Vibe strat is surprisingly light and is made from solid alder. Very nice guitar by the way.

 

I don't think the forum should be a list of technical papers, but I do think that people communicate differently from each other and that we should be ourselves. I have read some great technical paper type posts that I've learned a lot from and I've learned a lot from short but highly informative, at least to me, posts.

 

We should all be cool here and respect that we have a great forum and that people of all levels are participating; even people that have ideas about guitars that need clarification because they just don't know. I always ask questions that could sound very inexperienced, usually because I'm not experienced in the subject and I know that a lot of you great people are.

 

Not meaning to be heavy,

 

Peace,

 

Duffy,

Winfield, Pa

 

'08 EE plant Epiphone LP Standard Plus Top with Seymour Duncan '59 in neck position and a JB in the bidge position, evenly applied amber non-burst finish. Awesome sound. Flatwound strings at present, soon to be replaced.

 

[MarxBros]

I'm cool and don't mean to insult Maxbros. Appology offered if accepted.

I learned a lot from this thread about mahogany and a friend of mine just yesterday told me that Luan is Phillipine manogany and is actually

 

You didn't insult me, no need for any appology. My point was against the earlier statement that "weight is the key" .

 

Weight means nothing, I've played excessively heavy and extremely light LP's (and other magogany body guitars) and have never seen any correlation between weight and the overall sonic performance of the guitar. Folks would like to say XX pounds is the ideal weight, perhaps from a comfort standpoint, but it bears little fact to the sonic attributes of the guitar.

[Steven Lister]

My point was against the earlier statement that "weight is the key".

That was my statement...' date=' and when not taken out of the context in which I said it, it was meant as a "key" to knowing if the mahogany used was the lighter modern luan varieties or the heavier African or Honduran woods (which was the info the OP was seeking).

 

Weight means nothing' date=' I've played excessively heavy and extremely light LP's (and other magogany body guitars) and have never seen any correlation between weight and the overall sonic performance of the guitar. Folks would like to say XX pounds is the ideal weight, perhaps from a comfort standpoint, but it bears little fact to the sonic attributes of the guitar.[/quote']

On the right track, but not entirely accurate in my experience.

Heavy does not automatically equal greatness. There are too many variables -- non-wood related -- that factor in.

But extremely lightweight does seem to me to always come across as a tone lightweight as well. Not necessarily all bad b/c you may want a "thinner" sound for certain things. But compared to that classic low/mid LP growl of a vintage or Elitist LP the lighter mahogany LPs are tonal lightweights.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[MarxBros]

On the right track' date=' but not entirely accurate in my experience.

Heavy does not automatically equal greatness. There are too many variables -- non-wood related -- that factor in.

But extremely lightweight does seem to me to always come across as a tone lightweight as well. Not necessarily all bad b/c you may want a "thinner" sound for certain things. But compared to that classic low/mid LP growl of a vintage or Elitist LP the lighter mahogany LPs are tonal lightweights.[/quote']

 

I've played extraordinarily light LP's that had a great "voice". Until you've played a few dozen original 50's LP's to really get a feel what a real Les Paul is all about you really have little to base your comparision on as they ARE THE STANDARD. An Elite is a joke compared to a good original as is the bulk of the latter Gibson re-issues.

[Duffy]

I've got a beautiful and great sounding Squire solid mahogany strat with dual duncan designed humbuckers and that is a great guitar, for what it is, an inexpensive good playing, looking, feeling guitar. The wood grain is clearly visible thru a light, transparent, satin finish. Beautiful mahogany wood grain. The tone is outstanding. It is a little light compared to a regular standard strat but it is a little thinner, probably to keep the weight down. It is in the Squire Standard strat series. A few years old. Perfect. Still had the plastic on it when I bought it for the used price. My only strat with two humbuckers. Hot humbuckers too, by the way.

 

Duffy

 

This SX copy of a Gibson LP Special is solid mahogany pieces glued together side by side with a one piece solid mahogany set neck. The wood grain is beautiful and it is heavy for its size. Sounds great but would benefit from some really high quality pups or some GFS mean 90s or Dream 180s.

 

[Steven Lister]

MarxBros may be right about those 50s LPs. I have not played a single one much less dozens -- I'm not that old.

 

Of the 3-4 60's vintage Gibbys and a larger handful of 70s models that I played for more than five minutes only 3 of them to memory stacked up to any one of several Elitists played. And for me, I would rate only one of those on par with the 2003 Elite that I eventually chose to be my everynight gal.

 

All other Epis, including the EEs recently played, fall somewhere further down the sonic scale..., not the one that they they fail to tip for lack of weight.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[MarxBros]

I've got a beautiful and great sounding Squire solid mahogany strat with dual duncan designed humbuckers and that is a great guitar' date=' for what it is, an inexpensive good playing, looking, feeling guitar. [/quote']Those are very odd guitars, not sure what they were trying to accomplish with a 2 bucker "mahogany" strat, & I've yet to hear any "Duncan Designed" pups worth a hoot.

 

They are some of the most worthless buckers out there. They should just spend the extra money and put a Jazz/59 combo in all these imports with 'Designed" pups.

[MarxBros]

MarxBros may be right about those 50s LPs. I have not played a single one much less dozens -- I'm not that old.

 

Of the 3-4 60's vintage Gibbys and a larger handful of 70s models that I played for more than five minutes only 3 of them to memory stacked up to any one of several Elitists played. And for me' date=' I would rate only one of those on par with the 2003 Elite that I eventually chose to be my everynight gal.

[/quote']If that is the case your frame of reference is so limited as to make it difficult to even try and discuss the subject. I've played enough Elite to know they are nothing special, don't get me wrong they will do the job, but they are a far cry from a killer LP. There's tons of vintage "Tokai" out there that put the Elite to shame.

[Steven Lister]

If that is the case your frame of reference is so limited as to make it difficult to even try and discuss the subject. I've played enough Elite to know they are nothing special' date=' don't get me wrong they will do the job, but they are a far cry from a killer LP.[/quote']

Once again you may be right. The "subject" was that oh so stimulating this vs. that mahogany -- which will never be resolved except on a person by person basis.

 

Like most forum members under 40, I only wish for an oportunity to play those now "untouchable" vintage 50s and maybe someday.... Until then, my "standard" LP tone is based opon the guitars in my universe of mid-60s--forward vintage. So if my comments need adjustment to fit a more limited universe, then so be it.

 

Now where's my LP? It's time to head out the door and chisel off some what was it, "far cry from killer" blues tone for a few liquered-up patrons who won't know the difference anyway.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[MarxBros]

 

 

Now where's my LP? It's time to head out the door and chisel off some what was it' date=' "far cry from killer" blues tone for a few liquered-up patrons who won't know the difference anyway.

 

[/quote']Sadly you speak the truth, you could play a plastic toy guitar and most folks wouldn't know the difference.

 

The best time to appreciate a great guitar is actually not in the live venue, but when you're in your music room, and have total contol over the sound, I've found sonic nirvana out of a humble little old vintage Fender Champ wide open and a vintage 1954 LP Custom, liquid tone poured forth from the little Champ....

[cyberpunk409]

Don't wanna stray off topic here... but since some of you have already brought up elitists and elites and tokai's, i thought i'd mention an Edwards.

 

 

You get REAL mahogany (of the AFRICAN species), a REAL 1.5cm thick maple cap, long neck tenon, MIJ Gotoh Hardware, a TRUE one piece neck (neck heel, headstock and neck are 1 piece of wood - i've seen Orville by Gibson's, tokais, grecos, burny's that have glued heels - not true one piece necks!!), etc. And they come with Seymour Duncan's. By the time you spend making P'up upgrades and hardware upgrades, you might as well have bought a MIJ Edwards!

 

A non-veneered african mahogany body, 1 piece to boot!!!!!!

 

How do I know that it's cheaper to buy an Edwards rather than an epi and upgrade it?? cos i been there done that brother:

 

Sold it (made a MASSIVE loss) and bought the Edwards. You can't even begin to compare them! Learn from my mistake, if you're buying an Epi *WITH* the intention of fully upgrading it, DON'T!!!!

[Duffy]

Marxbro,

 

You are indeed antagonistic. Anyone says anything you don't agree with, you post some out of tune reply.

 

That mahagony Squire is fairly unique and sounds really great and there also are many many people who really really like the duncan designed humbuckers that come stock on some guitars. Your opinion is your opinion, not some sort of authoritative decree.

 

Since reading your derisive comments regarding heavy mahogany guitars I have read many posts where people attribute their excellent tone to the high density and heavy weight of the specific guitars they are comparing to other guitars with lesser tone.

 

Whatever your opinion is, others have opinions that are just as worthy and possibly more informed and quite possibly more correct and closer to the truth. Know what I mean.

 

The courtesy and tolerance of your acidic replys on this forum speaks a lot for the great group of people here. Why don't you substantiate your claims with anything other than your put downs?

 

Duffy

[EL-KABONG!]

Just feel like reminding those mired in pithy nuances like 'tonewood country of origin,' 'bumblebee capacitors' and # of butterflies taking a dump in japan at precise moment of manufacture:

 

Jimmy Page got excellent tone out of a masonite and plywood Sears Silvertone/Dano.

 

I am not implying that craftsmanship and quality materials mean nothing...but that maybe they aren't as important as all the zealots would have you believe.